WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:43 pm

hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.

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ek5dn
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby ek5dn » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:18 pm

sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great

acr
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby acr » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:20 pm

ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

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Jmart082
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Jmart082 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:22 pm

acr wrote:
ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

Just add it. You'll get in because lots of people drop it. The brief itself, which is the big writing assignment for the course can be kind of a nightmare if you decide to start on it close to the deadline. I suggest finishing it and prepping for oral arguments with any time that you have to spare. Otherwise, its not that bad.
Last edited by Jmart082 on Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:23 pm

ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great



Afaik you just sign up for it like a class then participate. You should be able to register for it in Webstac now. Seems like a stupid amount of work for one credit, but you probably should do it.

acr
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby acr » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:23 pm

Jmart082 wrote:
acr wrote:
ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

Just add it. You'll get in because lots of people drop it.


I know nothing about moot court. Which team should we try out for? There are like 10 teams it seems like.

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ek5dn
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby ek5dn » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:38 pm

Jmart082 wrote:
acr wrote:
ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

Just add it. You'll get in because lots of people drop it. The brief itself, which is the big writing assignment for the course can be kind of a nightmare if you decide to start on it close to the deadline. I suggest finishing it and prepping for oral arguments with any time that you have to spare. Otherwise, its not that bad.


Thanks, I added it! I'm on the waitlist, but it's short, so I think I'll get it.

robert88
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby robert88 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:25 pm

I signed up for moot court, but how does that go on the resume since we have not done it. Do we just reserve it for questions why aren't you on LR/journal?

sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby PeanutsNJam » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:42 pm

robert88 wrote:I signed up for moot court, but how does that go on the resume since we have not done it. Do we just reserve it for questions why aren't you on LR/journal?

sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I'm assuming you say stuff like you want oral advocacy experience and trial experience and value that over academic writing which will not be as applicable to actual practice, etc.

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lososos
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lososos » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:13 pm

acr wrote:
Jmart082 wrote:
acr wrote:
ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

Just add it. You'll get in because lots of people drop it.


I know nothing about moot court. Which team should we try out for? There are like 10 teams it seems like.


So I get the impression that most of the comments about moot court up to this point have been in relation to the Wiley Rutledge Moot Court, not the moot court teams. Having done both Wiley and the National Moot Cout team, I'll comment on both. This is sort of a long post, so I'm sorry for that; I just want to be as informative as possible!

Tldr: Wiley is good experience and won't take over your life; National Team is amazing but it might. I don't know anything about the other teams, but they seem like cool experiences as well. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

Long answer:
Wiley Rutledge is a class that you can sign up for on Webstac. Once you are enrolled, you choose a partner to do the competition with. There's an introductory meeting, which IIRC coincides with the drop deadline for the class, where you'll learn about the requirements. In a nutshell, those are: 1) with your partner, write a brief on the competition problem that is distributed, and 2) show up to, at least, the prelim round of oral arguments. If you score well you'll advance to the next round; after prelim there are four rounds, culminating in the finals. Requirement 3) is to attend the final round. Imo, it's sort of an extended version of the 1L oral arguments you guys had to do; it's a good primer on what moot court competition is like. The brief is sort of a pain since almost everyone waits to the last minute to write it, and the oral arguments can feel time consuming as well (especially if you actually bother practicing if you want to do well, or if you advance really far). But it's not an overwhelming experience, and I think it's worthwhile for pretty much everyone to do if they can.

The National team is not a class, but is a competition team that you need to try out to get onto. Tryouts are in September, and there's an intro meeting that'll tell you all about it, let you meet the coaches, etc. (the head coach is actually the same guy who runs Wiley, and who gave the presentation for 1L oral arguments, Prof Rich Finneran). Tryouts aren't suuuuper competitive, but they definitely aren't a cakewalk either. The team is only 12 students, and a max of 5 will be returning from this year. There's not a huge time commitment in the fall semester, you just have to attend a couple meetings and trainings, but over winter break and right at the beginning of spring semester, it gets going really fast. Same structure as Wiley basically (write your brief, do oral arguments) but it's on a more compressed timeline and once you start practicing for oral argument, you practice a lot. It sort of took over my life and I think it did the same for some of the other students as well. But you get awesome team bonding experience, and your skills improve dramatically. So if you can get on the team, it's an amazing experience.

typicalsplitter
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby typicalsplitter » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:57 pm

The above is all very good advice. To add a little bit:

robert88 wrote:I signed up for moot court, but how does that go on the resume since we have not done it. Do we just reserve it for questions why aren't you on LR/journal?


