Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 3L, Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:10 pm

tlc wrote:Hey NoleinNY,

I'm not sure whether you were aware and a participant of the TLS forums before you entered LLs, but how do you think the advice for 0L and 1Ls would compare to your experience in your first year. From what I gather from your posts, you had some events that threw off your grades so that they were less than ideal, but if you were doing it all over again, what would you suggest?

Follow Arrow's advice religiously? Don't burn out?


You need KNOW you have one of two things to succeed in school: a good support system or an iron will. You can't just assume you do. I've read a lot of the guides of how to succeed, and Arrow's is very good... But don't follow it religiously. His style may not work for you. If I could do it all over again, this is what I would've done (some of it I did do, some I didn't)

*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.

*Go to LA law books. Tell the guy who your professors are. Buy the books he advises (even if you don't buy them from him). He gets feedback from students and knows a ton of the professors and he knows what works best for who.

*I have a theory that seems validated based on people I know in law school and how they've adapted. I lump people into two categories: science and non-science backgrounds. For science, I'm lumping engineering, chem, math, etc.

Those people seem to, on average, have a better time understanding what I like to call "algorithmic classes;" that is, classes that ask you to put together a hundred different pieces in a specific process. Contracts, Civ Pro, and to a lesser extent, Conlaw are algorithmic classes. They have a harder time in what I like to call "elemental" classes, or classes where you need to understand things in chunks. These are Property, and Crim; torts is a bit of a hybrid class, since intentional and strict liability torts are elemental, but negligence is algorithmic.

Non-science people are the opposite; elemental classes come naturally and algorithmic classes are harder. Whichever is harder for you, buy the E&E and/or Hornbooks. Whatever is easier, just test yourself at the end of a chunk of material with other multiple choice questions or short hypos.

*Outlining: Useful, but overrated. I made true, complete outlines for some of my more complicated classes. For less complicated stuff (like property) create an "attack outline," which was a 3 page checklist of issues you have to cover.

*Type fast. You don't need to crank out 7000 words (and some professors have strict 3000 word limits anyway), but be able to do 25-60 wpm.

*More on exam taking:

Know the format your professor wants and follow it. Regardless of what that format is, you should spend the first 15-40 minutes just reading the prompt and outlining. I only know one person, a genius in another section, who could skip outlining after reading the question and crank out a treatise. Before halfway through the semester, he already had a 3 inch binder with a tabbed outline that he started to memorize. You do not need to be that crazy, unless you absolutely positively have a) a strong support system b) an iron will, AND c) a burning desire to be THE #1 IN YOUR CLASS BY 1000 MILES.

My property professor told us a story of a class he taught a couple years ago. Everyone had scored between 30-65 points (it's a curve, so that 65 was an A). Except one guy. This one guy had a 96. He had to get permission from the registrar and the dean to take the kid out of the curve just so everyone else would be fairly graded. The kid got an A+*. He did the same thing two more times in that professor's upper division classes. The guy was the #1 of his graduating class. To paraphrase the professor's description of him "He's a nice enough guy, just a bit odd. Not very social. He wound up working in corner office of a big law firm downtown doing transactional work. I went to see him and he told me his day consisted of people slipping paper under his door and him cranking out work product, leaving his office to go to the bathroom, eat or go home. Minimal interaction with people; he gets paid a ton of money, and he's happy."




I have more words of advice, but my browser keeps closing so I don't want to have to retype everything...

You may have noticed I mentioned having a support system and/or iron will to survive. Law school is hard. But life doesn't put itself on hold because you are taking class. You may get sick. Your (grand)parents may die. Your heart may be broken. Your car may breakdown. You're friends may come to you with problems of their own. Bills will have to be paid.

You may think you're unbeatable; you may think you have the mental and physical fortitude to power through the hardest 9 months you've had to deal with up to this point. Maybe you are all those things. Maybe not. For some people, will is enough. For others, friends/family/significant-others help you clear those obstacles. They help you keep things in perspective.

stowhat
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby stowhat » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:13 pm

NoleinNY wrote:*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.


