WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:58 am

I'm pretty sure the numbers are materially higher now, and there are six figure jobs besides the handful of firms you mentioned.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:26 pm

I don't know if they're higher in raw numbers...the percentages have been slightly higher simply because the classes are smaller.

As far as the other St. Louis jobs being six figures, I mean, I know the firms these people are working at. I've been in them. One pays you $40K per year to work in a supply closet because the guy is too cheap to get a larger office space. I actually did a 2-week project for him once while waiting for my bar results. My biggest regret was not taking a picture, because a lot of people don't believe me. Another fellow grad cobbles together 2-3 part-time jobs doing divorce court stuff. Both of these people were lower-end cum laude. One of my friends in Chicago started out working for a personal injury solo for an hourly rate. I don't know exactly what he made, but when I told him I was working on a document review project that paid $21/hour, he stated that that was "a lot." He lateraled to a "better" PI firm eventually, but he was living with his parents for his first year out of law school because he couldn't afford rent. In fact, I know at least three people from my class in the Chicago area that moved back in with their parents to help pay bills. A few of them were cum laude. And I haven't even begun to talk about the group of us doing document review.

A lot of people are doing insurance defense, which doesn't even come close to 6-figures. In St. Louis, starting salary for insurance defense is around $35k/year, but can be more than that at "higher end" firms.

One guy from my class decided right away to just go straight into finance, which was probably a good move, but something you could have done without a JD.

This notion that there's $100K jobs out there that are not biglaw is largely a myth, especially in the Midwest. I can think of maybe 2-3 people in my class that got something like that, and none of them in St. Louis or Chicago.

If WUSTL is going to keep attracting the classes it does, it really, really has to work on its placement, which is significantly worse than its peers.

FWIW, this is a general summary of what happens to you at median at WUSTL.

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splitterfromhell
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby splitterfromhell » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:19 pm

Interesting. Thanks. So if one finds oneself at median after 1L, is transferring to T14 possible?

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:26 pm

I've interviewed at multiple such firms in St. Louis (KT and an employment boutique whose name I can't recall), but also you didn't mention every big firm in the area that hires from WUSTL (Husch was notably absent, for instance, and they take a couple every year, and also a handful of others that might take 1-2 in a given year). Also I think BC takes more now.

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MarkinKansasCity
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:29 pm

splitterfromhell wrote:Interesting. Thanks. So if one finds oneself at median after 1L, is transferring to T14 possible?


This is a bad plan and a bad question, and you should not be asking it because you have no idea where you're going to land in the class. If you don't want to graduate from Wustl, don't matriculate.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chingwoo » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:34 pm

JCougar wrote:I don't know if they're higher in raw numbers...the percentages have been slightly higher simply because the classes are smaller.

As far as the other St. Louis jobs being six figures, I mean, I know the firms these people are working at. I've been in them. One pays you $40K per year to work in a supply closet because the guy is too cheap to get a larger office space. I actually did a 2-week project for him once while waiting for my bar results. My biggest regret was not taking a picture, because a lot of people don't believe me. Another fellow grad cobbles together 2-3 part-time jobs doing divorce court stuff. Both of these people were lower-end cum laude. One of my friends in Chicago started out working for a personal injury solo for an hourly rate. I don't know exactly what he made, but when I told him I was working on a document review project that paid $21/hour, he stated that that was "a lot." He lateraled to a "better" PI firm eventually, but he was living with his parents for his first year out of law school because he couldn't afford rent. In fact, I know at least three people from my class in the Chicago area that moved back in with their parents to help pay bills. A few of them were cum laude. And I haven't even begun to talk about the group of us doing document review.

A lot of people are doing insurance defense, which doesn't even come close to 6-figures. In St. Louis, starting salary for insurance defense is around $35k/year, but can be more than that at "higher end" firms.

One guy from my class decided right away to just go straight into finance, which was probably a good move, but something you could have done without a JD.

This notion that there's $100K jobs out there that are not biglaw is largely a myth, especially in the Midwest. I can think of maybe 2-3 people in my class that got something like that, and none of them in St. Louis or Chicago.

