Columbia 1Ls taking questions Forum

[angua]

Question: I have two small cats that absolutely must go with me to law school. What options do I have for housing?

[Lem37]

Question: I have two small cats that absolutely must go with me to law school. What options do I have for housing?

Specify this on your application. Be really firm about it. Columbia maintains a lot of individual housing units throughout the area, and at least a few should be pets-friendly.

[angua]

Question: I have two small cats that absolutely must go with me to law school. What options do I have for housing?

Specify this on your application. Be really firm about it. Columbia maintains a lot of individual housing units throughout the area, and at least a few should be pets-friendly.

So on the housing application then?

[Lem37]

Question: I have two small cats that absolutely must go with me to law school. What options do I have for housing?

Specify this on your application. Be really firm about it. Columbia maintains a lot of individual housing units throughout the area, and at least a few should be pets-friendly.

So on the housing application then?

Yes.

[lakerfanimal]

I tried to find the courses we could take outside the law school online, but couldn't figure out whether we can take business school classes or not. Do any of you know whether we can? (I'm not trying to get an MBA, but I'm a fan of some business school faculty and it'd be awesome to take classes with them).

Thanks!

[Lem37]

I tried to find the courses we could take outside the law school online, but couldn't figure out whether we can take business school classes or not. Do any of you know whether we can? (I'm not trying to get an MBA, but I'm a fan of some business school faculty and it'd be awesome to take classes with them).

Thanks!

Unfortunately, I don't know much about taking courses outside of the law school. That being said, this is mainly because, between a full course-load (including legal writing and moot court your first year), 4-5 hours of studying per day, law school extracurriculars, research assistant positions, summer job hunting, and journal obligations, no one I know at the law school actually has the time or the will to take another course.

I'm not trying to discourage you from taking this - just want to give you a realistic picture of the hours you're going to put in at law school. This ain't undergrad. However, if you are a particularly motivated person (or one of those rare people who can slack off during the school year and ace the exam) who would like to trade your free time for another class, by all means go for it.

[imchuckbass58]

I tried to find the courses we could take outside the law school online, but couldn't figure out whether we can take business school classes or not. Do any of you know whether we can? (I'm not trying to get an MBA, but I'm a fan of some business school faculty and it'd be awesome to take classes with them).

Thanks!

You can take up to 10 credits (roughly 2-3 classes) at other divisions of the university and count them towards your degree (assuming they're grad-level, and assuming they have some plausible connection to law - you can't take Swahili, for example). The business school is one of the most popular schools to cross-register at (the other is SIPA).

However, you will get last choice for business school and SIPA classes. That is, all the business or SIPA students get to pick their classes, and if after that there is still room left, they open it up to law school students. This means most of the popular classes are full by the time they open up to law school students.

There are also some classes that are cross-listed (e.g., harvey miller's class) and thus reserve a given number of seats for business and law students. You can also try to finagle your way into a full class by talking to the professor and explaining why you really want to take it (I have several friends who have done this).

[lakerfanimal]

Thanks a bunch Lem and Chuckbass! Yeah I wanted to take a class from Joel Greenblatt so I doubt I'll be able to get in haha, but I might try the talking to the prof beforehand tip you suggested.

Also thanks to all of you for the housing info, it's infinitely helpful. Are any of you in the Child Advocacy clinic or know someone who did it? How hard is it to get into as a 2L (this clinic and Professor Spinak are one of the reasons I want to go to Columbia).

[cyxdev17]

I haven't read through this thread so not sure if this was covered, but...

What do you know about merit aid and negotiating with CLS? My numbers aren't too competitive for CLS (25% LSAT, non-URM) but I'm hoping I'll get some money since I'm pretty set on attending. Do you know which schools' aid offers CLS will "pay attention to" when you negotiate?

Thanks!

[JG Hall]

I haven't read through this thread so not sure if this was covered, but...

What do you know about merit aid and negotiating with CLS? My numbers aren't too competitive for CLS (25% LSAT, non-URM) but I'm hoping I'll get some money since I'm pretty set on attending. Do you know which schools' aid offers CLS will "pay attention to" when you negotiate?