Did you take your notes on a computer or by hand? And which would you recommend?

And thank you - this is really helpful.

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Shammis
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby Shammis » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:19 pm

This is a little self serving but....have you taken any classes with Greg Akselrud (business planning etc.) or Steve Goldstein? Know anyone that has?

Danteshek
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby Danteshek » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:56 pm

jstubbs wrote:This is a little self serving but....have you taken any classes with Greg Akselrud (business planning etc.) or Steve Goldstein? Know anyone that has?


No. I took Business Planning with Dana Warren. He is excellent. His 25 years of doing VC deals really came through in the course.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:22 pm

stowhat wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.


Did you take your notes on a computer or by hand? And which would you recommend?

And thank you - this is really helpful.


Oh, G~d, by computer. But that's me. I know people who did just fine and took notes by hand. It's whatever you're more comfortable with. I knew a few that took notes by hand, but did the exam on their laptop; the only time they brought a laptop to class was for March Madness.

I will say that my particular note taking style benefited from the marvels of modern technology. (read: a laptop and word processor)

I noticed that there was a 50/50 split among laptop notetakers between Word (or something like it) and OneNote. OneNote, if you are unaware, is a program that comes with MS Office that helps you organize notes. I have personally never used it but I know people who swear by it.

tl:dr - Whatever works best for you.

And no problem, stowhat. Glad I can be of some help.

schooner
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby schooner » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:52 pm

NoleinNY wrote:
stowhat wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.


Did you take your notes on a computer or by hand? And which would you recommend?

And thank you - this is really helpful.


Oh, G~d, by computer. But that's me. I know people who did just fine and took notes by hand. It's whatever you're more comfortable with. I knew a few that took notes by hand, but did the exam on their laptop; the only time they brought a laptop to class was for March Madness.

I will say that my particular note taking style benefited from the marvels of modern technology. (read: a laptop and word processor)

I noticed that there was a 50/50 split among laptop notetakers between Word (or something like it) and OneNote. OneNote, if you are unaware, is a program that comes with MS Office that helps you organize notes. I have personally never used it but I know people who swear by it.

tl:dr - Whatever works best for you.

And no problem, stowhat. Glad I can be of some help.


I popped in here to read what you wrote about OneNote and saw your earlier post w/ the great advice and the insight about elemental vs. algorithmic type of classes. Very interesting and helpful. Thanks!

By the way, I have OneNote 2007 and really like it. I love being able to put my mouse pointer anywhere on the page and just type. For example, you can go back to an earlier note, click beside it, and add a clarification in another text box. (Moving the text boxes around is a hassle, though.) You can tag each of your comment boxes, sort of like how you can tag blog posts. You can create outlines with subheadings that you can collapse/expand with one button. You can take screen shots and cut-paste them into your notes. And OneNote makes it easier to keep all your notes together.

On the other hand, I think using just Word is fine too. I don't think anyone using Word would necessarily be at a disadvantage. But that opinion hasn't been tested in an actual law class.

If you go on ebay, you can get OneNote 2007 for $15 or less. Not sure if the 2010 version is worth the upgrade cost.

You can try out the trial version of 2007 by downloading it here: http://www.mydigitallife.info/direct-do ... lications/ (If you like it, you can buy the CD later just for the product registration key.) The trial OneNote on Microsoft's website is the 2010 version.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:29 am

schooner wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:
stowhat wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.


Did you take your notes on a computer or by hand? And which would you recommend?

And thank you - this is really helpful.


Oh, G~d, by computer. But that's me. I know people who did just fine and took notes by hand. It's whatever you're more comfortable with. I knew a few that took notes by hand, but did the exam on their laptop; the only time they brought a laptop to class was for March Madness.

