WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[romothesavior]

This is a slightly more comforting view than Cougar's. So, basically, if you happen to be really smart and you work hard, you have a good chance of not getting unlucky and ending up median. Sweet.

There are so many factors (intelligence, hard work, writing ability, typing speed, knowing how to structure your answer, knowing what the prof wants, and luck) to doing well on a law school exam. None are sufficient, and all are at least to some degree necessary.

[JCougar]

I agree with jcougar on just about everything he said (the profs here are great, STL can be fun if you make it fun, law school is a game and things can often happen that are just inexplicable, etc.). Law school exams can no doubt be silly at times and involve a lot of luck. But I just have to disagree with the notion that grades are "random" or meaningless. That view, IMO, is unfair to the people who rocked 1L and finished in the top 10% or whatever. Those people didn't get there because of some roll of the dice; they got there because they are very smart and worked hard, and they did something on the exam that others did not.

Are there some people who also are very smart and worked hard, and didn't do as well as they would have liked (or maybe even as well as they should have done)? Certainly. I know of quite a few people with mediocre grades who are incredibly sharp and worked really hard. I also know of a lot of people who had one inexplicable bad grade, or their grades sharply declined second semester for no apparent reason. There is a good deal of luck involved, and sometimes arbitrary things happen with grading. But I really have a hard time with people calling them "random," because almost every person I know at the top of the class deserves to be there. They often stood out during the year as being particularly insightful, or they took the lead during study groups, or they simply studied uber-hard. If you asked me to predict the top 10% midway through the year, I'll bet I could have spotted at least half of them (and I also probably could have told you, just based on observations in class and in conversations with people outside of class, a lot of the people who would wind up at median or below). There isn't a perfect correlation between smarts/work ethic/writing skills/etc. and grades, but it isn't random.

I also disagree strongly with focusing the most on LP. For one thing, the class is only 2 credits and the curve is very tight, so it won't really affect your GPA much. And I'm not even so sure I agree with jcougar that it teaches you how to be a lawyer. The memos and briefs I've written this summer are nothing like the ones I wrote in LP, and I've gotten good reviews of my writing by my supervisors. Almost any firm or agency you wind up with is going to teach you how to do it "their way," and every lawyer has a very different style. LP teaches you one rigid, uniform style, and that really frustrated me. It gave me a good baseline for legal writing and allowed me to practice skills like citation (which, as an aside, I've also found to be slightly overrated in terms of importance in the real world), but that's about it. I did love my LP Prof Jane Moul though, so those of you 0Ls who have her should be excited!

I don't mean to take away from what people in the top 10% did. Most of the people I know there have an incredible work ethic and are extremely smart. The thing is, you could say the same about 80% of the class. There's definitely about 15-20% that you can tell aren't going to do well because they're not putting a lot of effort into it, but aside from those people, it was impossible for me to tell who was going to do well and who wasn't. There's quite a few people in the top 10% that I am completely shocked by, given their answers in class. There's probably a larger number that I'm not surprised by, though.

It just hasn't been my experience that the better I understand the material (or the harder I work), the better I do. It's all been completely random, and my grades have turned on "figuring out" the mind of the professor. The classes where I try to write down an honest, level answer where I dispense with the bullshit and get to the point, I end up doing poorly in.

If it had anything to do with intelligence and preparation, I'd be getting similar grades in each class, because my intelligence doesn't change depending on what class it is, and I prepared adequately for each of my classes, yet my grades were all over the map. (Furthermore, the LSAT probably correlates pretty decently with intelligence, and about 75% of the class is within the margin of error of each other, so there's really not a whole lot of difference in intelligence within the class in the first place). There's another variable working in there. If it's not complete randomness due to what each teacher decides to give points for, then I don't know what it is.

[lovelaw27]

I was accepted as a transfer to WUSTL and have one quick question. How hard will it be to get a part time job during the school year? Should I just look at simplicity? Thanks guys.

[Hannibal]

I was accepted as a transfer to WUSTL and have one quick question. How hard will it be to get a part time job during the school year? Should I just look at simplicity? Thanks guys.

You know you can't work more than like 10 hours/week, yeah?