The same way you would do LR/journal. I think mine said something like (in the summer of 2015) "Wiley-Rutledge Moot Court (Fall 2015)"

MoonSugar wrote:Is it crazy to do both LR and Moot Court? I feel like it's a good idea in theory but I don't think I can manage the time well enough since I am also doing a clinic in the fall. I'm pretty sure I'll drop moot court, but wanted some input first.


This depends on:

1. Whether you're on LR or a secondary journal
2. What other classes you're taking
3. What clinic you're taking
4. Whether you care about doing well in moot court (as opposed to just getting the credit and resume line)
5. How good you are at time management

Including the research and the writing, I spent 25-30 hours on my moot court brief. But I think you can write an acceptable brief in much less time. So like I said, it depends on how much you care about doing well in the competition. Personally, I would've found it difficult to do both law review and moot court. But the secondary journals are significantly less time-consuming.

robert88
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby robert88 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:25 pm

typicalsplitter wrote:The above is all very good advice. To add a little bit:

robert88 wrote:I signed up for moot court, but how does that go on the resume since we have not done it. Do we just reserve it for questions why aren't you on LR/journal?


The same way you would do LR/journal. I think mine said something like (in the summer of 2015) "Wiley-Rutledge Moot Court (Fall 2015)"

MoonSugar wrote:Is it crazy to do both LR and Moot Court? I feel like it's a good idea in theory but I don't think I can manage the time well enough since I am also doing a clinic in the fall. I'm pretty sure I'll drop moot court, but wanted some input first.


This depends on:

1. Whether you're on LR or a secondary journal
2. What other classes you're taking
3. What clinic you're taking
4. Whether you care about doing well in moot court (as opposed to just getting the credit and resume line)
5. How good you are at time management

Including the research and the writing, I spent 25-30 hours on my moot court brief. But I think you can write an acceptable brief in much less time. So like I said, it depends on how much you care about doing well in the competition. Personally, I would've found it difficult to do both law review and moot court. But the secondary journals are significantly less time-consuming.


Thanks, that's very helpful!

AinsleyKs
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby AinsleyKs » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:35 am

You WashU kids keep me young. I always look forward to reading this thread.

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ek5dn
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby ek5dn » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:48 am

lososos wrote:
acr wrote:
Jmart082 wrote:
acr wrote:
ek5dn wrote:
sublime wrote:
hoos89 wrote:It's absolutely possible. You'd be better off if you had some excuse for not doing it other than sheer laziness (trial team or moot court), but it's not going to totally foreclose you from big law, and people do get it every year without doing a journal. Also, DC is a tough market to crack so don't focus too heavily on it.


Yea, I would definitely sign up for moot court (too late for Trial team, right?) and use that as much as possible.


I think it's too late for trial team. Is it competitive to sign up for moot court? I'll look into this, but if anyone has some info about how moot court works, that'd be great


+1

Just add it. You'll get in because lots of people drop it.


I know nothing about moot court. Which team should we try out for? There are like 10 teams it seems like.


So I get the impression that most of the comments about moot court up to this point have been in relation to the Wiley Rutledge Moot Court, not the moot court teams. Having done both Wiley and the National Moot Cout team, I'll comment on both. This is sort of a long post, so I'm sorry for that; I just want to be as informative as possible!

Tldr: Wiley is good experience and won't take over your life; National Team is amazing but it might. I don't know anything about the other teams, but they seem like cool experiences as well. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

Long answer:
Wiley Rutledge is a class that you can sign up for on Webstac. Once you are enrolled, you choose a partner to do the competition with. There's an introductory meeting, which IIRC coincides with the drop deadline for the class, where you'll learn about the requirements. In a nutshell, those are: 1) with your partner, write a brief on the competition problem that is distributed, and 2) show up to, at least, the prelim round of oral arguments. If you score well you'll advance to the next round; after prelim there are four rounds, culminating in the finals. Requirement 3) is to attend the final round. Imo, it's sort of an extended version of the 1L oral arguments you guys had to do; it's a good primer on what moot court competition is like. The brief is sort of a pain since almost everyone waits to the last minute to write it, and the oral arguments can feel time consuming as well (especially if you actually bother practicing if you want to do well, or if you advance really far). But it's not an overwhelming experience, and I think it's worthwhile for pretty much everyone to do if they can.