I will say that my particular note taking style benefited from the marvels of modern technology. (read: a laptop and word processor)

I noticed that there was a 50/50 split among laptop notetakers between Word (or something like it) and OneNote. OneNote, if you are unaware, is a program that comes with MS Office that helps you organize notes. I have personally never used it but I know people who swear by it.

tl:dr - Whatever works best for you.

And no problem, stowhat. Glad I can be of some help.


I popped in here to read what you wrote about OneNote and saw your earlier post w/ the great advice and the insight about elemental vs. algorithmic type of classes. Very interesting and helpful. Thanks!

By the way, I have OneNote 2007 and really like it. I love being able to put my mouse pointer anywhere on the page and just type. For example, you can go back to an earlier note, click beside it, and add a clarification in another text box. (Moving the text boxes around is a hassle, though.) You can tag each of your comment boxes, sort of like how you can tag blog posts. You can create outlines with subheadings that you can collapse/expand with one button. You can take screen shots and cut-paste them into your notes. And OneNote makes it easier to keep all your notes together.

On the other hand, I think using just Word is fine too. I don't think anyone using Word would necessarily be at a disadvantage. But that opinion hasn't been tested in an actual law class.

If you go on ebay, you can get OneNote 2007 for $15 or less. Not sure if the 2010 version is worth the upgrade cost.

You can try out the trial version of 2007 by downloading it here: http://www.mydigitallife.info/direct-do ... lications/ (If you like it, you can buy the CD later just for the product registration key.) The trial OneNote on Microsoft's website is the 2010 version.


Are you some guerilla marketer for Microsoft? :P

schooner
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby schooner » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:32 am

Are you some guerilla marketer for Microsoft? :P


Yup.

071816
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:28 pm

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Last edited by 071816 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danteshek
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby Danteshek » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:52 pm

chimp wrote:Is Loyola on a 3.0 curve or is it 3.2 nowadays?


1L curve was 3.17 this year. But the time you graduate it is 3.32. This obviously changes slightly each year.

Cumulative GPA Ranking Cut-Offs
[2010-2011 Academic Year]
Students Top 5% Top 10% Top 15% Top 20% Top 25% Top 30% Top 35% Top 40% Top 50%
First Year Day 329 3.99 3.8 3.68 3.58 3.5 3.41 3.36 3.29 3.17
First Year Evening 65 4.09 4.06 3.94 3.76 3.7 3.46 3.31 3.19 3.07
Second-Year Day 336 4.01 3.82 3.75 3.66 3.58 3.49 3.43 3.39 3.24
Second-Year Evening 50 4.22 3.96 3.79 3.56 3.54 3.47 3.41 3.32 3.23
Third-Year Day 344 3.97 3.82 3.75 3.68 3.59 3.55 3.5 3.41 3.32
Third-Year Evening 77 3.92 3.75 3.62 3.57 3.54 3.47 3.43 3.34 3.16
Fourth-Year Evening 87 3.98 3.83 3.77 3.64 3.56 3.44 3.39 3.36 3.21

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Judge Philip Banks
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby Judge Philip Banks » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:22 am

Danteshek wrote:
chimp wrote:Is Loyola on a 3.0 curve or is it 3.2 nowadays?


1L curve was 3.17 this year. But the time you graduate it is 3.32. This obviously changes slightly each year.

Cumulative GPA Ranking Cut-Offs
[2010-2011 Academic Year]
Students Top 5% Top 10% Top 15% Top 20% Top 25% Top 30% Top 35% Top 40% Top 50%
First Year Day 329 3.99 3.8 3.68 3.58 3.5 3.41 3.36 3.29 3.17
First Year Evening 65 4.09 4.06 3.94 3.76 3.7 3.46 3.31 3.19 3.07
Second-Year Day 336 4.01 3.82 3.75 3.66 3.58 3.49 3.43 3.39 3.24
Second-Year Evening 50 4.22 3.96 3.79 3.56 3.54 3.47 3.41 3.32 3.23
Third-Year Day 344 3.97 3.82 3.75 3.68 3.59 3.55 3.5 3.41 3.32
Third-Year Evening 77 3.92 3.75 3.62 3.57 3.54 3.47 3.43 3.34 3.16
Fourth-Year Evening 87 3.98 3.83 3.77 3.64 3.56 3.44 3.39 3.36 3.21

Data found HERE with more info. There is lots of info/data on the registrar's website.

