Fordham 1L Taking Questions

[Bronx Bum]

Bronx Bum is a certified troll, take everything he says with a grain of salt. His advice around here is about as credited as MTal's.

LOL you haven't stepped foot in Fordham yet, but what I say is incorrect. Ok, right.

I thought you were taking a year off for the sole purpose of avoiding this "shit hole"?

So a post I made jokingly over a year ago makes what you say, a 0L,more credible than me?

[NYC Law]

Bronx Bum is a certified troll, take everything he says with a grain of salt. His advice around here is about as credited as MTal's.

LOL you haven't stepped foot in Fordham yet, but what I say is incorrect. Ok, right.

I thought you were taking a year off for the sole purpose of avoiding this "shit hole"?

So a post I made jokingly over a year ago makes what you say, a 0L,more credible than me?

You're entire posting history is dedicated to disparaging Fordham. That's the part that makes you an obnoxious troll.

[Bronx Bum]

Again, you're a 0L. You really know nothing, and it is actually unfortunate that people like you, who have never stepped foot in a Fordham classroom, are allowed to give advice. I have enjoyed Fordham so far. The full time job I have now is largely due to having Fordham Law on my resume. Nothing I said about Biglaw, however, is incorrect. Especially when law jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate.

I know your "deal" on this board is running into threads with a chip on your shoulder acting all blunt with people on a message board. I encourage you to do that in real life when you come to Fordham. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends. But I am telling you, a 0L,, as an actual student who GOES to Fordham, things that factor into getting a biglaw job. Maybe you're trying to justify going to an expensive school with only a 20% scholarship/80% loans. None of my business. But if you come into a thread about Fordham students giving advice, expect it.

[OnceUponAMemo]

Also, I would say that 25% of biglaw is deceiving. If 25% of the class gets biglaw, I would say only 10% get it based on law school merits i.e. top grades, LR.

The rest are people who have an extensive background in something of value to the firm (like finance or IP) to go along with mediocre grades or people with serious connections. I say this only because a lot of people come in thinking that 25% biglaw means they can come in with mediocre grades in the 15-25% range without a great background and still land biglaw. People straight from UG with a soft academic background would probably need to fight for dear life to fall within that 10% grade range (possibly lower) to get biglaw based on academics alone. After that, it's who you know and your background.

do you go to fordham?

bolded sounds like trolling.

He does go to Fordham, and often is trolling, but he has a point there about experience mattering far more than you might expect. Plus.... He's our troll. Also, the numbers are getting better. I just got off the phone with a person who knows the numbers far better than I do and they explained to me that about 30-35% of last year's class probably had a summer position lined up with a good sized NY firm by the end of last year. So, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. BronxBum says about 10% of the class got jobs based solely on academics, I buy that, but the vast majority of students have more on their resume than solely academics and these other reference points, in conjunction with solid grades help a larger % of people get jobs. I've been talking about this a lot with 3Ls as we have OCI next week, and they said about 20-25% of their class probably got a job through EIW specifically and the year before (which was penultimate ITE) it was more like 15% at the end of the year had SA gigs. This also generally supports BronxBum's assertion, if you don't have top grades/LR, you need to have something else going for you. Then it might be more like a sliding scale, with good grades and a bunch of soft factors (could be journals, work experience, connections, diversity, niche specialties, etc.) you can still be competitive. If you have a ton of soft factors, but weak grades, it will be tougher, but still doable to have a successful job search.

[MrAnon]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

[JenDarby]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

I feel even better about my few years of relevant work experience now. Thank you for that.

[Stringer6]

Also, I would say that 25% of biglaw is deceiving. If 25% of the class gets biglaw, I would say only 10% get it based on law school merits i.e. top grades, LR.

The rest are people who have an extensive background in something of value to the firm (like finance or IP) to go along with mediocre grades or people with serious connections. I say this only because a lot of people come in thinking that 25% biglaw means they can come in with mediocre grades in the 15-25% range without a great background and still land biglaw. People straight from UG with a soft academic background would probably need to fight for dear life to fall within that 10% grade range (possibly lower) to get biglaw based on academics alone. After that, it's who you know and your background.

do you go to fordham?

bolded sounds like trolling.