[lovelaw27]

I was accepted as a transfer to WUSTL and have one quick question. How hard will it be to get a part time job during the school year? Should I just look at simplicity? Thanks guys.

You know you can't work more than like 10 hours/week, yeah?

OK, so would it be hard to find something for 10 hours a week in St. Louis?

[fl0w]

I was accepted as a transfer to WUSTL and have one quick question. How hard will it be to get a part time job during the school year? Should I just look at simplicity? Thanks guys.

this is far to vague to give you advice.
Like for me I could easily find contract consulting work for 20hrs per week. but that's in-line w/ my experience. I could also find 10 hours of teaching dance classes per week. but again... that's in line with my experience.

Depends on what you've done, what you want to do, etc. Like any market.

[lovelaw27]

I was accepted as a transfer to WUSTL and have one quick question. How hard will it be to get a part time job during the school year? Should I just look at simplicity? Thanks guys.

this is far to vague to give you advice.
Like for me I could easily find contract consulting work for 20hrs per week. but that's in-line w/ my experience. I could also find 10 hours of teaching dance classes per week. but again... that's in line with my experience.

Depends on what you've done, what you want to do, etc. Like any market.

OK, I got it. I was just thinking more along the lines of doing research for a local law firm.

[camstant]

OK, I got it. I was just thinking more along the lines of doing research for a local law firm.

Hard to say with the firms in stl. Some people work for professors during the year--maybe consider that.

[lovelaw27]

Thanks.

[camstant]

my grades have turned on "figuring out" the mind of the professor

Isn't this active, not random?

[JCougar]

my grades have turned on "figuring out" the mind of the professor

Isn't this active, not random?

It's random in that any given professor could give the same exam a completely different grade. It's unreliable -- at least if you're trying to test understanding, knowledge, and application of the law.

Also, a lot of professors purposefully don't give you any hints or information that will help you "figure them out." They'll say they like one thing, but when grading time comes, they like something totally different. Some refuse to meet with you individually to discuss exam-taking strategies because they don't want to give away anything to one particular student.

Grading for the professors is not a science. A lot of them hate it. I'm sure they try to do their best, but when you read 100 of the same exam of students of virtually the same skill level, there's simply no way you can come up with a consistent and/or scientific method of grading these things and differentiating them on a mandatory curve. They've said as much to me: one told me it was ridiculous, one told me it was boring, and another told me that law school grades simply don't mean anything, but they have to curve stuff anyway because those are the rules. Also, studies trying to correlate law school grades with performance as a lawyer have basically uncovered that law school grades have little to no predictive value relating to your career success.

The one way to beat the odds is to type a fuckton of words...if you can. You'll usually get the benefit of the doubt if you have twice as many words as the next person. A lot of professors grade with a tally sheet and simply give you a tally mark if you write something they like. So if you type a ton of words, you have a better chance of getting more tallies. Also, they don't take off any points if you say something irrelevant or wrong, which further increases your odds when you type fast.

That's the one consistent thing I've realized when talking and studying with people in the top 25% of the class or higher. They all just type a shitload of words...some twice as many as I can type. They're all extremely smart, too, but so is everybody.

In essence, you're paying $150,000 for a 3-year typing speed test, the results of which some big law firms have found out allows them to market your services at a higher billable hour rate. You learn very little about legal skills along the way...at least during 1L. I can't wait to do my clinics and try to do moot court, etc. My goal for the next two years is to set as a priority using the university's vast array of resources to learn real-world skills, such as learning a new language, refining my public speaking skills, participating in a clinic, moot court, etc. It's an incredible university and campus. I wasted most of my 1L year reading casebooks that taught me nothing. I won't make that mistake again. If I'm going to dump $100,000 worth of tuition money into these years, I'm going to try and actually get something out of it.

[PSUFB1114]

Any general (or specific) advice on cover letter templates? What has/hasn't worked out for ya?

[thebigdog]

my grades have turned on "figuring out" the mind of the professor

Isn't this active, not random?

It's random in that any given professor could give the same exam a completely different grade. It's unreliable -- at least if you're trying to test understanding, knowledge, and application of the law.

Also, a lot of professors purposefully don't give you any hints or information that will help you "figure them out." They'll say they like one thing, but when grading time comes, they like something totally different. Some refuse to meet with you individually to discuss exam-taking strategies because they don't want to give away anything to one particular student.