071816
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:21 am

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Last edited by 071816 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

tlc
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby tlc » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:40 pm

NoleinNY wrote:
tlc wrote:Hey NoleinNY,

I'm not sure whether you were aware and a participant of the TLS forums before you entered LLs, but how do you think the advice for 0L and 1Ls would compare to your experience in your first year. From what I gather from your posts, you had some events that threw off your grades so that they were less than ideal, but if you were doing it all over again, what would you suggest?

Follow Arrow's advice religiously? Don't burn out?


You need KNOW you have one of two things to succeed in school: a good support system or an iron will. You can't just assume you do. I've read a lot of the guides of how to succeed, and Arrow's is very good... But don't follow it religiously. His style may not work for you. If I could do it all over again, this is what I would've done (some of it I did do, some I didn't)

*Take good notes. Specifically, take notes appropriate for the professor. Sometimes, it's best to take notes in a sort of proto-outline format with a separate set of notes just for cases. Sometimes the professor will provide you with a template and you just fill in the blanks, etc. You should be able to figure out in the first few weeks which style works for whom.

*Go to LA law books. Tell the guy who your professors are. Buy the books he advises (even if you don't buy them from him). He gets feedback from students and knows a ton of the professors and he knows what works best for who.

*I have a theory that seems validated based on people I know in law school and how they've adapted. I lump people into two categories: science and non-science backgrounds. For science, I'm lumping engineering, chem, math, etc.

Those people seem to, on average, have a better time understanding what I like to call "algorithmic classes;" that is, classes that ask you to put together a hundred different pieces in a specific process. Contracts, Civ Pro, and to a lesser extent, Conlaw are algorithmic classes. They have a harder time in what I like to call "elemental" classes, or classes where you need to understand things in chunks. These are Property, and Crim; torts is a bit of a hybrid class, since intentional and strict liability torts are elemental, but negligence is algorithmic.

Non-science people are the opposite; elemental classes come naturally and algorithmic classes are harder. Whichever is harder for you, buy the E&E and/or Hornbooks. Whatever is easier, just test yourself at the end of a chunk of material with other multiple choice questions or short hypos.

*Outlining: Useful, but overrated. I made true, complete outlines for some of my more complicated classes. For less complicated stuff (like property) create an "attack outline," which was a 3 page checklist of issues you have to cover.

*Type fast. You don't need to crank out 7000 words (and some professors have strict 3000 word limits anyway), but be able to do 25-60 wpm.

*More on exam taking:

Know the format your professor wants and follow it. Regardless of what that format is, you should spend the first 15-40 minutes just reading the prompt and outlining. I only know one person, a genius in another section, who could skip outlining after reading the question and crank out a treatise. Before halfway through the semester, he already had a 3 inch binder with a tabbed outline that he started to memorize. You do not need to be that crazy, unless you absolutely positively have a) a strong support system b) an iron will, AND c) a burning desire to be THE #1 IN YOUR CLASS BY 1000 MILES.

My property professor told us a story of a class he taught a couple years ago. Everyone had scored between 30-65 points (it's a curve, so that 65 was an A). Except one guy. This one guy had a 96. He had to get permission from the registrar and the dean to take the kid out of the curve just so everyone else would be fairly graded. The kid got an A+*. He did the same thing two more times in that professor's upper division classes. The guy was the #1 of his graduating class. To paraphrase the professor's description of him "He's a nice enough guy, just a bit odd. Not very social. He wound up working in corner office of a big law firm downtown doing transactional work. I went to see him and he told me his day consisted of people slipping paper under his door and him cranking out work product, leaving his office to go to the bathroom, eat or go home. Minimal interaction with people; he gets paid a ton of money, and he's happy."




