Canadian Resident taking questions. Forum

[Noval]

I submitted the electronic application and mailed the documents today.

Don't worry if your status takes way too long to change on Minerva, it's normal.

Am I supposed to be able to get on this now?

Call them and ask when does the Minerva status opens or change, i can't really comment on this since the dates are different every year, i don't want to turn it into a bias fest.

[Seally]

Sorry, i'm kind of ignorant on Canadian Law. What are the top Canadians schools, and what are their medians?

The top schools are as follow:

1:UofT and McGill (It changes every year so both are considered top, UofT is good for Bay street hiring, McGill is good for both Bay St/International Hiring, even for U.S. firms.)
Those are the two bests in Canada, if you can get there, getting a BigLaw job will be a breeze.McGill costs a lot less for QC residents as Government covers most of the tuition, 3,900/year...

2:Osgoode hall from York University is also a great one even though campus is ugly as hell.Ranked 3rd best Law School in Canada, it has amazing employment prospects and the best "non-related" opportunities, many Canadian Investment Bankers or Management Consultants who did Law and re-oriented their career went there.

3:UBC is great too, good placement numbers.

4:University of Alberta is an amazing place if you want to focus on Energy Law since Oil is raining there and lots of firms focusing on the field recruit there.

5: UVic is not as bad as people may say, but it's not amazing either.

6: Western Ontario is also good, same as UVic regarding BigLaw hiring, which means decent for hard working students.

Canadian market is much more stable than the U.S. one, a student who got good grades from a no name school can still break in biglaw in local market, quick example: University of Montreal have amazing placement rates to MTL Biglaw .

I know that too much Canadian Students brag about how UofT is the "best Canadian Law School", but when you compare it with McGill, it's nothing.

McGill has a better image worldwide and much better alumni base than what UofT has.
UofT is only good for Bay St hiring and other than that, nothing is "better than other Law Schools".

Leading offices from Europe, Asia, NYC, Boston come to McGill to recruit while only Bay St firms, some U.S. Big Firms and a few other employers show up to recruit in UofT.
Do not fall for the hype, Maclean's may have ranked McGill 3rd, but when you compare with UofT in the long run, McGill grads always end up holding respectable positions.
Not saying UofT is bad, it's just that people need to shut up about it and accept the fact that McGill is the new player in Canada.

Oh, and gaining acceptance to McGill Law is much more challenging than it is for UofT.
McGill looks at GPA, ECs, LoRs, Community Involvement, Leadership skills, Awards while
UofT looks at GPA, LSAT, LoRs to weight 95% of a decision.

[niederbomb]

Seally wrote:

UofT looks at GPA, LSAT, LoRs to weight 95% of a decision

I thought UofT didn't generally consider LOR's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope not because I didn't submit any. Sent some good ones to McGill, though.

I take it you go to school at McGill?

What are the chances they will try to interview me in French before late Feb?

I really only care about Asia/China reputation, not European/U.S. rep. How do UBC/UofT/McGill compare in this respect?

[Seally]

Seally wrote:

UofT looks at GPA, LSAT, LoRs to weight 95% of a decision

I thought UofT didn't generally consider LOR's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope not because I didn't submit any. Sent some good ones to McGill, though.

I take it you go to school at McGill?

What are the chances they will try to interview me in French before late Feb?

I really only care about Asia/China reputation, not European/U.S. rep. How do UBC/UofT/McGill compare in this respect?

UBC is slowly going down the ranks and is not considered "good" anywhere outside U.S. and Canada, UofT is not bad for Europe, but almost nobody recognizes UofT as "superior" in Asia or anywhere else.For McGill, it's reputation is well known pretty much everywhere, simply because there are a LOT of International students going there, you want the proof ? Travel in Asian big cities for a month and find the big firms there, talk with their Attorneys and ask them if they know about McGill and UofT, 99% will say yes for McGill, 95% will say not for UofT.

Not hating, just exposing the facts.

Don't worry for the LoRs in UofT, if you have decent GPA, LSAT scores, you will stand a good chance.

[niederbomb]

I wonder what my chances are at UofT. For one thing, I'm not sure how they will calculate my best 3 of 4 years. I went to a Community College, not full time 6-8 hours per semester for 1 year while still in high school. Then, I graduated from a four-year university in 3 years. My worst year (3.82) was my first year at the four-year college when I started as a bio-chem major. Overall, I have a 3.92.