He does go to Fordham, and often is trolling, but he has a point there about experience mattering far more than you might expect. Plus.... He's our troll.

ok. i wasn't really denying that he had a point (how would i know?) -- just saying what i'd heard from other fordham students. would you care to weigh in on how he breaks down the percentages?

nevermind. you already did.

[MrAnon]

Yes, I do. You only have 10, 25 and 33% cutoffs so you have to estimate. I'm only approx. 15-20% myself. I'm in the evening and work full time so I do OCI next year, but if I had to chance myself in OCI without work experience, I'd be fucked. Even with my (minimal) work experience, I don't like my chances at all for OCI based on talking to upperclassmen, the Fordham community, and dealing with attorneys with my job.

hm. well good luck. fwiw, every student i talked to when i went to the school said otherwise.

What exactly is "otherwise". I hear unemployed classmates all the time soothing themselves by saying how far the Fordham name should carry them in their job search, meantime they are unemployed. To their credit they remain optimistic, but optimistic is not employed.

[Bronx Bum]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

TCR. Then you're thrown into the deep NYC pool with all of the other BLS, 'Dozo, NYLS grads. You'd be shocked how many smalllaw attorney's really have no idea that Fordham >>>>St. John's. The sad thing is that IRL (meaning if you don't get biglaw) a NYLS with connections will get the job over a Fordham grad.

[OnceUponAMemo]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

While we're on the topic, night students without much work experience seem to have a disproportionately more difficult time in OCI than other students, although this is more endemic to firm hiring as a whole as opposed to being FLS specific.

[MrAnon]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

While we're on the topic, night students without much work experience seem to have a disproportionately more difficult time in OCI than other students, although this is more endemic to firm hiring as a whole as opposed to being FLS specific.

Yes, firms absolutely know the "deal" with night students who aren't working. they don't want also-rans who backdoored their way into the law school.

[Stringer6]

Yes, I do. You only have 10, 25 and 33% cutoffs so you have to estimate. I'm only approx. 15-20% myself. I'm in the evening and work full time so I do OCI next year, but if I had to chance myself in OCI without work experience, I'd be fucked. Even with my (minimal) work experience, I don't like my chances at all for OCI based on talking to upperclassmen, the Fordham community, and dealing with attorneys with my job.

hm. well good luck. fwiw, every student i talked to when i went to the school said otherwise.

What exactly is "otherwise". I hear unemployed classmates all the time soothing themselves by saying how far the Fordham name should carry them in their job search, meantime they are unemployed. To their credit they remain optimistic, but optimistic is not employed.

they painted a happier picture than Bronx Bum. whatever. silly to argue over.

[Stringer6]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

TCR. Then you're thrown into the deep NYC pool with all of the other BLS, 'Dozo, NYLS grads. You'd be shocked how many smalllaw attorney's really have no idea that Fordham >>>>St. John's. The sad thing is that IRL (meaning if you don't get biglaw) a NYLS with connections will get the job over a Fordham grad.

or maybe

[Bronx Bum]

Also keep in mind that the night student with a day job and history at a biglaw firm and less than top 20% grades will get one of those biglaw jobs and it will be denied to the straight out of undergrad type with only the grades.

Getting biglaw really is tough at Fordham these days. I would say getting any job at all before graduation is a lucky thing. I don't know what happens to people after graduation frankly.

While we're on the topic, night students without much work experience seem to have a disproportionately more difficult time in OCI than other students, although this is more endemic to firm hiring as a whole as opposed to being FLS specific.

Yes, firms absolutely know the "deal" with night students who aren't working. they don't want also-rans who backdoored their way into the law school.

TCR. If you are in the evening program, you should be working. And not solely an internship either. You want a reason why you TTT'd your way into Fordham, and that should be to make money to support a family/need to pay tuition.

[OnceUponAMemo]

would you care to weigh in on how he breaks down the percentages?

nevermind. you already did.

Okay, I'll bite.