If WUSTL is going to keep attracting the classes it does, it really, really has to work on its placement, which is significantly worse than its peers.

FWIW, this is a general summary of what happens to you at median at WUSTL.


More recently, more than 10% of my class(2017) got 1L Summer Associate offers that paid 2K+ a week. At least 12 different people received 1L Summer offers at the "biglaw" firms in St. Louis. Additionally, AT didn't even have summers last year.

Yes we aren't T14 caliber, but in the T20 sphere for the past two years, WUSTL has been doing quite well. Our numbers probably are closing in on 40% or so for Summer gigs paying 1500+ a week. (This includes Tax internships + true midsize firms where a few people are going).

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:44 pm

hoos89 wrote:I've interviewed at multiple such firms in St. Louis (KT and an employment boutique whose name I can't recall), but also you didn't mention every big firm in the area that hires from WUSTL (Husch was notably absent, for instance, and they take a couple every year, and also a handful of others that might take 1-2 in a given year). Also I think BC takes more now.


I didn't forget about Husch...they just didn't hire anyone from my class at all.

It's good to know Bryan Cave is hiring more though.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:49 pm

JCougar wrote:
star fox wrote:Sidley nearly doubled their class size this year.


That's encouraging, because not a single person from my class got a job there despite its proximity and size. Completely shut out, no matter what your grades.

And from the looks of their website, they have three attorneys from c/o 2014 (two in Chicago), and only one from 2015. To get jobs at firms like these in Chicago from WUSTL, you pretty much have to be in the top 10%, and it's better if you're in the top 5%. Slightly more leniency if you're IP or URM.

IIT-Kent seriously has better CSO placement in Chicago than does WUSTL. I got nearly a full scholarship there--I shouldn't have turned it down. I really hope the new CSO can figure out how to make inroads into this market...because the St. Louis market isn't open to outsiders, and is only large enough to absorb less than a dozen graduates per year.

Yeah I agree there isn't a really strong foothold of WUSTL in Chicago as there is with say Illinois and Notre Dame, and some of the local Chicago schools like Loyola, Kent, and DePaul with worse overall job placement, that can make it difficult for a WUSTLer who is specifically focused on Chicago.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:00 pm

I mean, it's hard to put all the blame on the CSO...Tier 1 Midwestern schools suffered severe placement drops all over the place after the 2008 crash. Biglaw placement from places like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa, and even Michigan is really suffering. A lot of these schools used to at least a handful of their Top 10% to Chicago. Not any more. And it's never really recovered much.

There's got to be a way of getting somewhat healther markets like NYC to hire deeper into WUSTL's class. These firms will hire more people from Fordham, BC, and BU than they will from WUSTL, despite WUSTL's class profile being much better. That doesn't make much sense to me, especially with the off campus regional interview programs they have set up--eliminating the firm's travel costs.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:22 pm

chingwoo wrote:
JCougar wrote:I don't know if they're higher in raw numbers...the percentages have been slightly higher simply because the classes are smaller.

As far as the other St. Louis jobs being six figures, I mean, I know the firms these people are working at. I've been in them. One pays you $40K per year to work in a supply closet because the guy is too cheap to get a larger office space. I actually did a 2-week project for him once while waiting for my bar results. My biggest regret was not taking a picture, because a lot of people don't believe me. Another fellow grad cobbles together 2-3 part-time jobs doing divorce court stuff. Both of these people were lower-end cum laude. One of my friends in Chicago started out working for a personal injury solo for an hourly rate. I don't know exactly what he made, but when I told him I was working on a document review project that paid $21/hour, he stated that that was "a lot." He lateraled to a "better" PI firm eventually, but he was living with his parents for his first year out of law school because he couldn't afford rent. In fact, I know at least three people from my class in the Chicago area that moved back in with their parents to help pay bills. A few of them were cum laude. And I haven't even begun to talk about the group of us doing document review.

A lot of people are doing insurance defense, which doesn't even come close to 6-figures. In St. Louis, starting salary for insurance defense is around $35k/year, but can be more than that at "higher end" firms.

