WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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LET'S GET IT
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby LET'S GET IT » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:02 am

It's really hard to overcome. Most of these firms have been burnt multiple times by people saying all the right things you mentioned only to bolt to NYC the first chance they get. I made every effort to demonstrate that I want to be in STL long term (because I do) and the firms just won't bite. And I'm from a neiboring state. Multiply that if you're from somewhere better.

I haven't really interviewed with the non firm type places you mentioned. I would imagine ties would be less important for gigs like that, but that's just speculation on my part.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:14 am

mornincounselor wrote:Ah, those bloody ties. Young people can't help where they grew up at. One would think law school should be a chance to select a new locale.

"My parents lived in region Y, I hate region Y despite growing up there.I purposely selected this school in region X, I did summer work in region x, I'm involved with organizations in region x, all my law school friends/colleagues are in region x, ect."

An argument like this won't fly? Employers in region x won't hire me because I might suddenly bolt back to region y? Is that the rational? Being born in California/NY, brings with it this presumption that one loves California/NY? Hmmph.

Let's forgot large firms for a second. If someone moves to WashU from outside the region and (starting with their 1L summer) begins gunning hard for midwestern pd/da type jobs are there these same fears there?


Words are cheap and training new attorneys is expensive. Just coming to WUSTL doesn't really commit you to stay in STL for the rest of your career. Yeah you're better off than someone who's never even been here, but you're just never going to be on the same level as someone from the area. Why take the risk when there's a bunch of STL natives gunning for the same position? I don't think it's as much of an issue for PD/DA, though. For them you have to be able to sell your belief in what they do.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby mornincounselor » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:26 am

Fair enough. Not what I want to hear, but thanks for the honesty.

I assume it doesn't even matter where in the state you're from? Once they see someone "grew up in NY" they won't even care to hear that one's tiny rural farming hometown is the polar opposite of the NYC metropolis they probably imagine?

One can weave a fantastic story, but not if they don't even let you in the door in the first place.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby LET'S GET IT » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:33 am

Your assumption would be correct. Even if you are from a small town in Missoruri that's a couple hours from STL, you would probably be met with some skepticism. I don't think that's an exaggeration. Every person I know that got an SA in St. Louis went to high school in St. Louis not counting diversity based positions.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:29 am

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby bluedolphin » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:38 am

On the contrary to what was posted, my only tie to St. Louis was WashU and I received callbacks with 4 out of the 5 biggest firms in Saint Louis with barely top third grades. I'm a non URM candidate. I just stayed in Saint Louis my 1L Summer and pitched that.

I ended up withdrawing from all my callbacks to go to another city but Saint Louis seemed receptive. I remember my AT screener straight up asking me if I had any ties and me responding with, "I like forest park" or something dumb like that. Still got a callback.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:11 am

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:32 am

bluedolphin wrote:On the contrary to what was posted, my only tie to St. Louis was WashU and I received callbacks with 4 out of the 5 biggest firms in Saint Louis with barely top third grades. I'm a non URM candidate. I just stayed in Saint Louis my 1L Summer and pitched that.

I ended up withdrawing from all my callbacks to go to another city but Saint Louis seemed receptive. I remember my AT screener straight up asking me if I had any ties and me responding with, "I like forest park" or something dumb like that. Still got a callback.


Are you IP or something? I just get the feeling there's something important you're leaving out because a lot of people who are barely top 1/3 + non-URM can't even get 4 *screeners* at the 5 biggest STL firms, not to mention getting a callback after giving that answer to the ties question.

(Also CBs aren't offers. Plenty of callbacks go out to non-STL people that don't result in offers, although your story is still somewhat less common than most.)