Thanks!

There is no merit aid outside of Butler/Hamilton. Everything else is need-based.

[cyxdev17]

Wait, seriously? Is need based aid like a scholarship too, or are they loans?

[Hey-O]

Tag.

[deneuve39]

I haven't read through this thread so not sure if this was covered, but...

What do you know about merit aid and negotiating with CLS? My numbers aren't too competitive for CLS (25% LSAT, non-URM) but I'm hoping I'll get some money since I'm pretty set on attending. Do you know which schools' aid offers CLS will "pay attention to" when you negotiate?

Thanks!

There is no merit aid outside of Butler/Hamilton. Everything else is need-based.

This is *technically* true, but many people I know successfully negotiated with Columbia by using their offers from peer schools. This generally means HYS, and NYU, Chicago, and Penn.

[viking138]

Wait, seriously? Is need based aid like a scholarship too, or are they loans?

Yup it's like a scholarship. I received 50k over 3 years. If you want to know my income status, PM me

Edit: someone PM'd me but had receipt disabled. Anyway, to simplify, I was straight out of undergrad and my parents' combined income was just about the median national income.

[Lem37]

I haven't read through this thread so not sure if this was covered, but...

What do you know about merit aid and negotiating with CLS? My numbers aren't too competitive for CLS (25% LSAT, non-URM) but I'm hoping I'll get some money since I'm pretty set on attending. Do you know which schools' aid offers CLS will "pay attention to" when you negotiate?

Thanks!

There is no merit aid outside of Butler/Hamilton. Everything else is need-based.

Technically, yes. This is what CLS will tell you. However, I definitely did not qualify for need-based, but used my scholarships at other peer schools to leverage money out of them. So really, it's need based "plus."

[Hey-O]

Do you know if there are any opportunities to work in the admissions office? I know some schools (Berkeley) have current students involved in the process. Does Columbia have anything like that? Maybe it's just because I am embroiled in admissions right now but I think that knowing more what happens on the adcomm side of things would be interesting and useful.

[greendc115]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer these questions!!

1). My first question stems from this article:

--LinkRemoved-- ... chool.html

I'm just a little confused since the article seems to emphasize the usefulness of hornbooks and the Examples and Explanations series when studying for the exams (i.e. not really paying attention to casebooks), whereas it seems like some posts here emphasize going off class notes and what the professor has specifically lectured upon. What would you say is the more useful route to take when preparing for exams?

(And just to reiterate what has been brought up in previous posts, I wouldn't consider myself a gunner by any means, just a scaredy-cat 0L who is trying to avoid being completely shell-shocked their first semester )

2.) How much does the curriculum you choose (in 2L and 3L) influence your prospects re jobs and summer positions? For example, if I mostly study international or human rights law while in law school, does this mean I would get passed up by employers from big law firms (who are maybe looking for someone who has taken more classes in corporate or securities law)? Or are prospective employers just focused more on grades than anything else?

Thanks!

[JG Hall]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer these questions!!

1). My first question stems from this article:

--LinkRemoved-- ... chool.html

I'm just a little confused since the article seems to emphasize the usefulness of hornbooks and the Examples and Explanations series when studying for the exams (i.e. not really paying attention to casebooks), whereas it seems like some posts here emphasize going off class notes and what the professor has specifically lectured upon. What would you say is the more useful route to take when preparing for exams?

(And just to reiterate what has been brought up in previous posts, I wouldn't consider myself a gunner by any means, just a scaredy-cat 0L who is trying to avoid being completely shell-shocked their first semester )

2.) How much does the curriculum you choose (in 2L and 3L) influence your prospects re jobs and summer positions? For example, if I mostly study international or human rights law while in law school, does this mean I would get passed up by employers from big law firms (who are maybe looking for someone who has taken more classes in corporate or securities law)? Or are prospective employers just focused more on grades than anything else?

Thanks!