One guy from my class decided right away to just go straight into finance, which was probably a good move, but something you could have done without a JD.

This notion that there's $100K jobs out there that are not biglaw is largely a myth, especially in the Midwest. I can think of maybe 2-3 people in my class that got something like that, and none of them in St. Louis or Chicago.

If WUSTL is going to keep attracting the classes it does, it really, really has to work on its placement, which is significantly worse than its peers.

FWIW, this is a general summary of what happens to you at median at WUSTL.


More recently, more than 10% of my class(2017) got 1L Summer Associate offers that paid 2K+ a week. At least 12 different people received 1L Summer offers at the "biglaw" firms in St. Louis. Additionally, AT didn't even have summers last year.

Yes we aren't T14 caliber, but in the T20 sphere for the past two years, WUSTL has been doing quite well. Our numbers probably are closing in on 40% or so for Summer gigs paying 1500+ a week. (This includes Tax internships + true midsize firms where a few people are going).


For my current 1L year, I can confirm 4 at Lewis Rice, 2 at Greensfelder, 1 at Thompson Coburn, 1 at Polsinelli, 1 at Shook Hardy (KC). I haven't asked around enough so I don't know about Lathrop, Littler, Armstrong, Husch, or Bryan Cave. I'd assume between those five firms, there are at least another two or three WUSTL 1L SAs. That's 9 confirmed 1L SAs in Missouri alone. I also know of 1 1L SA in Minneapolis. Personally I know of 10 people with 1L SAs, and I don't spend lots of time getting into everybody's business. I wouldn't be surprised if over 20 people (10% of my class) have 1L SAs. Given that 1L SAs are substantially harder to get than 2L SAs, things really aren't as bleak as JCougar is making them seem. I forgot, I also know of one person who turned down a 1L SA offer in St. Louis for something in Chicago. Granted, a huge chunk of these SAs are URM.

Is it likely for you to get a 2L SA from median? No, it's no T14, but it's not all death and decay here.

However, if you have median grades, are not personable or likable in an interview, and have no other value-adding characteristics, you are in a pretty bad position. On the flip side, being able to sell yourself, present yourself well, and connect with the interviewer can make up for non-top 15% grades, especially in the Midwest.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:58 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:However, if you have median grades, are not personable or likable in an interview, and have no other value-adding characteristics, you are in a pretty bad position. On the flip side, being able to sell yourself, present yourself well, and connect with the interviewer can make up for non-top 15% grades, especially in the Midwest.


You should probably qualify this with the fact that, beyond the top 25% or so (maybe 33% at some firms), you won't get the interview in the first place no matter what. So you will not have the opportunity to sell yourself and present yourself well, and your resume will go straight into the trash.

I graduated median, probably applied to 500 different firms and government agencies. Over the course of 3 years, I've gotten 5 total interviews, and one of them wasn't in law. Another two were simply courtesy interviews for agencies that never got the budget to hire.

That's the reality from WUSTL median. You simply will not get the opportunity to even get your foot in the door. And with the smaller firms that aren't as concerned about grades, being from outside the St. Louis area is a huge, huge negative, so it's difficult to work your way into these firms as well. If you go to the CSO for help, they will refer you to document review.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby PeanutsNJam » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:07 pm

I know a 3.58 (median 3.55) who got an interview with one of the big firms at Spring OCI. Granted he didn't get a callback, but I wouldn't be surprised if people between the top 3rd and median can get a handful of interviews so long as they aren't picky about their location or firm or anything.

A lot of it is presentation and other factors beyond grades and school prestige. Again, wustl is not a T14, but with the right assets and personality you could snag a legal job. You're certainly not barred from PI/unprestigious fedgov. Like you're not guaranteed to a life of failure if you're median here. You do have to be very proactive in the job search, resume building, networking, etc.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:39 pm

JCougar wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:However, if you have median grades, are not personable or likable in an interview, and have no other value-adding characteristics, you are in a pretty bad position. On the flip side, being able to sell yourself, present yourself well, and connect with the interviewer can make up for non-top 15% grades, especially in the Midwest.