The National team is not a class, but is a competition team that you need to try out to get onto. Tryouts are in September, and there's an intro meeting that'll tell you all about it, let you meet the coaches, etc. (the head coach is actually the same guy who runs Wiley, and who gave the presentation for 1L oral arguments, Prof Rich Finneran). Tryouts aren't suuuuper competitive, but they definitely aren't a cakewalk either. The team is only 12 students, and a max of 5 will be returning from this year. There's not a huge time commitment in the fall semester, you just have to attend a couple meetings and trainings, but over winter break and right at the beginning of spring semester, it gets going really fast. Same structure as Wiley basically (write your brief, do oral arguments) but it's on a more compressed timeline and once you start practicing for oral argument, you practice a lot. It sort of took over my life and I think it did the same for some of the other students as well. But you get awesome team bonding experience, and your skills improve dramatically. So if you can get on the team, it's an amazing experience.



Hey! Thanks so much for the info. This was really helpful :)

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legit
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby legit » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:51 am

xxLawSchoolIsHardxx wrote:
Jay2716 wrote:
xxLawSchoolIsHardxx wrote:
legit wrote:Is there any way to tell whether the write-on competition was completed well or only dunked because of grades?


Are you asking whether people who graded on wrote well? B/c I guarantee you most of the people in the top 5% wrote shit b/c they knew they would just get on to LR. Congrats Wash U students, you've been railroaded once again.


People don't know they're top 5% until after write on.


Sounds like something someone not in the top 5% would say.


How can I improve my writing? What can I read?

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Sprout
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Sprout » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:03 pm

legit wrote:
How can I improve my writing? What can I read?


Both of these:
http://kmh-lanl.hansonhub.com/pc-24-66-vonnegut.pdf &
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=1

recommend The Elements of Style, coauthored by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. I think it's a great guide. It's not too long, either.

ETA: if you don't want to buy the book, read those articles above. TCR is cut stuff out. As acr says, the key is to omit needless words.
Last edited by Sprout on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

acr
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby acr » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:05 pm

Sprout wrote:
legit wrote:
How can I improve my writing? What can I read?


Both of these:
http://kmh-lanl.hansonhub.com/pc-24-66-vonnegut.pdf &
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=1

recommend The Elements of Style, coauthored by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. I think it's a great guide. It's not too long, either.


I found On Writing by Stephen King pretty great as well. King actually recommends Elements of Style in the book. One piece of advice in the book that has stuck with me, and that I think is great for law school, is "omit needless words."

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lososos
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lososos » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:28 pm

acr wrote:
Sprout wrote:
legit wrote:
How can I improve my writing? What can I read?


Both of these:
http://kmh-lanl.hansonhub.com/pc-24-66-vonnegut.pdf &
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=1

recommend The Elements of Style, coauthored by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. I think it's a great guide. It's not too long, either.


I found On Writing by Stephen King pretty great as well. King actually recommends Elements of Style in the book. One piece of advice in the book that has stuck with me, and that I think is great for law school, is "omit needless words."


These are good resources. I also like Steven Pinker's "The Sense of Style."

Also, for me, I don't think I got good at writing until I had to do it all the time (one of my college majors was philosophy, and we wrote zillions of papers). I really think it's something you improve with practice. So, some ideas for what you can do now/in the near future: take practice classes that have writing assignments and seek out feedback from professors; if you have any choice at your current summer job, try to take on writing assignments and seek out feedback from your supervisor(s); look for writing competitions and submit things to them (bonus: if you win you might get money); and try to write in your spare time (there are plenty of places you can look for prompts, I think there's even a Writing Prompts subreddit).

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legit
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby legit » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:38 pm

FuturePaulClement wrote:
Ref wrote:I knew the class of 2017 was bad, but you are beyond the pale.


I really hope you're not a rising 2L, because this past 1L class was notoriously dumb. I had heard rumors all year, but reading over those write-on submissions really hit it home for me.