Grading for the professors is not a science. A lot of them hate it. I'm sure they try to do their best, but when you read 100 of the same exam of students of virtually the same skill level, there's simply no way you can come up with a consistent and/or scientific method of grading these things and differentiating them on a mandatory curve. They've said as much to me: one told me it was ridiculous, one told me it was boring, and another told me that law school grades simply don't mean anything, but they have to curve stuff anyway because those are the rules. Also, studies trying to correlate law school grades with performance as a lawyer have basically uncovered that law school grades have little to no predictive value relating to your career success.

The one way to beat the odds is to type a fuckton of words...if you can. You'll usually get the benefit of the doubt if you have twice as many words as the next person. A lot of professors grade with a tally sheet and simply give you a tally mark if you write something they like. So if you type a ton of words, you have a better chance of getting more tallies. Also, they don't take off any points if you say something irrelevant or wrong, which further increases your odds when you type fast.

That's the one consistent thing I've realized when talking and studying with people in the top 25% of the class or higher. They all just type a shitload of words...some twice as many as I can type. They're all extremely smart, too, but so is everybody.

In essence, you're paying $150,000 for a 3-year typing speed test, the results of which some big law firms have found out allows them to market your services at a higher billable hour rate. You learn very little about legal skills along the way...at least during 1L. I can't wait to do my clinics and try to do moot court, etc. My goal for the next two years is to set as a priority using the university's vast array of resources to learn real-world skills, such as learning a new language, refining my public speaking skills, participating in a clinic, moot court, etc. It's an incredible university and campus. I wasted most of my 1L year reading casebooks that taught me nothing. I won't make that mistake again. If I'm going to dump $100,000 worth of tuition money into these years, I'm going to try and actually get something out of it.

I understand that for some people, they really don't care about grades. They're happy to have the status as a lawyer and would love to do any type of law. Some people are here for full rides, while the others have 10k scholarships and enough debt to have bought a house. You can't keep telling 1L's that grades don't matter, even if they don't to you. You're right that they have little correlation on how good of a lawyer you will be, but you're not going to be doing transactional work at below median. Hell, the truth is that 60-70% of our class won't have a job when we graduate. You can't even be a lawyer without a job. While grades are random for a majority of the class, some people have figured it out. There's a reason the same people cali classes each semester. I'm in this so called 25% zone you referred to, but I'm worried about finding a job myself. And my grades were all over the place as well. The economy is awful, and I don't want to be doing family divorce law and making 45k a year. I'd rather wait tables. Government jobs, full-time paying, are just as hard to get as big law. If you look at the Arizona Honors Handbook, you can see they they take 2 out of 500, or 15 out of thousands of applicants.

If you look at firms websites, they don't say John Smith, JD, top 12%. They list latin honors and law review. The firms don't market their recruits GPA, they market their reputations, based off their hiring structure of taking the people who have done the best on law school exams, and letting the market decide which are actually good enough to bring in money to the firm. I don't agree with it, but I'm not a partner making 500k a year enjoying how the system works.

[thebigdog]

On a related note, you guys are planning to share info about how OCI is going, right? As in, more or fewer firms, etc.?

Slightly better than last hear, 5-10 more firms thus far is my estimate. The real hope is that firms that hire more heavily from WUSTL like Bryan Cave will have expanded their class sizes, IMO

And I know from good sources that they arent... [/quote]

The problem with the STL market is that it just ain't big enough. There are some individual firms in Chicago with SA classes comparable to all the NLJ 250 or comparable firms SA classes in STL combined. There are only a few firms that hire more than 5 SAs, and a few hire only 1-2. For those firms with very small SA sizes, the average student (even with good grades) stands almost no shot. That position is probably going to somebody who knows somebody.