1) I cannot emphasize this enough: everyone studies differently. Some people skip casebooks and just read supplements; some people take extensive notes in class; some people never go to class; some people just read the casebook cover-to-cover and go. While I'm sure people have been very successful doing either of the two methods you mentioned, don't do something just because it worked for someone else. Four years of undergrad should've given you some indication as to how you best study. Try different things and stick with what works for you. There really isn't a right answer.

2) At EIP, employers don't know what classes you're taking fall 2L. Sometimes they ask, but most people don't even have their schedules finalized by then. So class schedule is almost entirely irrelevant in landing biglaw. But you probably should take Corporations before your SA.

[viking138]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer these questions!!

1). My first question stems from this article:

--LinkRemoved-- ... chool.html

I'm just a little confused since the article seems to emphasize the usefulness of hornbooks and the Examples and Explanations series when studying for the exams (i.e. not really paying attention to casebooks), whereas it seems like some posts here emphasize going off class notes and what the professor has specifically lectured upon. What would you say is the more useful route to take when preparing for exams?

(And just to reiterate what has been brought up in previous posts, I wouldn't consider myself a gunner by any means, just a scaredy-cat 0L who is trying to avoid being completely shell-shocked their first semester )

2.) How much does the curriculum you choose (in 2L and 3L) influence your prospects re jobs and summer positions? For example, if I mostly study international or human rights law while in law school, does this mean I would get passed up by employers from big law firms (who are maybe looking for someone who has taken more classes in corporate or securities law)? Or are prospective employers just focused more on grades than anything else?

Thanks!

1) I cannot emphasize this enough: everyone studies differently. Some people skip casebooks and just read supplements; some people take extensive notes in class; some people never go to class; some people just read the casebook cover-to-cover and go. While I'm sure people have been very successful doing either of the two methods you mentioned, don't do something just because it worked for someone else. Four years of undergrad should've given you some indication as to how you best study. Try different things and stick with what works for you. There really isn't a right answer.

2) At EIP, employers don't know what classes you're taking fall 2L. Sometimes they ask, but most people don't even have their schedules finalized by then. So class schedule is almost entirely irrelevant in landing biglaw. But you probably should take Corporations before your SA.

There are two big things I recommend. First, find a way to review the material after class so that you have like three go's of it: reading for class, class lecture time, and post-class. For me, that was hand-writing in class and typing up those notes at the end of the day. I circled things I didn't understand and made sure to ask the prof, the TA, or a friend about it later. Second, take tons of practice tests. You've probably gleaned that (I think it's the one common thread), but the importance of practice tests cannot be understated. Look at one for each class 1/3 of the way through the term so you have an idea of what the exam will look like and can attune how you take notes and study to that.

[Lem37]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer these questions!!

1). My first question stems from this article:

--LinkRemoved-- ... chool.html

I'm just a little confused since the article seems to emphasize the usefulness of hornbooks and the Examples and Explanations series when studying for the exams (i.e. not really paying attention to casebooks), whereas it seems like some posts here emphasize going off class notes and what the professor has specifically lectured upon. What would you say is the more useful route to take when preparing for exams?

(And just to reiterate what has been brought up in previous posts, I wouldn't consider myself a gunner by any means, just a scaredy-cat 0L who is trying to avoid being completely shell-shocked their first semester )

2.) How much does the curriculum you choose (in 2L and 3L) influence your prospects re jobs and summer positions? For example, if I mostly study international or human rights law while in law school, does this mean I would get passed up by employers from big law firms (who are maybe looking for someone who has taken more classes in corporate or securities law)? Or are prospective employers just focused more on grades than anything else?

Thanks!

1. I've only used hornbooks when I don't understand a concept. You're not taking "Evidence," you're taking "Professor So-and-so's Evidence," and understanding what the professor emphasizes and disagrees with is key to doing well on the exam. Most importantly, take their practice tests beforehand, and outline throughout the semester. Hornbooks are mostly overrated.