Without throwing this thread too far off the rails, which may be futile, it is clear that BronxBum's posts are very pessimistic, full disclaimer - mine are likely very optimistic. [I've had terrific and unique opportunities at Fordham that I can safely say not a single other law school would have provided. Self-aggrandizing as that may sound, it is 100% true.] That said, coming in to law school, I was shocked, literally shocked, how often when talking to employers and practitioners that I got the, "Oh you got to Fordham Law? That's really a great school, you should talk to partner/director XYZ at our firm/non-profit. They went to Fordham and talk about it all the time." I was then definitely under the impression that these people would see me and be more, "Oh pshht, you go to Fordham, haha sucker lol wut, Columbia Rulez." Really this is not the case. I'm almost embarrassed to say where I go to school at my internship because invariably everyone's eyebrows raise and they say, "Oh Fordham, great school, good for you." Or maybe they just had really low expectations for me when the met me, who knows? This is highly awkward for a lot of the other law school students who are at schools in the Brooklyn/RU-N/CUNY/Dozo/NYLS range. Now obviously Fordham is a cut above these schools in rankings and employment, but the alumni base is exceedingly strong in NY and the reputation is right up there. Side anecdote- I've talked to a few employers about hiring and they have mentioned schools they recruit at and we talk about why I chose Fordham and when/if we talk about turning down a T14 that happens to be in upstate NY for FLS, there is never any second-guessing. It's always, yeah you would have to pay me to go up there, for NYC Fordham is better. I'm not sure I'd even go that far, but the point is Fordham is a great school for the New York Area. If you really put in the time, and not just in classwork, but networking and getting on the job search early, I'm confident that paying sticker at Fordham can be a good decision. If you are making an investment in yourself, why would you want to shortchange yourself?

Okay, with the topic sufficiently derailed I'll end the mini-rant and am happy to continue the discussion from any angle via PM.

[Stringer6]

would you care to weigh in on how he breaks down the percentages?

nevermind. you already did.

Okay, I'll bite.

Without throwing this thread too far off the rails, which may be futile, it is clear that BronxBum's posts are very pessimistic, full disclaimer - mine are likely very optimistic. [I've had terrific and unique opportunities at Fordham that I can safely say not a single other law school would have provided. Self-aggrandizing as that may sound, it is 100% true.] That said, coming in to law school, I was shocked, literally shocked, how often when talking to employers and practitioners that I got the, "Oh you got to Fordham Law? That's really a great school, you should talk to partner/director XYZ at our firm/non-profit. They went to Fordham and talk about it all the time." I was then definitely under the impression that these people would see me and be more, "Oh pshht, you go to Fordham, haha sucker lol wut, Columbia Rulez." Really this is not the case. I'm almost embarrassed to say where I go to school at my internship because invariably everyone's eyebrows raise and they say, "Oh Fordham, great school, good for you." Or maybe they just had really low expectations for me when the met me, who knows? This is highly awkward for a lot of the other law school students who are at schools in the Brooklyn/RU-N/CUNY/Dozo/NYLS range. Now obviously Fordham is a cut above these schools in rankings and employment, but the alumni base is exceedingly strong in NY and the reputation is right up there. Side anecdote- I've talked to a few employers about hiring and they have mentioned schools they recruit at and we talk about why I chose Fordham and when/if we talk about turning down a T14 that happens to be in upstate NY for FLS, there is never any second-guessing. It's always, yeah you would have to pay me to go up there, for NYC Fordham is better. I'm not sure I'd even go that far, but the point is Fordham is a great school for the New York Area. If you really put in the time, and not just in classwork, but networking and getting on the job search early, I'm confident that paying sticker at Fordham can be a good decision. If you are making an investment in yourself, why would you want to shortchange yourself?

Okay, with the topic sufficiently derailed I'll end the mini-rant and am happy to continue the discussion from any angle via PM.

thanks for the input. very nice of you to take the time to talk to 0Ls about this stuff.

[NYC Law]

would you care to weigh in on how he breaks down the percentages?

nevermind. you already did.

Okay, I'll bite.