I have 162 on the LSAT and am retaking in three weeks. What score do you think I'll need to get UofT? I think around 167.

McGill is my first choice for Canadian schools, but I'm not sure yet how I'm going to get past the French interview. I know Spanish, 0 French, and I don't plan to study French for a significant period of time each day until after the December LSAT. But I am pretty damned good at languages. What level do they expect?

Also, if not UBC, what other Canadian school would you suggest applying to? I'm definitely going to Canada if I don't get into a T6 or a T15 with significant money.

[canuck]

Sorry, i'm kind of ignorant on Canadian Law. What are the top Canadians schools, and what are their medians?

The top schools are as follow:

1:UofT and McGill (It changes every year so both are considered top, UofT is good for Bay street hiring, McGill is good for both Bay St/International Hiring, even for U.S. firms.)
Those are the two bests in Canada, if you can get there, getting a BigLaw job will be a breeze.McGill costs a lot less for QC residents as Government covers most of the tuition, 3,900/year...

2:Osgoode hall from York University is also a great one even though campus is ugly as hell.Ranked 3rd best Law School in Canada, it has amazing employment prospects and the best "non-related" opportunities, many Canadian Investment Bankers or Management Consultants who did Law and re-oriented their career went there.

3:UBC is great too, good placement numbers.

4:University of Alberta is an amazing place if you want to focus on Energy Law since Oil is raining there and lots of firms focusing on the field recruit there.

5: UVic is not as bad as people may say, but it's not amazing either.

6: Western Ontario is also good, same as UVic regarding BigLaw hiring, which means decent for hard working students.

Canadian market is much more stable than the U.S. one, a student who got good grades from a no name school can still break in biglaw in local market, quick example: University of Montreal have amazing placement rates to MTL Biglaw .

I know that too much Canadian Students brag about how UofT is the "best Canadian Law School", but when you compare it with McGill, it's nothing.

McGill has a better image worldwide and much better alumni base than what UofT has.
UofT is only good for Bay St hiring and other than that, nothing is "better than other Law Schools".

Leading offices from Europe, Asia, NYC, Boston come to McGill to recruit while only Bay St firms, some U.S. Big Firms and a few other employers show up to recruit in UofT.
Do not fall for the hype, Maclean's may have ranked McGill 3rd, but when you compare with UofT in the long run, McGill grads always end up holding respectable positions.
Not saying UofT is bad, it's just that people need to shut up about it and accept the fact that McGill is the new player in Canada.

Oh, and gaining acceptance to McGill Law is much more challenging than it is for UofT.
McGill looks at GPA, ECs, LoRs, Community Involvement, Leadership skills, Awards while
UofT looks at GPA, LSAT, LoRs to weight 95% of a decision.

This is blatant McGill trolling. McGill's law school is solid. It does have some international reach because of McGill's general reputation, but you can't seriously argue that it is better than U of T Law.

U of T has been considered Canada's premier law school for decades. It graduates a ridiculous amount of successful people. I'm not even going to get into specifics, but you know you are wrong and there is no debate to be had.

(note: I go to McGill undergrad)

[niederbomb]

canuck wrote:

This is blatant McGill trolling. McGill's law school is solid. It does have some international reach because of McGill's general reputation, but you can't seriously argue that it is better than U of T Law.

U of T has been considered Canada's premier law school for decades. It graduates a ridiculous amount of successful people. I'm not even going to get into specifics, but you know you are wrong and there is no debate to be had.

(note: I go to McGill undergrad)

So is the previous poster wrong about UBC, too? I have applied to UofT and McGill and plan to apply to UBC. Should I not even waste the money? I like the prospects of cheap tuition (relative to U.S. law schools, yes, even at UofT), better connections to Asia, and a better job market offered by some Canadian law schools.

I'm not sure how UBC could be declining in the rankings because aren't Canadian law schools more regional than tiered? Unless some other schools is picking up the slack in Vancouver... Too many differing opinions (lol).

[canuck]

canuck wrote:

This is blatant McGill trolling. McGill's law school is solid. It does have some international reach because of McGill's general reputation, but you can't seriously argue that it is better than U of T Law.