You should probably qualify this with the fact that, beyond the top 25% or so (maybe 33% at some firms), you won't get the interview in the first place no matter what. So you will not have the opportunity to sell yourself and present yourself well, and your resume will go straight into the trash.

I graduated median, probably applied to 500 different firms and government agencies. Over the course of 3 years, I've gotten 5 total interviews, and one of them wasn't in law. Another two were simply courtesy interviews for agencies that never got the budget to hire.

That's the reality from WUSTL median. You simply will not get the opportunity to even get your foot in the door. And with the smaller firms that aren't as concerned about grades, being from outside the St. Louis area is a huge, huge negative, so it's difficult to work your way into these firms as well. If you go to the CSO for help, they will refer you to document review.


This is less true now. I know a random white dude at a V20 in NYC who I'm pretty sure isn't top 1/3. Maybe he has some crazy connections I don't know about, but people definitely can get interviews below top 1/3 now. Uphill battle for sure, but things are better than they were a few years ago.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby xspider » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:08 pm

hoos89 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:However, if you have median grades, are not personable or likable in an interview, and have no other value-adding characteristics, you are in a pretty bad position. On the flip side, being able to sell yourself, present yourself well, and connect with the interviewer can make up for non-top 15% grades, especially in the Midwest.


You should probably qualify this with the fact that, beyond the top 25% or so (maybe 33% at some firms), you won't get the interview in the first place no matter what. So you will not have the opportunity to sell yourself and present yourself well, and your resume will go straight into the trash.

I graduated median, probably applied to 500 different firms and government agencies. Over the course of 3 years, I've gotten 5 total interviews, and one of them wasn't in law. Another two were simply courtesy interviews for agencies that never got the budget to hire.

That's the reality from WUSTL median. You simply will not get the opportunity to even get your foot in the door. And with the smaller firms that aren't as concerned about grades, being from outside the St. Louis area is a huge, huge negative, so it's difficult to work your way into these firms as well. If you go to the CSO for help, they will refer you to document review.


This is less true now. I know a random white dude at a V20 in NYC who I'm pretty sure isn't top 1/3. Maybe he has some crazy connections I don't know about, but people definitely can get interviews below top 1/3 now. Uphill battle for sure, but things are better than they were a few years ago.

Thanks a bunch everyone for contributing, we discussed how median, top 3rd, URM and such perform at OCI. But how about at the job fairs? One of the things I do love about WUSTL is that they offer four or five different job fairs(I think half are for minorities) so there are more bites at the apple.

How do students fare at these job fairs?

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valen
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby valen » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:22 pm

xspider wrote:Thanks a bunch everyone for contributing, we discussed how median, top 3rd, URM and such perform at OCI. But how about at the job fairs? One of the things I do love about WUSTL is that they offer four or five different job fairs(I think half are for minorities) so there are more bites at the apple.

How do students fare at these job fairs?


I found out about/applied to/and was offered 3 jobs based on job fairs. It was a diversity fair and I'm a 1L.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby xspider » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:15 pm

valen wrote:
xspider wrote:Thanks a bunch everyone for contributing, we discussed how median, top 3rd, URM and such perform at OCI. But how about at the job fairs? One of the things I do love about WUSTL is that they offer four or five different job fairs(I think half are for minorities) so there are more bites at the apple.

How do students fare at these job fairs?


I found out about/applied to/and was offered 3 jobs based on job fairs. It was a diversity fair and I'm a 1L.

May I PM you?

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby PeanutsNJam » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:28 pm

If by "job fairs" you mean resume dump type things, I only know of one OCI-type Diversity thing done during Spring 1L (stl firms only). These job fairs function the same as OCI. It makes no difference.

If you're talking about "meet-and-greet" type job fairs, those are worthless. Every student there is trying to offer their fellatio services. You can build connections at other events; going to an "employer showcase" is an utter waste of your time.

chingwoo
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chingwoo » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:10 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:If by "job fairs" you mean resume dump type things, I only know of one OCI-type Diversity thing done during Spring 1L (stl firms only). These job fairs function the same as OCI. It makes no difference.