2. I agree with the above poster. Your curriculum in 2L and 3L doesn't matter since most of us interview for post-graduation jobs in the summer between 1L and 2L (as in, you apply for jobs for the following summer, and if you do well there then they'll hopefully extend a post-grad offer to you). There are some classes that are "secondary core," such as Corporations, Evidence, and Antitrust, but you can take them in either 2L or 3L year.

[Sogui]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer these questions!!

1). My first question stems from this article:

--LinkRemoved-- ... chool.html

I'm just a little confused since the article seems to emphasize the usefulness of hornbooks and the Examples and Explanations series when studying for the exams (i.e. not really paying attention to casebooks), whereas it seems like some posts here emphasize going off class notes and what the professor has specifically lectured upon. What would you say is the more useful route to take when preparing for exams?

(And just to reiterate what has been brought up in previous posts, I wouldn't consider myself a gunner by any means, just a scaredy-cat 0L who is trying to avoid being completely shell-shocked their first semester )

2.) How much does the curriculum you choose (in 2L and 3L) influence your prospects re jobs and summer positions? For example, if I mostly study international or human rights law while in law school, does this mean I would get passed up by employers from big law firms (who are maybe looking for someone who has taken more classes in corporate or securities law)? Or are prospective employers just focused more on grades than anything else?

Thanks!

This is my favorite topic to offend people over (I kid, I kid)

1) I feel you on this, going to class like I did (no pre-class notes, no hornbooks/supplements, no highlighting, no briefing) can leave you feeling inadequate when you look down the row and see nothing but thick margin notes, highlighted pages out the wazoo, and pages of case briefs over the day's material. It can do a number on you and I suspect a substantial amount of time, money, and effort is put into 'keeping up with the Jones-es" every fall. It also seems to fit into a "scattershot" mentality, where people think if they try EVERY approach used by classmates then they certainly won't be lacking anything comes finals.

My approach, which I'm still refining, relies on only a "gut knowledge" of casebook materials. Aside from the occasional take home exam you will not have time to reflect on copious notes during a final, and given the way human memory works... it is highly unlikely that the student who puts in hours of effort into supplementing/highlighting/briefing a class reading will have any better recollection than you who just read the cases before class and had the "key takeaways" solidified during class. Of course some classes have "cornerstone" or "major" cases that provide essential guidance to some major legal issue that is probably/inevitably going to find its way onto the exam, if your professor flags the case as such and spends good class time on it, then it wouldn't hurt to re-read the case for our outline and make some of your own notes about the case once you begin to understand the "big picture" the professor is trying to lay out.

That way, when you leave class you and revisiting your notes while attempting to outline/prepare for finals, the only things you are writing down are what the professor thought was important about the case... not what YOU thought, or what some Hornbook author thought, but that the bloody grader thought about that case. Of course people have pushed back on this saying some professors just don't work like that... I have a hard time believing anyone teaching at CLS would neglect to bring up a topic about a case and then ding you for not remembering that issue during an exam, but I suppose it remains a possibility and you should be careful if you end up with a professor who is an awful lecturer. If you don't think your notes are capturing the "essence" of a case then you might want to see what past outlines/casebook notes/supplements have to say about it.

That's not to say those who rely more on hornbooks or other supplements are bound to do poorly, it's just that they are learning more than they need to for class, and there is a risk that "synthesizing" the supplements into your course could potentially lead you to debate "issues" on exams that your professors really doesn't find compelling/interesting/on-point as an answer. A majority of professors here do not read the assigned cases every semester they take a class, nor do they have the 100+ cases they will inevitably assign committed to memory. What they do have is a broad set of issues and tensions in the law that they see being played out time and time again in the litany of cases they assign. This is particularly acute in one of my current classes where my professor (typically) can only recall a handful of key details from any particular case that we discuss, neglecting almost any other details, yet he is extremely well aware of the underlying issues and tensions playing out in any given case. ***IMO*** this is how you should try and see cases, and a large amount of the studying you see your peers doing is not an effective way of trying to reach this goal.