U of T has been considered Canada's premier law school for decades. It graduates a ridiculous amount of successful people. I'm not even going to get into specifics, but you know you are wrong and there is no debate to be had.

(note: I go to McGill undergrad)

So is the previous poster wrong about UBC, too? I have applied to UofT and McGill and plan to apply to UBC. Should I not even waste the money? I like the prospects of cheap tuition (relative to U.S. law schools, yes, even at UofT), better connections to Asia, and a better job market offered by some Canadian law schools.

I'm not sure how UBC could be declining in the rankings because aren't Canadian law schools more regional than tiered? Unless some other schools is picking up the slack in Vancouver... Too many differing opinions (lol).

Ya it's because these people are defending their choices/their options. I'm applying as well and I know lots of people who have gone to these schools/have done lots of research so here is my advice:

1) If you get in, go to University of Toronto. It is more expensive, but it is the uncontested #1 and still much cheaper than American schools. Plus, that extra money goes towards better profs, services, etc.

2) Afterwards, McGill and Osgoode (York) at both good options. McGill is different in that it has both civil and common law so you'll have to know French and it will take minimum of 3.5 years to complete your degrees. Osgoode doesn't place as well as Toronto, but it has a great academic reputation.

3) After that the rankings are pretty random and change quite often. UBC is up there now, but a couple years ago it was ranked 8th. IMO best options are UBC, Ottawa U, Dalhousie, Queens.

4) Any Canadian law school (maybe Calgary excluded) is a great law school. You'll have good job options afterwards. There are no TTT schools.

Finally, a warning about McGill. We are dirt poor. The Quebec government has been starving McGill and is refusing to let us raise tuition rates. Cut backs are never ending. There are less TAs, less office hours, and overall less resources than is necessary. It's reputation is strong, but IMO McGill is a sinking ship.

[Seally]

UofT is NOT more extensive, who cares abut what ranking says in Canada ? UofT is the first ? Osgoode still have the largest amount of Investment Banker turned Lawyers.

UofT is not as good as before and is just OVER RATED, people need to stop claiming it's the best, i have friends there and they told me that curriculum is not any better and placement rate is similar to McGill's stats.
You base your thoughts only by checking the "1st" on ranking list but can't use any other valuable arguments, UofT is the first simply because It's in Canada's biggest economic center and unless you aim Bay Street hiring, there's absolutely no point at going to UofT.

The guy who asked about Asian Market wants to work there, not Bay Street, that means he needs International Reputation, not National Overhyping and that means he should to go at McGill.

Only McGill's MBA tuition along with some other programs raised drastically, McGill Faculty of Law didn't raise it's tuition at all, UofT is overpriced and is simply useless for him, you want a better alumni base working in Asian firms ? Go to McGill.


But that's your choice, if McGill was so inferior to UofT, they wouldn't have placed students on International Supreme Court Clerkships with a few other American Ivy League Schools.

[Seally]

3) After that the rankings are pretty random and change quite often. UBC is up there now, but a couple years ago it was ranked 8th. IMO best options are UBC, Ottawa U, Dalhousie, Queens.

You said it yourself, rankings do not justify UofT's overrall reputation in any way, McGill simply offers more mobility wether you like it or not, not hating or trying to be a fanboy, but it's just the truth.

UofT is good, but McGill is simply on a higher Level, no need to argue about it.

[canuck]

They clearly have done a fabulous job of teaching you to analyze an argument......

Maybe re-read what I wrote and try again.

[niederbomb]

I think what you guys are saying isn't incompatible necessary, just from different angles:

1) Seally says: McGill is better known internationally and is better than anything except U.S. ivy leagues/Oxbridge if you want to work for the U.N. McGill's degree is Common Law/Civil Law, so it's more mobile than just a Common Law degree. McGill also places almost as well as UofT in BigLaw, so you've got everything to gain and nothing to lose by going there over UofT.

2) Canuck says: UofT is in Canada's economic center, is the nation's flagship university, and places more people into Bay Street (and probably Wall Street, too) than any other Canadian uni. UofT also has more monetary resources and, as a university, ranks higher in most worldwide rankings (e.g. QS Good University Rankings) than McGill does.

Maybe both of these points of view are true. Some facts would be useful though.

