WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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valen
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby valen » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:14 am

Is it better to wait to apply until you find out about journals, or better to apply now and update once you find out?

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RareExports
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RareExports » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:25 pm

You should know about journal by OCI bid deadline. So for interview program purposes, wait.

I have sent off a few direct send applications already though, and have a line of my resume that goes something like, "Journal decision forthcoming." I think it's a matter of personal preference, really.

tebowtime23
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby tebowtime23 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:27 pm

When should we start doing direct send cover letter/resume applications to big firms that won't be attending our OCI?

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Joscellin
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Joscellin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:57 pm

tebowtime23 wrote:When should we start doing direct send cover letter/resume applications to big firms that won't be attending our OCI?


I don't see any harm in doing so now.

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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:58 pm

tebowtime23 wrote:When should we start doing direct send cover letter/resume applications to big firms that won't be attending our OCI?



Yea, now is probably fine, but there is a lot of Massmailing shit on the employment subforum if you want to look around.

tebowtime23
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby tebowtime23 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:05 pm

sublime wrote:
tebowtime23 wrote:When should we start doing direct send cover letter/resume applications to big firms that won't be attending our OCI?



Yea, now is probably fine, but there is a lot of Massmailing shit on the employment subforum if you want to look around.


thanks for the tip!

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:24 pm

I actually think it's best to send stuff before you get the journal selection, and include a line in the cover letter saying you'll send an update next month with your journal. That let's you get in early and gives you a good excuse to update in July. The absolute latest you should be sending your applications is mid July. Everyone should be doing this, even the people at the top. Now is not the time to get complacent, and even if you get an offer from OCI anyway, it's good to have options.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:26 am

What's the word about direct sending firms coming to OCI/EIW? Just wait?

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Jmart082
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Jmart082 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:12 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:What's the word about direct sending firms coming to OCI/EIW? Just wait?

It can't hurt. There's sometimes a disconnect in terms of the personnel that they send to recruiting events compared to those who handle all other inquiries, so sometimes you can get a response through one channel much faster than you would through the other.

Pro Brono
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Pro Brono » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:30 pm

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Last edited by Pro Brono on Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:40 pm

Jmart082 wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:What's the word about direct sending firms coming to OCI/EIW? Just wait?

It can't hurt. There's sometimes a disconnect in terms of the personnel that they send to recruiting events compared to those who handle all other inquiries, so sometimes you can get a response through one channel much faster than you would through the other.


I'm not sure I'd say it CAN'T hurt. It might look lazy/careless ("doesn't he know we're coming to OCI?"). I would not send to offices at OCI until you know whether you've gotten an interview yet (and honestly there's not that many). You can send them apps if you don't get a screener, and I actually did get a couple screeners from mass-mail at firms that I didn't get interviews with at OCI.

Also be careful about offices, especially for firms in more insular markets. It's going to be tough to sell that you really want STL to Bryan Cave if you've applied to their DC and Chicago offices. I generally would only send multiple apps to major firms and then only where there's a unique recruiter in the office. That lets me not say "hey I'm interested in these 12 offices," and just send one e-mail/app to each person; yeah it might cause you to miss out on some firms, but I reason that it'll also cause you to get interviews that I wouldn't otherwise get. Personally I think it more than balances out, but it's a judgment call because you just can't know. And given the response times on some of the interviews I got (seriously got one in 5 minutes once) I know they're not all checking a database before sending out interview requests. Also something I learned: Latham will only let you apply to one office (I got a call asking me to choose, although I never did get a screener), and I think the same goes for Jones Day.

Another protip: if you're going to be in the area, and you are going to have some extra time for interviews, TELL FIRMS. This lets them interview you without paying to bring you in. They like that. This is probably most effective if you're targeting a non-STL secondary, but still helps with major firms. I got a couple interviews in DC doing this. Granted YMMV and all that. You can even do this if you're not even really "planning" to be there. You can book a refundable flight/hotel and send e-mails letting people know you'll be there (preferably a week+ in advance). If you don't get anything, just cancel.

And another thing: find an excuse to update every 2-3 weeks. Keep track of every application you've sent and whether you've gotten a response, and send updates to every place that hasn't rejected you or given you an interview. Preferably have something to actually update (which is why I like the idea of sending apps pre-journal decision because it's a ready-made excuse). Be strategic about when you send updates though; I wouldn't send the app today and update next week with journal decisions.

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Joscellin
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Joscellin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:58 pm

Looks like at least one LRM section had a CALI of 3.76, so at least it's not totally unheard of for that to happen (re: DBT fall).

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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Joscellin wrote:Looks like at least one LRM section had a CALI of 3.76, so at least it's not totally unheard of for that to happen (re: DBT fall).


Lrm doesn't really count.

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Joscellin
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Joscellin » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:15 pm

sublime wrote:
Joscellin wrote:Looks like at least one LRM section had a CALI of 3.76, so at least it's not totally unheard of for that to happen (re: DBT fall).


Lrm doesn't really count.


Well, sure. Just establishes that, as far as the general grading scheme, it's not completely unprecedented. (Doesn't speak to whether it *should* be or not, though)

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valen
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby valen » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:17 pm

Pro Brono wrote:
valen wrote:Is it better to wait to apply until you find out about journals, or better to apply now and update once you find out?