This. With only 39 employers actually interviewing during EIW, the same people are going to get every interview. Since the top 5% can bid on every employer, why wouldn't they? Furthermore, 10 of those firms or so are in louisville, ohio, or minneapolis. I didn't expect it to be good, but not this bad. UCLA, 3 ranks up, has 200+ employers coming to campus for their first OCI, and a handful more resume collects. From talking with upper classmen, and seeing the list this year and infinite bids, the best chance at getting an OCI job if not top 10% is getting a lucky lottery interview at a firm that takes close to your cutoff. Very, very few people will get a job through OCI @ wustl. One of the biggest firms in St. Louis still hasn't even been added to the list. The other 8 firms in St. Louis are getting solid competition from SLU kids (Bryan cave takes more SLU kids than WUSTL) and from T14's wishing to return home. Add in the already small class sizes Romo talked about and even St. Louis is not a big market. Chicago? Good luck without top 10-20% grades and ties to the city.

[stratocophic]

On a related note, you guys are planning to share info about how OCI is going, right? As in, more or fewer firms, etc.?

Slightly better than last hear, 5-10 more firms thus far is my estimate. The real hope is that firms that hire more heavily from WUSTL like Bryan Cave will have expanded their class sizes, IMO

And I know from good sources that they arent...

The problem with the STL market is that it just ain't big enough. There are some individual firms in Chicago with SA classes comparable to all the NLJ 250 or comparable firms SA classes in STL combined. There are only a few firms that hire more than 5 SAs, and a few hire only 1-2. For those firms with very small SA sizes, the average student (even with good grades) stands almost no shot. That position is probably going to somebody who knows somebody.

This. With only 39 employers actually interviewing during EIW, the same people are going to get every interview. Since the top 5% can bid on every employer, why wouldn't they? Furthermore, 10 of those firms or so are in louisville, ohio, or minneapolis. I didn't expect it to be good, but not this bad. UCLA, 3 ranks up, has 200+ employers coming to campus for their first OCI, and a handful more resume collects. From talking with upper classmen, and seeing the list this year and infinite bids, the best chance at getting an OCI job if not top 10% is getting a lucky lottery interview at a firm that takes close to your cutoff. Very, very few people will get a job through OCI @ wustl. One of the biggest firms in St. Louis still hasn't even been added to the list. The other 8 firms in St. Louis are getting solid competition from SLU kids (Bryan cave takes more SLU kids than WUSTL) and from T14's wishing to return home. Add in the already small class sizes Romo talked about and even St. Louis is not a big market. Chicago? Good luck without top 10-20% grades and ties to the city.[/quote]TC won't be interviewing. I know someone who interviewed there for a 1L spot, evidently they're taking 1Ls to groom as associates and avoiding 2Ls for the most part, or something along those lines.

Sorry about the quote fail. My phone hates me.

[fl0w]

This. With only 39 employers actually interviewing during EIW, the same people are going to get every interview. Since the top 5% can bid on every employer, why wouldn't they? Furthermore, 10 of those firms or so are in louisville, ohio, or minneapolis. I didn't expect it to be good, but not this bad. UCLA, 3 ranks up, has 200+ employers coming to campus for their first OCI, and a handful more resume collects. From talking with upper classmen, and seeing the list this year and infinite bids, the best chance at getting an OCI job if not top 10% is getting a lucky lottery interview at a firm that takes close to your cutoff. Very, very few people will get a job through OCI @ wustl. One of the biggest firms in St. Louis still hasn't even been added to the list. The other 8 firms in St. Louis are getting solid competition from SLU kids (Bryan cave takes more SLU kids than WUSTL) and from T14's wishing to return home. Add in the already small class sizes Romo talked about and even St. Louis is not a big market. Chicago? Good luck without top 10-20% grades and ties to the city.

Don't get me wrong, congrats for them, but as part of the 90% that isn't in the top 10% it makes me feel like participating in any of our on campus recruiting is almost hopeless.

Of course I am still trying, but I'm really putting a lot of my focus into other avenues for finding a job. But then outside of cold emails, pursuing other career fairs, and keeping in touch with some of the people that I've met this summer, what else can I do?

But then again, maybe I'm overreacting a little bit. I suppose my odds were not any better for Loyola's IP fair, or for they Bay Area Diversity Career Fair... and I have managed to get a 7 or so interviews thus far for the summer with a few fairs left to deliver results. Far less than people that get that many from ONE fair when they are in the top 1/4 of the class, but it's something.

Ahh... am I just freaking out?