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Ref » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:28 am

mornincounselor wrote:
(4) WashU is the best law school in Missouri. It also is ranked higher than any school in most of the neighboring states (i.e. Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Oklahoma, Arkansaw, Mississippi) Has anyone tried getting a job in those states? Is a WashU degree looked at favorably in those states? Are there just not a lot of high-paying legal jobs in any of those states? (seems far-fetched) It seems like tons of opportunities for a WashU grad who did decently. Or are all those markets super insular?


I am going to be working midlaw in one of the mentioned plains states. I had ties to my tertiary market (high school and undergrad), but I can say without a doubt my WashU degree is how I got the job I have. I work at a firm that usually only hires top 10% and law review from one of the regional schools in the area, whereas I literally was the top 1/3 bubble and non-LR when I first applied. So, I think both premises are true: my WUSTL degree gave me much more flexibility with grades and other LS-related credentials, but I'm positive I would not have gotten my job without ties to the market.

It's also true that, at least for the plains states mentioned above (and I imagine all states mentioned) there are very few high-paying legal jobs. Think about it; the biggest markets in Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas (proper) are Des Moines, Omaha, and Wichita, respectively (save maybe one firm that accidentally fell on the KS side of KC). Each of these cities has between 2-10 truly "midlaw" firms that typically hire between 1-2 SAs (generalizing). And in each of those markets, "high-paying" usually translates more to 80-100k rather than 100-125k like in KC or STL. If you gun for a market like that, realize you'll be competing with the regional schools where these midlaw firms are their version of biglaw that everyone is gunning for.

One final thought: With markets like the above, if you want to end up there long term, I would seriously suggest going for a "traditional" biglaw post first, if possible. One thing I've noticed with these smaller markets is that they salivate over laterals with biglaw credentials, and I think that might be your best bet to get over the lack of ties challenge. Of course, YMMV.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby mornincounselor » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:40 pm

Very informative everyone.

One last thing (for now)

C/O 2014 placed about 28% of grads into firms with more than 100 attorneys. About 11% of grads went to NY and 9% of grads went to DC with 30% staying in Missouri and 45% in the "other states'

Based on your experience, would you say the current classes place in a similar way? Also do you have any idea how the percentage of large firm hirers matches up to state placement? I'm assuming quite a few of the NY and DC jobs are BL with some small percentage of STL and CHI jobs making up the other 8-10%? Speaking of CHI, are these positions as tie-sensitive as some of the other surrounding states?

I completely get the point about the firms being scared of the expense of training new lawyers. But, if one has to start in NY or DC in order to lateral into one of these markets then WashU grads are in the same competitive rat race as all the other regional schools fighting for these same over saturated markets. I guess it negates what I perceived as a great advantage of the school.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby bluedolphin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:32 am

hoos89 wrote:
bluedolphin wrote:On the contrary to what was posted, my only tie to St. Louis was WashU and I received callbacks with 4 out of the 5 biggest firms in Saint Louis with barely top third grades. I'm a non URM candidate. I just stayed in Saint Louis my 1L Summer and pitched that.

I ended up withdrawing from all my callbacks to go to another city but Saint Louis seemed receptive. I remember my AT screener straight up asking me if I had any ties and me responding with, "I like forest park" or something dumb like that. Still got a callback.


Are you IP or something? I just get the feeling there's something important you're leaving out because a lot of people who are barely top 1/3 + non-URM can't even get 4 *screeners* at the 5 biggest STL firms, not to mention getting a callback after giving that answer to the ties question.

(Also CBs aren't offers. Plenty of callbacks go out to non-STL people that don't result in offers, although your story is still somewhat less common than most.)


I'm not IP but I got a lot of lunches with a lot of attorneys my second semester 1L. Didn't name drop in cover letters but I'm sure it helped.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby futago » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:13 pm

Sorry to derail the jobs discussion, but any advice on Rosen v. Pratzel for Ethics?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:30 pm

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby LET'S GET IT » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:58 pm

I have the following three books for sale. All are lightly used (I bought them new and very rarely mark or highlight in books). Price will be cheaper than what you would pay at the bookstore. Not sure about amazon or other online outlets. PM if interested.