Without throwing this thread too far off the rails, which may be futile, it is clear that BronxBum's posts are very pessimistic, full disclaimer - mine are likely very optimistic. [I've had terrific and unique opportunities at Fordham that I can safely say not a single other law school would have provided. Self-aggrandizing as that may sound, it is 100% true.] That said, coming in to law school, I was shocked, literally shocked, how often when talking to employers and practitioners that I got the, "Oh you got to Fordham Law? That's really a great school, you should talk to partner/director XYZ at our firm/non-profit. They went to Fordham and talk about it all the time." I was then definitely under the impression that these people would see me and be more, "Oh pshht, you go to Fordham, haha sucker lol wut, Columbia Rulez." Really this is not the case. I'm almost embarrassed to say where I go to school at my internship because invariably everyone's eyebrows raise and they say, "Oh Fordham, great school, good for you." Or maybe they just had really low expectations for me when the met me, who knows? This is highly awkward for a lot of the other law school students who are at schools in the Brooklyn/RU-N/CUNY/Dozo/NYLS range. Now obviously Fordham is a cut above these schools in rankings and employment, but the alumni base is exceedingly strong in NY and the reputation is right up there. Side anecdote- I've talked to a few employers about hiring and they have mentioned schools they recruit at and we talk about why I chose Fordham and when/if we talk about turning down a T14 that happens to be in upstate NY for FLS, there is never any second-guessing. It's always, yeah you would have to pay me to go up there, for NYC Fordham is better. I'm not sure I'd even go that far, but the point is Fordham is a great school for the New York Area. If you really put in the time, and not just in classwork, but networking and getting on the job search early, I'm confident that paying sticker at Fordham can be a good decision. If you are making an investment in yourself, why would you want to shortchange yourself?

Okay, with the topic sufficiently derailed I'll end the mini-rant and am happy to continue the discussion from any angle via PM.

thanks for the input. very nice of you to take the time to talk to 0Ls about this stuff.

+1, thanks for your help on the boards.

Even if you are too optimistic, it's a morale thing. If we've already committed to the decision to attend, do we constantly have to hear on these boards what idiots we are for making the decision? I've done my due diligence, analyzed all the stats from various years, looked up all the Fordham alumni, etc. I have an idea what I'm getting into. Blissful ignorance is one thing, but just trying to go to a decent law school without constant beratement is another.

[Strange]

Thanks so much for all the info guys (including the negative stuff). It does seem like the attitude towards Fordham in the "Chances" forum is mostly negative because of how expensive it is, so deeper insight is appreciated.

I guess this is more of a general question, but what kind of softs should someone like me be looking to get before I start law school in September 2012? I will have two years of paralegal and political campaign work experience before I attend, and I'm a non-URM hispanic. What other stuff should I be doing to beef up my chances 3-4 years down the line when I'm looking for a gig?

Thanks again!

[OnceUponAMemo]

+1, thanks for your help on the boards.

Even if you are too optimistic, it's a morale thing. If we've already committed to the decision to attend, do we constantly have to hear on these boards what idiots we are for making the decision? I've done my due diligence, analyzed all the stats from various years, looked up all the Fordham alumni, etc. I have an idea what I'm getting into. Blissful ignorance is one thing, but just trying to go to a decent law school without constant beratement is another.

Right. In my opinion, I've put myself in a position to be successful and if I get demolished at OCI, as much as it would suck, I'm not going to hold it over the school's head. It's not their fault that some people don't have any other soft factors going for them. I have a sizeable number of interviews but not 30+ or anything stupid like that. I've worked closely, despite my gut instinct, with CPC for 1L job search and now for OCI and so long as you have some common sense, you realize they won't get you a job just because it's law school. It's not Harvard where that might be the case. Just ask UVA people, like this guy, who clearly expected the school to do the work for them: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/04/most-cre ... -services/

Honestly, in relation to 1L year, the only people I know who didnt get great jobs slept on the whole process. Obviously 2L OCI is a whole different league, but if you do work your behind off [read network throughout 1L year + classwork], you will be fine. My biggest regret from this past year is not doing more networking stuff. There are so many CLE's offered by the different bar associations that you can go to for free or for cheap, that pay off in spades when it comes time to talk to people about firm work. These also let the relationship progress more naturally so you are not talking to them for the first time hoping for a good reference to the hiring partner.