[thebigdog]

Strat - That is pretty sad news Some "lockdown" we have on the stl market.

fl0w - I'm jealous of your situation with IP and work experience. It's a very good sell to employers and congrats/goodluck on your interviews so far.

In response, I'm not sure what to do. I just know that I'm going to bust my ass (have been already) on finding a job and hoping the TLS advice on the site pays off in the end. If I don't have anything paid/chance of getting 3l from work this summer, it's not going to be for my lack of effort.

[stratocophic]

This. With only 39 employers actually interviewing during EIW, the same people are going to get every interview. Since the top 5% can bid on every employer, why wouldn't they? Furthermore, 10 of those firms or so are in louisville, ohio, or minneapolis. I didn't expect it to be good, but not this bad. UCLA, 3 ranks up, has 200+ employers coming to campus for their first OCI, and a handful more resume collects. From talking with upper classmen, and seeing the list this year and infinite bids, the best chance at getting an OCI job if not top 10% is getting a lucky lottery interview at a firm that takes close to your cutoff. Very, very few people will get a job through OCI @ wustl. One of the biggest firms in St. Louis still hasn't even been added to the list. The other 8 firms in St. Louis are getting solid competition from SLU kids (Bryan cave takes more SLU kids than WUSTL) and from T14's wishing to return home. Add in the already small class sizes Romo talked about and even St. Louis is not a big market. Chicago? Good luck without top 10-20% grades and ties to the city.

Don't get me wrong, congrats for them, but as part of the 90% that isn't in the top 10% it makes me feel like participating in any of our on campus recruiting is almost hopeless.

Of course I am still trying, but I'm really putting a lot of my focus into other avenues for finding a job. But then outside of cold emails, pursuing other career fairs, and keeping in touch with some of the people that I've met this summer, what else can I do?

But then again, maybe I'm overreacting a little bit. I suppose my odds were not any better for Loyola's IP fair, or for they Bay Area Diversity Career Fair... and I have managed to get a 7 or so interviews thus far for the summer with a few fairs left to deliver results. Far less than people that get that many from ONE fair when they are in the top 1/4 of the class, but it's something.

Ahh... am I just freaking out?

Yeah, I think so. If anyone's going to ride out sub-optimal grades, it would pretty much be you by default. You've got 7 thus far, and once you're in front of them, the interview is what matters (or so I'm told). Everyone's (including me, make no mistake - terrified) freaked out except the kids who are top 10% and law review - nature of the beast. Just have to send out as many apps as possible, know the firms we interview with cold, and cross fingers. I dunno what else to do.

Agreed, tbd. I think they've struggled ITE, which is part of it. Could just be an alternative approach to recruiting like Waller Landsen's doing, only they aren't publicizing it or anything. Could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure they specifically said they wanted the 1Ls back as 2Ls and beyond (and thus no need for more).

[fl0w]

I probably just had my freak-out in the wrong thread...

Sorry to the incoming 1Ls... uhh... it'll be great! you'll all get jobs! the law is fun!

[stratocophic]

I probably just had my freak-out in the wrong thread...

Sorry to the incoming 1Ls... uhh... it'll be great! you'll all get jobs! the law is fun!

Tbf, incoming 1Ls, anyone who doesn't feel like this at our peers and even up into the Gtown/Duke range is either overconfident or naive about the current state of legal recruiting. This isn't unique to WUSTL by any means.

[Hannibal]

I probably just had my freak-out in the wrong thread...

Sorry to the incoming 1Ls... uhh... it'll be great! you'll all get jobs! the law is fun!

Tbf, incoming 1Ls, anyone who doesn't feel like this at our peers and even up into the Gtown/Duke range is either overconfident or naive about the current state of legal recruiting. This isn't unique to WUSTL by any means.

I should hope that no incoming 0Ls expect law school to be a breeze or a guarantee at a good job. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that. Every day be WUSTLin. <__<

[romothesavior]

Wow, lots of things to say here...

1. Re: grading. Is there some luck involved? Yes. Can there be some arbitrary factors involved? Hell yes. I have complained about it many times (and some of the people ITT have heard me complain about it). Grading is not a perfect system, and some people do get screwed. But it ain't random, not in any sense of the word. I know that the whole "Grades are random" thing is a common TLS mantra, and I probably bought into it to some degree for a while. But after seeing it myself for a year, I have to conclude it is not random. Sure, I was surprised where some people wound up, but not enough times to make me throw my hands in the air and say "Well this is all just a roll of the dice!"