If you're talking about "meet-and-greet" type job fairs, those are worthless. Every student there is trying to offer their fellatio services. You can build connections at other events; going to an "employer showcase" is an utter waste of your time.


There are multiple fairs or diversity programs out there for 1Ls and generally WUSTL does well outside of the St. Louis market due to our massive grade inflation.

I will also point out that I got killed at the off-campus programs and at WUSTL's actual OCI in getting screeners but did really really well in massmail/diversity fairs.

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valen
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby valen » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:51 am

xspider wrote:
valen wrote:
xspider wrote:Thanks a bunch everyone for contributing, we discussed how median, top 3rd, URM and such perform at OCI. But how about at the job fairs? One of the things I do love about WUSTL is that they offer four or five different job fairs(I think half are for minorities) so there are more bites at the apple.

How do students fare at these job fairs?


I found out about/applied to/and was offered 3 jobs based on job fairs. It was a diversity fair and I'm a 1L.

May I PM you?

Sure of course

MtheG
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby MtheG » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:50 pm

Just did a count of 2Ls that I know who have a job making over $900 a week. The number is 51 but I am sure I am missing many more. We did really good good with firms supposedly. Also know that at least 2-3 have lined up COA gigs. Class size is 236. I am only reporting this because I think it is a service to the OLs and the 1Ls because Career Services is extremely tight with their information.

xspider
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby xspider » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:03 pm

MtheG wrote:Just did a count of 2Ls that I know who have a job making over $900 a week. The number is 51 but I am sure I am missing many more. We did really good good with firms supposedly. Also know that at least 2-3 have lined up COA gigs. Class size is 236. I am only reporting this because I think it is a service to the OLs and the 1Ls because Career Services is extremely tight with their information.

Thank you. Does anyone know when the schools are obligated to send employment reports to the ABA?

I am fiending for some new LST scores!

Cellar-door
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Cellar-door » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:59 pm

xspider wrote:
MtheG wrote:Just did a count of 2Ls that I know who have a job making over $900 a week. The number is 51 but I am sure I am missing many more. We did really good good with firms supposedly. Also know that at least 2-3 have lined up COA gigs. Class size is 236. I am only reporting this because I think it is a service to the OLs and the 1Ls because Career Services is extremely tight with their information.

Thank you. Does anyone know when the schools are obligated to send employment reports to the ABA?

I am fiending for some new LST scores!

It was either last week or the week before I believe.

theycallmefoes
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby theycallmefoes » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:17 pm

Anyone else have tips for Religion & the Constitution (Inazu), 14th Amendment Equal Protection & Due Process (Richards; formerly Con Law II), & Legislation (Magarian)?

Outlines/notes would be incredibly helpful, so please PM me if you have materials you're willing to share. I'm desperate. Thanks!

bluedolphin
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby bluedolphin » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:37 pm

MtheG wrote:Just did a count of 2Ls that I know who have a job making over $900 a week. The number is 51 but I am sure I am missing many more. We did really good good with firms supposedly. Also know that at least 2-3 have lined up COA gigs. Class size is 236. I am only reporting this because I think it is a service to the OLs and the 1Ls because Career Services is extremely tight with their information.


My count is 72 for just BigLaw. I also don't know many of the LR folks and others so the number is probably closer to 85. Transfers lit it up as well, from what I know more than 50% of the people that transferred out are going BL and I haven't heard about alot of the people who went HSCCNPB.

I think out of the incoming class of 270ish, there are around 100-110 doing BL summer associate gigs. In addition there are a double digit amount of people doing SEC/IRS/Big 4/JD-MBA jobs and probably 20-30 people dead set on public interest.

acr
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby acr » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:46 pm

They put up the classes for next fall today.

Anybody taken Law and Econ with DeGeest?

I had DeGeest for Contracts and it was my best class and I liked his economic approach to the subject

Curious how his Law & Econ compares and wondering if it's not totally useless




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