PS: Any 0-1L's worried about jobs or who want to direct nervous energy efficiently, buy Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams. Worth more than it's weight in gold and its a pretty heavy book.

[MrAnon]

I wouldn't get too worried about 1L jobs and internships. These are unpaid and while there may be some competition for them, the bottom line is they are unpaid. The real question is how many employers are willing to pay students to work for them, and willing to pay the premium (160k) or the same they pay Brooklyn Law students.

[Lolek]

I wouldn't get too worried about 1L jobs and internships. These are unpaid and while there may be some competition for them, the bottom line is they are unpaid. The real question is how many employers are willing to pay students to work for them, and willing to pay the premium (160k) or the same they pay Brooklyn Law students.

Some of you sound like you're extremely negative and just hoping that all the cards play themselves right in order for you to receive even one callback.

I think that's a little self-defeating, sure it's good to be realistic about expectations...but you also can't sound scared about everything around you. You're not going to NYLS, and even the top few there (yes, strong statistic..) are going to go places.

I'm sure all this worry subconsciously goes towards affecting how you wind up performing. Or maybe I'm just over-confident...but I'd rather be that and focus all my energy on doing great than to calculate every step because you're not guaranteed anything by going to "fordham". You're not guaranteed anything anywhere, for all you know you could be the last guy in the class at Harvard, then what?

You're already enrolled there, make the best of it and make sure you don't fail in your coursework. Relax a little.

[mbweissman]

I wanted to ask the evening students on here for a reality check if you guys don't mind...

I'm currently working full-time out on Long Island, about an hour and a half train ride from NYC. Given the commute and job, how feasible do you think my success in the program will be?

I've spent the last 3 years working full time in higher education administration while completing an MBA. I was certainly able to handle the work load, but since I was taking classes locally and the program wasn't as difficult, I worry about my ability to handle the Fordham program.

Any thoughts?

[nygrrrl]

I wanted to ask the evening students on here for a reality check if you guys don't mind...

I'm currently working full-time out on Long Island, about an hour and a half train ride from NYC. Given the commute and job, how feasible do you think my success in the program will be?

I've spent the last 3 years working full time in higher education administration while completing an MBA. I was certainly able to handle the work load, but since I was taking classes locally and the program wasn't as difficult, I worry about my ability to handle the Fordham program.

Any thoughts?

An hour and a half, each way? Classes begin at 6 or 630 for 1LEs so that means you'd be leaving work at 4, latest... and getting home at 930, earliest (as I recall, there was also one night a week that we didn't get out til 9...). It's a tough program. I think the commute will kill you, unless you can cut your work schedule back to PT.

[mbweissman]

I wanted to ask the evening students on here for a reality check if you guys don't mind...

I'm currently working full-time out on Long Island, about an hour and a half train ride from NYC. Given the commute and job, how feasible do you think my success in the program will be?

I've spent the last 3 years working full time in higher education administration while completing an MBA. I was certainly able to handle the work load, but since I was taking classes locally and the program wasn't as difficult, I worry about my ability to handle the Fordham program.

Any thoughts?

An hour and a half, each way? Classes begin at 6 or 630 for 1LEs so that means you'd be leaving work at 4, latest... and getting home at 930, earliest (as I recall, there was also one night a week that we didn't get out til 9...). It's a tough program. I think the commute will kill you, unless you can cut your work schedule back to PT.

My work schedule is flexible - I'll be able to leave to make class, and I was hoping to do some reading on the train...
I'm concerned I might be living in a dream world in terms of the feasibility of the workload though. Realistically, how much time do you devote to reading / schoolwork on a given day?

[nygrrrl]

My work schedule is flexible - I'll be able to leave to make class, and I was hoping to do some reading on the train...
I'm concerned I might be living in a dream world in terms of the feasibility of the workload though. Realistically, how much time do you devote to reading / schoolwork on a given day?

I actually love reading on the train (often go out to see relatives, love that time). I'd say that on weekdays I put in 2.5-3 hours, minimum. Weekends? Every moment I can get. I dunno. Only you can decide how much you can handle. (Waiting to hear what others have to say!)