The only way to actually solve this debate would be to look up all the Commonwealth law firms in Hong Kong/Beijing/Singapore/Shanghai and see which Canadian uni is best represented. My guess: UofT=McGill>UBC>Osgoode. Could be wrong. I'll do this if and when I have to make a choice.

Certainly, it's worth nothing that you don't find many people in China dying to learn French on top of English, so I wonder how many many Asian law alumni McGill actually has. Everyone I know (Asian) is either applying to/has attended UBC or UofT.

I wouldn't mind working on Bay Street anyway. IMO NYC>Toronto>DC>Chicago>rest of North America. But I've never been to Montreal, so maybe I'm biased.

I'd definitely choose McGill over a sticker at some T14 U.S. law schools, and the same goes for UofT.

[canuck]

I think what you guys are saying isn't incompatible necessary, just from different angles:

1) Seally says: McGill is better known internationally and is better than anything except U.S. ivy leagues/Oxbridge if you want to work for the U.N. McGill's degree is Common Law/Civil Law, so it's more mobile than just a Common Law degree. McGill also places almost as well as UofT in BigLaw, so you've got everything to gain and nothing to lose by going there over UofT.

2) Canuck says: UofT is in Canada's economic center, is the nation's flagship university, and places more people into Bay Street (and probably Wall Street, too) than any other Canadian uni. UofT also has more monetary resources and, as a university, ranks higher in most worldwide rankings (e.g. QS Good University Rankings) than McGill does.

Maybe both of these points of view are true. Some facts would be useful though.

The only way to actually solve this debate would be to look up all the Commonwealth law firms in Hong Kong/Beijing/Singapore/Shanghai and see which Canadian uni is best represented. My guess: UofT=McGill>UBC>Osgoode. Could be wrong. I'll do this if and when I have to make a choice.

Certainly, it's worth nothing that you don't find many people in China dying to learn French on top of English, so I wonder how many many Asian law alumni McGill actually has. Everyone I know (Asian) is either applying to/has attended UBC or UofT.

I wouldn't mind working on Bay Street anyway. IMO NYC>Toronto>DC>Chicago>rest of North America. But I've never been to Montreal, so maybe I'm biased.

I'd definitely choose McGill over a sticker at some T14 U.S. law schools, and the same goes for UofT.

Yup you'll be in good shape at either. Good luck.

[coolymx]

Lol I'm not a big fan of UofT (I chose not to go there for undergrad), and I don't know too much about the legal market in Asia, but from a layman's perspective, I think the statement that McGill's reputation is much stronger that UofT in Asia may be a little exaggerated.

As an Asian myself, and having been to Taiwan, China, Korea, and Japan for extended periods of time, I can tell you based on my experiences that more people have heard of the name UofT than McGill, and many think UofT is more prestigious than MgGill (hell, many there think the ONLY prestigious institution in Canada is UofT, which is an opinion that I am against but cannot alter). The people whom I spoke with range from undergrads to graduate students, to educators and professionals, and also a good deal of average joes.

Whether this fascination with UofT holds true in the Asian legal market I am not certain. I do know that over there they tend to value the American J.D. more than a Canadian one, just because of the university's overall reputation.

Still, if there is some sort of association in Asia between the general public's opinion on the prestigiousness of an institution and the law firms' opinion on the prestigiousness of an institution (and I suspect there is), then the assumption of McGill > UofT does not stand entirely correct. Given its popularity and status as "THE university" in Canada, a J.D. from UofT should still be quite popular in Asia.

While it may not necessarily give you a huge boost in terms of job prospects (we all know that employers look at more than a piece of paper), I believe a UofT J.D. will give you an slight edge against competition from certain other (regional/national) law schools, and that it will definately not put you at a disadvantage against competition (maybe except against Harvard and Yale grads, but hey, who isn't at a disadvantage when competing against them?).


Again, this is just purely my opinion, so don't kill me over it! =D

[coolymx]

Yup you'll be in good shape at either. Good luck.

Canuck are you applying to Canadian schools or U.S? And what are your future ambitions? It's nice to see some canadians on this board (despite our differences of opinion on who's the better hockey team in Ontario).

[tng11]

...

[coolymx]

For the Canadians here, what is your rationale for applying to the U.S.?