I have more words of advice, but my browser keeps closing so I don't want to have to retype everything...

You may have noticed I mentioned having a support system and/or iron will to survive. Law school is hard. But life doesn't put itself on hold because you are taking class. You may get sick. Your (grand)parents may die. Your heart may be broken. Your car may breakdown. You're friends may come to you with problems of their own. Bills will have to be paid.

You may think you're unbeatable; you may think you have the mental and physical fortitude to power through the hardest 9 months you've had to deal with up to this point. Maybe you are all those things. Maybe not. For some people, will is enough. For others, friends/family/significant-others help you clear those obstacles. They help you keep things in perspective.


Thanks for the awesome reply.

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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:58 am

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Last edited by 071816 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:57 am

chimp wrote:How many firms will be at OCI?


I think fewer than normal; I think about 85-90 individual firms came this year. It says 95 but some firms are represented multiple times with different offices. Not entirely sure why; I think it is so you can bid on multiple locations as opposed to choosing one? Or maybe it's just a glitch. Idk. I didn't even bother doing OCI. My grades were not high enough to get it even if I wanted that kind of work (which I don't.) There is a Spring OCI for Small and Mid-Sized firms which I am considering bidding on if I can't line up a 2L summer job by then.

071816
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:22 pm

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Last edited by 071816 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:44 am

chimp wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:
chimp wrote:How many firms will be at OCI?


I think fewer than normal; I think about 85-90 individual firms came this year. It says 95 but some firms are represented multiple times with different offices. Not entirely sure why; I think it is so you can bid on multiple locations as opposed to choosing one? Or maybe it's just a glitch. Idk. I didn't even bother doing OCI. My grades were not high enough to get it even if I wanted that kind of work (which I don't.) There is a Spring OCI for Small and Mid-Sized firms which I am considering bidding on if I can't line up a 2L summer job by then.


Interesting. Would you say that the majority of people that you know participated in OCI?


A lot of my friends are participating, although that's because I am (by coincidence) friends with a lot of people in the top of the class; it's a pretty close split. Not sure how representative that is of our class as a whole.

071816
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:16 pm

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Last edited by 071816 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:09 am

chimp wrote:Is it possible to grade on to Law Review?


I think if you are top 10% you can grade on.

Danteshek
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby Danteshek » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:11 am

chimp wrote:Is it possible to grade on to Law Review?


Typically LLR will invite students in the top 5 percent who submit an acceptable write-on. I am on LLR, so you can take this at face value. We could not possibly take everyone in the top 10 percent and also give the rest of the class a meaningful opportunity.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:23 am

Danteshek wrote:
chimp wrote:Is it possible to grade on to Law Review?


Typically LLR will invite students in the top 5 percent who submit an acceptable write-on. I am on LLR, so you can take this at face value. We could not possibly take everyone in the top 10 percent and also give the rest of the class a meaningful opportunity.


Yeah, I remembered it was up there (and I wasn't one of them).

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medical malpractice lawyer louisiana

Postby Toronto5 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:30 am

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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby 071816 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:49 pm

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Last edited by 071816 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NoleinNY
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby NoleinNY » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:19 pm

chimp wrote:Top 5 tips you guys would give an incoming Loyola 1L?


The stuff I've written previously, imo, should be handed out to every incoming 1L. As for other stuff...:

Learn to plan and compartmentalize.
Be ready to hit the ground running; take advantage of everyone trying to find their footing.
Stay healthy
Don't miss class.
Be realistic, but not cynical.

seaguy2010
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Re: Loyola Law School - Los Angeles 1L (2L), Taking Questions

Postby seaguy2010 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:14 am

I just got my 1L schedule and I have the following professors for Fall:

I have Murray (Crim), Aragaki (Contracts), Grossi (Civ Pro), Petherbridge (Property)

Any input on these professors/classes? Thanks




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