Federal Rules of Evidence (the rules not the casebook)
Casebook for Employment Discrimination with Smith
Casebook for Mediation Theory/Practice

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby futago » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:55 pm

sublime wrote:
futago wrote:Sorry to derail the jobs discussion, but any advice on Rosen v. Pratzel for Ethics?



Rosen is more entertaining. Pretzel is dry but it is all MC and all MPRE, which helped when I took that.


Hmm. I'm signed up for Rosen next semester but I need to drop something. Thanks for the info.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:13 pm

Rosen was all MC too.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:15 pm

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RareExports » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:40 am

New 509 report shows 68 people on full tuition or full tuition+ scholarships. Was that post a while back about 40+ 1L's on full tuition or full tuition+ total flame, or are there just very few 2L and 3L's on full tuition scholarships?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:31 am

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RareExports » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:38 am

The 509 shows all three class years. It shows 753 students, with 61 (8.1%) on full-tuition scholarships and 7 (.9%) on full-tuition+ scholarships. This just doesn't seem right.

http://law.wustl.edu/admissions/documen ... rt2015.pdf

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby LET'S GET IT » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:19 pm

RareExports wrote:The 509 shows all three class years. It shows 753 students, with 61 (8.1%) on full-tuition scholarships and 7 (.9%) on full-tuition+ scholarships. This just doesn't seem right.

http://law.wustl.edu/admissions/documen ... rt2015.pdf


Keep in mind that almost all the 2L's and 3L's that got full rides aren't getting full tuition anymore because the scholarship doesn't increase when tuition does. My guess is that's where the discrepancy is coming from.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TetrisBlock » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:40 pm

LET'S GET IT wrote:
RareExports wrote:The 509 shows all three class years. It shows 753 students, with 61 (8.1%) on full-tuition scholarships and 7 (.9%) on full-tuition+ scholarships. This just doesn't seem right.

http://law.wustl.edu/admissions/documen ... rt2015.pdf


Keep in mind that almost all the 2L's and 3L's that got full rides aren't getting full tuition anymore because the scholarship doesn't increase when tuition does. My guess is that's where the discrepancy is coming from.


Full doesn't increase with tuition? It would make sense because the 75th percentile for scholarships is $48,345. If people were given full scholarships that didn't increase then that would explain the high 75th and the low full scholarship percent and put it at at least 25% (I think that's how percentiles work? My brain is on vacation.). But I was under the impression that if you got, say 150,000, that wouldn't increase, but if there is no number and it says full tuition for your time at WUSTL then it would go up with tuition.

Edit: Looking at the 509, only about 13% transferred. Still about 4% higher than the year before, so a large jump (and numerically large: 32 in 2015 vs 13 in 2014), but not as large as I thought with the way people talk about aiming to transfer. Is the transfer talk overblown since the vast majority won't be?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RareExports » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:58 pm

I know some (and I thought all) full-tuition scholarships were guaranteed for the full amount for all three years. That might be something new with the 1L class this year though.

As for the transfer data -- I think it's natural to test the transfer waters, and for many people it seems to make sense to transfer out. Everything about WUSTL on TLS is overblown though. It's not like there's some massive transfer problem.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby LET'S GET IT » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:27 pm

RareExports wrote:I know some (and I thought all) full-tuition scholarships were guaranteed for the full amount for all three years. That might be something new with the 1L class this year though.

As for the transfer data -- I think it's natural to test the transfer waters, and for many people it seems to make sense to transfer out. Everything about WUSTL on TLS is overblown though. It's not like there's some massive transfer problem.


Maybe it does now, but during my cycle a couple years back, only the dean's scholars had scholarships that increased with tuition. People that got full rides had a number attached to the offer that equated to 3 years tuition at whatever the cost was at that time ($146,xxx if I recall correctly).

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby sublime » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:02 pm

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