This question has been stuck on my mind for the last while, because I'm not 100% sure I actually want to work in the US after graduation, but at the same time I want a change of venue (a.k.a. move out of Toronto). The more I think about it, the less appealing $250K worth of debt looks (In all likelihood I'll be paying sticker at T14) but I really want to do Columbia ED next cycle as I would love to live in NYC. Just a confused guy overall.

I can't speak for others, but I will speak for myself. I am in a situation very similar to you, in that I will probably pay sticker for attending a T14, and I have applied ED to Columbia cuz of my wierd love for NYC.

One reason why I applied to the U.S. is exactly what you said - I wanted a change of scenary. But then again, I am still struggling in deciding whether its worth going south of the border just to live a more "interesting life", since competition is much more fierce, tuition much higher, and where we are at a disadvantage for jobs because of our status as Canadians (though the truth of this last point is still disputed). One could easily argue for us torontoians, going to UBC, UVic, or McGill if you spoke French, would also be a great change of scenary, with much less of a cost and an education that you really can't complain about. (personally, I am very much tempted to attend UBC, and may still end up going there instead)

So beyond the desire to move to a new environment, the main reason why I am even considering such a high risk, expensive investment is the prestige these institutions offer. I fancy persuing an international career, and unfortunately, the Canadian Law schools simply don't get recognized enough outside of Canada (maybe as far as the borders of North America, but not much further than that). This is quite sad, because our law schools really do offer great education and produce fantastic lawyers, but in the legal world, as it is in the rest of the world, the brand is what most people are concerned with. The US schools are much more valued in the international community, much more valued by professionals and scholars alike, so theoretically, getting a J.D. from those schools will give you a slight edge on the international frontier.

As the posts above suggest, UofT and McGill do have some international credibility, but those are out of the picture for me since one is in Toronto (a city which I love but needs to get out for awhile), and one requires me to parle francais, which I don’t.

All said and done, I am still very confused, probably just as much as you are, about where to go.

[Seally]

For the Canadians here, what is your rationale for applying to the U.S.?

This question has been stuck on my mind for the last while, because I'm not 100% sure I actually want to work in the US after graduation, but at the same time I want a change of venue (a.k.a. move out of Toronto). The more I think about it, the less appealing $250K worth of debt looks (In all likelihood I'll be paying sticker at T14) but I really want to do Columbia ED next cycle as I would love to live in NYC. Just a confused guy overall.

I can't speak for others, but I will speak for myself. I am in a situation very similar to you, in that I will probably pay sticker for attending a T14, and I have applied ED to Columbia cuz of my wierd love for NYC.

One reason why I applied to the U.S. is exactly what you said - I wanted a change of scenary. But then again, I am still struggling in deciding whether its worth going south of the border just to live a more "interesting life", since competition is much more fierce, tuition much higher, and where we are at a disadvantage for jobs because of our status as Canadians (though the truth of this last point is still disputed). One could easily argue for us torontoians, going to UBC, UVic, or McGill if you spoke French, would also be a great change of scenary, with much less of a cost and an education that you really can't complain about. (personally, I am very much tempted to attend UBC, and may still end up going there instead)

So beyond the desire to move to a new environment, the main reason why I am even considering such a high risk, expensive investment is the prestige these institutions offer. I fancy persuing an international career, and unfortunately, the Canadian Law schools simply don't get recognized enough outside of Canada (maybe as far as the borders of North America, but not much further than that). This is quite sad, because our law schools really do offer great education and produce fantastic lawyers, but in the legal world, as it is in the rest of the world, the brand is what most people are concerned with. The US schools are much more valued in the international community, much more valued by professionals and scholars alike, so theoretically, getting a J.D. from those schools will give you a slight edge on the international frontier.

As the posts above suggest, UofT and McGill do have some international credibility, but those are out of the picture for me since one is in Toronto (a city which I love but needs to get out for awhile), and one requires me to parle francais, which I don’t.

All said and done, I am still very confused, probably just as much as you are, about where to go.