As for the actual exam-prep, start outlining early. Ideally you want to give yourself at least 1 day for each practice exam you want to take, so make sure your outlining is done early enough that you have time for that. Take the practice exams under REAL test conditions, timed in a quiet area with your outline and any other material you can bring. It wouldn't hurt to try and match the time of day and eating plans around it either. 4+ hours for the exam itself, then another 2 at least for reviewing the answers using the provided model answers or comparing your answers with classmates (their answers might not be right, but it's mostly useful for arguments they might raise from notes you overlooked in class or cases you overlooked in your answers). You might also ask around about making 'attack outlines', they seem to be pretty popular among successful students and I will be using them myself this Spring.

2) See above posters.

[lakerfanimal]

I'm sure others found this, but I think it's helpful because it has all of the university housing on one page (i think?) with fairly detailed descriptions and with fees listed too.

Do any of you think it's worth it to live in Lionsgate rather than 115th? Do we really need 24 hour security or is it just a luxury? Also, are all of the people you know happy with living in a share situation? Thanks a bunch!!

Edit- forgot to post the link http://facilities.columbia.edu/housing/ ... ty-housing

[Lem37]

I'm sure others found this, but I think it's helpful because it has all of the university housing on one page (i think?) with fairly detailed descriptions and with fees listed too.

Do any of you think it's worth it to live in Lionsgate rather than 115th? Do we really need 24 hour security or is it just a luxury? Also, are all of the people you know happy with living in a share situation? Thanks a bunch!!

FYI, Lionsgate is largely reserved for upperclassman and professors; very few 1Ls are given apartments there, if any. Furthermore, unless you're willing to shell out a few grand per month for Lenfest, you'll most likely be placed in a share. Don't fret! You can choose to live with other law students (or, alternatively, grad students), and we don't bite.

Honestly, I don't think you need that kind of security up here. Most CLS students (including myself) live in UAH apartments without a doorman, and I haven't heard of any problems from friends.

[lakerfanimal]

I'm sure others found this, but I think it's helpful because it has all of the university housing on one page (i think?) with fairly detailed descriptions and with fees listed too.

Do any of you think it's worth it to live in Lionsgate rather than 115th? Do we really need 24 hour security or is it just a luxury? Also, are all of the people you know happy with living in a share situation? Thanks a bunch!!

FYI, Lionsgate is largely reserved for upperclassman and professors; very few 1Ls are given apartments there, if any. Furthermore, unless you're willing to shell out a few grand per month for Lenfest, you'll most likely be placed in a share. Don't fret! You can choose to live with other law students (or, alternatively, grad students), and we don't bite.

Honestly, I don't think you need that kind of security up here. Most CLS students (including myself) live in UAH apartments without a doorman, and I haven't heard of any problems from friends.

Ohh wow, I had no idea haha. Alright, thanks again Lem!! You're awesome

[JG Hall]

I'm sure others found this, but I think it's helpful because it has all of the university housing on one page (i think?) with fairly detailed descriptions and with fees listed too.

Do any of you think it's worth it to live in Lionsgate rather than 115th? Do we really need 24 hour security or is it just a luxury? Also, are all of the people you know happy with living in a share situation? Thanks a bunch!!

FYI, Lionsgate is largely reserved for upperclassman and professors; very few 1Ls are given apartments there, if any. Furthermore, unless you're willing to shell out a few grand per month for Lenfest, you'll most likely be placed in a share. Don't fret! You can choose to live with other law students (or, alternatively, grad students), and we don't bite.

Honestly, I don't think you need that kind of security up here. Most CLS students (including myself) live in UAH apartments without a doorman, and I haven't heard of any problems from friends.

Ohh wow, I had no idea haha. Alright, thanks again Lem!! You're awesome

The Lionsgate apartments are a lot nicer than the usual UAH apartment shares, though (not because of the security, just newer/cleaner). I had a few friends who lived their 1L. I'm not a huge fan of the furnished apartment shares because you get stuck with shitty dorm-style furniture (even though you can swap your bed out... but if you swap all your furniture out, why get a furnished apartment?). If you're going with UAH, go unfurnished because they're nicer/cheaper. So the low-end Lionsgate shares are probably better than the 115th furnished shares.