You're going to find out about journals this weekend. I would just wait

Awesome!

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:54 pm

Joscellin wrote:
sublime wrote:
Joscellin wrote:Looks like at least one LRM section had a CALI of 3.76, so at least it's not totally unheard of for that to happen (re: DBT fall).


Lrm doesn't really count.


Well, sure. Just establishes that, as far as the general grading scheme, it's not completely unprecedented. (Doesn't speak to whether it *should* be or not, though)


Yeah but the LRM exam is completely different from a doctrinal exam. It's harder to differentiate yourself on it.

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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:31 pm

Anybody have a guess when cutoffs will be out?

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:03 pm

sublime wrote:Anybody have a guess when cutoffs will be out?


Cuttoffs last year were 6/11...sooo any minute/day now?

MtheG
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby MtheG » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:41 pm

Anyone know anything about JD/MBA outcomes? Just had the semester of my life as a 2L where I went from median to the top third (assuming the cutoff isn't higher than a 3.67) and CALId a few classes. I am at a small firm this summer that is nice but not a guaranteed job. I know that this place is hit or miss for advice but I am looking for perspectives on whether I should add the MBA and get a second shot at OCI or just man it up and possibly not get an offer and go on the 3L market. Honestly, I would really like to clerk but I think my good grades came a little too late. I have applied to a few judges and have good recommenders. Any advice would be really appreciated.

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sublime
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:42 pm

hoos89 wrote:
sublime wrote:Anybody have a guess when cutoffs will be out?


Cuttoffs last year were 6/11...sooo any minute/day now?



Thanks for the info man.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:57 pm

MtheG wrote:Anyone know anything about JD/MBA outcomes? Just had the semester of my life as a 2L where I went from median to the top third (assuming the cutoff isn't higher than a 3.67) and CALId a few classes. I am at a small firm this summer that is nice but not a guaranteed job. I know that this place is hit or miss for advice but I am looking for perspectives on whether I should add the MBA and get a second shot at OCI or just man it up and possibly not get an offer and go on the 3L market. Honestly, I would really like to clerk but I think my good grades came a little too late. I have applied to a few judges and have good recommenders. Any advice would be really appreciated.


I did JD/MBA and got an offer from OCI (but I was higher than top 1/3). I know several people who did the same as well as a couple who struck out again. It's getting a tad late to apply so you might want to e-mail Joe Fox and ask about it ASAP. You'll need to take the GMAT, and classes start late July/early August so it's really tough to balance OCI and class (because a lot of the professors are serious dicks about letting you miss for interviews). It might be possible for you to drop out of the MBA after fall and just finish up law school in the spring depending on where you are credits-wise so there's that (I'd only ask the law school people about that though as I don't think anyone MBA-side would appreciate that). You could also just try to get an MBA job.

Top 1/3 is still not a great place to be for getting stuff via OCI, but you'll probably still have a better chance at landing a big firm job if you do the MBA. There's a lot of things to consider though such as: 1) finances (what's your law school scholarship and what your MBA scholarship ends up being), 2) whether you want to be in school for another year (I'm also not a huge fan of the MBA coursework; lots of busy work and total BS classes), and 3) whether you're okay with being pigeonholed into transactional practice areas.

MtheG
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby MtheG » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:04 pm

Thanks for the advice! I have the MBA interview coming up and took the GRE so the requirements are all good. I am just trying to balance the pros and cons and wanted to see what the real deal outcomes are. I know that the JD/MBA program sends a lot of people to Kirkland and I know that a few people do get very decent MBA jobs since their hiring season seems to be later and a bit different than ours. I stroked out at OCI last time but got more than my fair share of screeners and callbacks when I was even below median. Now, with a really good corps score and some CALIs I am feeling more confident and just don't want to waste an opportunity. In any case, I sincerely appreciate the advice and the inside look.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:13 pm

I'm not sure if I'd say the MBA program sends a LOT of people to Kirkland. I know in my year 2 happened to go there but that may have just been a coincidence. I don't know anything about a longer term trend. If you want to discuss more feel free to PM me.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:50 pm

Two people from my class went to Kirkland. Both were URM and at least top 10% and law review, although I'm pretty sure both were top 5%. None did the MBA program.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:19 pm

I didn't realize this until just now, but the Biglaw numbers for c/o 2015 were released a few months ago, and WUSTL came in at 13.53%. That's under the National Law Journal's yearly rankings, which set the cutoff at the 100 largest firms.

That's basically 0 improvement from two years prior. Some people insisted to me that things had gotten better. Maybe the classes in school now will actually catch a break. It's just a warning that the people that are open about whether they got a good job are usually loud about it, and people who haven't gotten one are usually pretty quiet and withdrawn. If that's the number, plenty of people in the top third got screwed...not to mention the bottom 67%.

Most of the people from my class have barely made any progress paying down their debt, even if they got Biglaw. Living on the coasts is extremely expensive, and a lot of people will end up having a very short tenure in Biglaw. And you'll likely spend a few months unemployed/in doc review in between jobs, because the market for laterals is bad, too.




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