Just study in Canada, avoid getting ridiculous debts and move to U.S., the system at McGill Law is designed to make both Anglos and Frenchies do well on the program, you don't even have to learn French at all, as long as you can read it and actually understand the meaning of words, you're done.
Still, if you have impressible stats, just apply to T-14s for the hell of it and see if you can get a scholarship, maybe even a full-ride, if you're one of the lucky ones, go there, if not, stick with Canadian Institutions, no TTTs in Canada, BigLaw is achievable everywhere here, except in the low ranked Civil Law Schools in Quebec and Windsor, Vic and Moncton where you'll have to work a little bit harder to achieve your goals.

Anyways, i don't know what's all this hype about UofT vs McGill Debate, you CAN'T go wrong at both, but if you actually want to have a decent shot at Asian firms(To answer the question asked by another user), the Asian Alumni base from McGill is a little bit more desirable, especially judging the fact that more Asian Offices DO show up at McGill to recruit Asian students.

Both Universities will allow you to hold respectable positions in U.S., Wall Street, F500 Companies, just pick the one that suits you best.

[canuck]

Yup you'll be in good shape at either. Good luck.

Canuck are you applying to Canadian schools or U.S? And what are your future ambitions? It's nice to see some canadians on this board (despite our differences of opinion on who's the better hockey team in Ontario).

Haha well the Leafers and Sens are both hurting right now so at least we can relate.
I have applied to about 18 US schools and 3 in Ontario. I'm really really really struggling to decide whether or not to stay or go. I've also EDed Columbia (good luck to us all lol). My biggest attraction to the US is honestly the much bigger money BigLaw lawyers make. Canada is attractive becaue I love it and the legal market seems more stable and less competitive. Tough call! I don't care so much about the debt as I can pay cash for a lot of it and then pay it off once I have a job (bad economy or not, you're getting a jon with a T14 law degree). Do you guys/girls have any insight as to what BigLaw lawyers make on Bay Street in the first few years?

Also: future career ambitions is sports law.

[tng11]

...

[niederbomb]

I think the prestige of U.S. law schools is easy to overstate. Many people I work with in China have the idea that since the U.S. is the world's largest economy, therefore, ANY U.S. university is better than any university from another country.

This is not the case. The U.S. has both the best and some of the worst universities in the world. It's more important to evaluate the university itself than simply what country it is in.

As far as law schools go, attend one of the T10 in or near Chicago or an east/west coast economic hub, and you're golden as far as international prestige goes. Attend anywhere else, and you're probably stuck wherever you are.

Despite what people say, you're not getting very far internationally with a UVA, a Northwestern (except for Kellog), or a Duke degree.

But go to HYSCCN, if you can. Those are the best law schools in the world; after that, you're better off staying in your home country (wherever that is).

[Seally]

I think the prestige of U.S. law schools is easy to overstate. Many people I work with in China have the idea that since the U.S. is the world's largest economy, therefore, ANY U.S. university is better than any university from another country.

This is not the case. The U.S. has both the best and some of the worst universities in the world. It's more important to evaluate the university itself than simply what country it is in.

As far as law schools go, attend one of the T10 in or near Chicago or an east/west coast economic hub, and you're golden as far as international prestige goes. Attend anywhere else, and you're probably stuck wherever you are.

Despite what people say, you're not getting very far internationally with a UVA, a Northwestern (except for Kellog), or a Duke degree.

But go to HYSCCN, if you can. Those are the best law schools in the world; after that, you're better off staying in your home country (wherever that is).

True, let's say i prefer going sticker at any T-14 instead of a free ride at Drexel Law School XD

[niederbomb]

So for McGill, if they contact one of your referees to verify the authenticity of an LOR, does that mean there's something wrong with it? Why would they contact one referee but not the other?

It did eventually get accepted, after the referee took 7 days to respond, but since I haven't seen it, I'm worried now that there's something wrong with it or they will try to dig into my personal life (they won't like everything they find).

Maybe I'm just paranoid.

[someone99]

I just posted this in another forum, but go to page 11 of the November 2010 issue of Ultra Vires for some information about placement on Bay Street.

http://www.ultravires.ca/

[niederbomb]

So when does McGill usually do these French interviews? January? March?

I just finished the last part of my application (my December LSAT)...I can breathe...so I have until when to master basic French?

Also, if I get interviewed but dinged for French, could I consider the callback itself a positive enough sign that I could reasonable expect to get accepted in a subsequent year with the same materials and background if I invested the time/money to study at one of the Quebec government's language courses?