Any specific constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

MtheG
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby MtheG » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:38 pm

Being a good writer takes a lot of work. With this said, your writing will naturally evolve and improve over the course of law school. Summer jobs will help you a lot and the seminar writing requirement will force you to write a very substantive paper. I also highly recommend taking Advanced Legal Writing if you want to do litigation. There is also a contract drafting class.

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legit
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby legit » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:42 pm

lososos wrote:
acr wrote:
Sprout wrote:
legit wrote:
How can I improve my writing? What can I read?


Both of these:
http://kmh-lanl.hansonhub.com/pc-24-66-vonnegut.pdf &
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=1

recommend The Elements of Style, coauthored by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. I think it's a great guide. It's not too long, either.


I found On Writing by Stephen King pretty great as well. King actually recommends Elements of Style in the book. One piece of advice in the book that has stuck with me, and that I think is great for law school, is "omit needless words."


These are good resources. I also like Steven Pinker's "The Sense of Style."

Also, for me, I don't think I got good at writing until I had to do it all the time (one of my college majors was philosophy, and we wrote zillions of papers). I really think it's something you improve with practice. So, some ideas for what you can do now/in the near future: take practice classes that have writing assignments and seek out feedback from professors; if you have any choice at your current summer job, try to take on writing assignments and seek out feedback from your supervisor(s); look for writing competitions and submit things to them (bonus: if you win you might get money); and try to write in your spare time (there are plenty of places you can look for prompts, I think there's even a Writing Prompts subreddit).


Thank you. Anything resources catered to law review?

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lososos
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lososos » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:02 pm

legit wrote:
lososos wrote:
acr wrote:
Sprout wrote:
legit wrote:
How can I improve my writing? What can I read?


Both of these:
http://kmh-lanl.hansonhub.com/pc-24-66-vonnegut.pdf &
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=1

recommend The Elements of Style, coauthored by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. I think it's a great guide. It's not too long, either.


I found On Writing by Stephen King pretty great as well. King actually recommends Elements of Style in the book. One piece of advice in the book that has stuck with me, and that I think is great for law school, is "omit needless words."


These are good resources. I also like Steven Pinker's "The Sense of Style."

Also, for me, I don't think I got good at writing until I had to do it all the time (one of my college majors was philosophy, and we wrote zillions of papers). I really think it's something you improve with practice. So, some ideas for what you can do now/in the near future: take practice classes that have writing assignments and seek out feedback from professors; if you have any choice at your current summer job, try to take on writing assignments and seek out feedback from your supervisor(s); look for writing competitions and submit things to them (bonus: if you win you might get money); and try to write in your spare time (there are plenty of places you can look for prompts, I think there's even a Writing Prompts subreddit).


Thank you. Anything resources catered to law review?


Is your concern with the note requirement, or the editing requirements, or something else? Knowing more about what you'd like to improve in relation to law review would help for giving suggestions :)

AntsInMyEyesJohnson
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby AntsInMyEyesJohnson » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:20 pm

It's bittersweet to see that this thread is back on topic, but since it is: what sorts jobs are Wash U grads getting in the St. Louis area? There's a decent amount of info on how Wash U does with Stl Biglaw, but what about outside of that?

Thanks!

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RareExports
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RareExports » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:28 pm

JCougar wrote:
AntsInMyEyesJohnson wrote:
It's bittersweet to see that this thread is back on topic, but since it is: what sorts jobs are Wash U grads getting in the St. Louis area? There's a decent amount of info on how Wash U does with Stl Biglaw, but what about outside of that?

Thanks!


JCougar call-in

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FuturePaulClement
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby FuturePaulClement » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:59 pm

MtheG wrote:Being a good writer takes a lot of work. With this said, your writing will naturally evolve and improve over the course of law school. Summer jobs will help you a lot and the seminar writing requirement will force you to write a very substantive paper. I also highly recommend taking Advanced Legal Writing if you want to do litigation. There is also a contract drafting class.


I disagree. In second grade I was placed in an advanced literacy program organized by my school district, I had two editorials published in prominent New York newspapers prior to coming to law school, and I received a 3.93 and a 4.12 (cali) in my 1L legal research courses with minimal effort. Writers are born, not made.




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