Inexplicable at times? Yes. Arbitrary and capricious? Sometimes yes. But not random.


2. I can sense a lot of discord and disappointment ITT and I certainly feel the same way many of you do. As most of you know, I came to WUSTL to stay in STL, and seeing just how few SA spots there are in the city has me pretty worried. The OCI bid list sucks hard. Getting a job at OCI is going to be hard for most people. People are going to have to scrap to get jobs outside of the region. And the jobs in the St. Louis and Chicago markets are going to be hard to come by.

But you know what? We knew all of this coming in. I know almost every single regular poster ITT, and almost every single regular poster ITT has been on TLS for well over a year now. We were fortunate to have had this info before we took the plunge. We all knew how rough the market is, we all knew that relying on the CSO or OCI or whatever was a bad idea, we knew the costs of law school and the risks associated with it, and we knew that the vast majority of the class would have to hustle to get a job. So while I completely understand the frustration and the fear (I'm feeling it too), we should all just remember that we chose this avenue willingly. Now, it is up to US to go out and make things happen, and play the cards we've been dealt as best we can.

That said, I hope the last few pages serve as a somber warning to any 0Ls reading right now. Things SUCK right now ITE, and you really have no way of knowing where you'll stand a year from now. Go into this with your eyes open, and do every little thing you can to put yourself in a position to succeed.


3. Just a random note, but Bryan Cave certainly does not recruit more heavily at SLU than WUSTL. Count up the attorneys. We have more attorneys at Bryan Cave than SLU does, and both the current managing partner and the former managing partner are WUSTL grads. I would guess that they dip almost twice as far into our class as they do into SLU's, and the only reason can even somewhat compete with us there is because of self-selection. Everyone and their mother at SLU applies to BC and is from STL. How many people in our top 10-15% are 1) from STL, 2) want to work in STL, or 3) even bothered applying to Bryan Cave?


4. Where is that number that UCLA has 200+ employers at their EIW coming from? I think you're using two different metrics (only counting unique employers doing interviews at our EIW vs. a much wider definition at UCLA). If UCLA really has 200+ unique employers coming to their EIW OCI to interview, then they are blowing away all of their peers, including Vandy.


5. I love how active this thread has been lately, and I hope the prospectives are getting a lot out of it. But let's just keep in mind that this is a Q&A thread. If we're going to commiserate together, let's do it in the c/o 2013 thread.

[0LNOOB]

Delete

[romothesavior]

Where are the firms coming to OCI located (other than Saint Louis). Chicago, Kansas City, Cleveland, Milwaukee? Any east coast firms as well?

There is a smattering of New York/D.C./Boston firms (there is a very small New England interviewing program on-campus), but most of the NYC firms interview from WUSTL at an off-campus interview program in NYC.

There are a few from KC, Indy, Milwaukee, and Cincinnati, but obviously none of those markets are very big and most require ties. There are actually a decent number of firms from Dallas involved with our OCI, which is a bit strange given how far away we are from there.

Overall though, I will agree with everyone else about our OCI. It sucks. In large part because we are so geographically inconvenient, the East/West coast firms do most of their interviewing at off-campus interviews. I am most disappointed by the lack of Chicago firms, though. It is supposedly our top market and it is only 5 hours away, but it feels very underrepresented.

The most important thing to remember is that you should be doing a job hunt on your own outside of OCI. A good number of people will snag jobs (even biglaw jobs) outside of OCI through mailings and being proactive. And so important (and often forgotten) is NETWORKING. Find a city you want to work in, and direct your energy towards that market. The CSO will help wherever possible, but do NOT rely on them.

[stratocophic]

Kind of ridiculous that KE Skadden and Sidley will all be there but not Mayer Brown and the rest that a tier down. That probably tells you all you need to know abou how they're doing vs the rest of the market... though I thought Skadden had cut its class and wasn't racing out of the ITE gate like Kirkland and the other V10s. Odd that they'd make the trip if that's the case.