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Thanks for all the information on Wash U! Very informative!

Also, as a STL native, I can say that you guys have been spot on with all answers about St. Louis. I am currently a 1L in California, but am transferring back home to Wash U this upcoming semester!

I am very interested in getting a softball team together to play at forest park. If anyone is interested (or knows anyone who would be interested) please let me know! Mens or Co-ed (doesn't matter). I have several people already.

Total Litigator wrote:Call up the WUSTL administration. Tell them that you are interested in attending WUSTL because your SO is there, but you have an admittance to Berkeley and w/o more money it will make your decision VERY difficult.

While I do agree with this, I would also advise srilina to not do this unless you would actually go to WUSTL over Berkeley, even if they raised your scholarship. How much exactly would they have to raise it to make you choose WUSTL? Just get an idea of what that number is before you ask for more money. Because the reality is that you will not likely get a full ride from WUSTL this late in the game, though I suppose a lot of things are possible. That is all.

You Gotta Have Faith wrote:

Total Litigator wrote:Call up the WUSTL administration. Tell them that you are interested in attending WUSTL because your SO is there, but you have an admittance to Berkeley and w/o more money it will make your decision VERY difficult.

While I do agree with this, I would also advise srilina to not do this unless you would actually go to WUSTL over Berkeley, even if they raised your scholarship. How much exactly would they have to raise it to make you choose WUSTL? Just get an idea of what that number is before you ask for more money. Because the reality is that you will not likely get a full ride from WUSTL this late in the game, though I suppose a lot of things are possible. That is all.

I think sirlina is going to WUSTL over berkley with the scholarship they are offering now, so she definitely should do this.

i donno... i woudlnt choose wustl over berkeley.. especially if you want biglaw. Plus. on the east coast and west coast, wustl isnt well known. Wustl has problems even in the midwaste. There were lawyers in the Pittsburgh area asking me why wanted to go to WUSTL over other schools like ND.

once you miss the biglaw boat, it is very difficult to get back on it. Go to the school that gives you the best chance to catch that boat. There is a huge difference in placement between UCB and WUSTL.
UCB has a really good LRAP program. Also consider IBR too.

The only schools I would consider is USC/UCLA/Texas/Vandy with scholarship vs T14s with no scholarship.

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Can someone give me a general breakdown of what the weathers like in St. Louis, perhaps by the season...? I currently live in Portland, and despise the weather here, as it's so gloomy and rainy for so much of the year. I actually preferred living in South Dakota, because although the winters were harsh, the rest of the seasons were great. I've read about the weather online, but it's hard to get a realistic picture from that.

(apologies if this has been covered)

Ya, sure. There is no "set" weather. One day it will be 22 degrees--the next it will be 75. Dead serious.

But in general, the weather in the summer is very nice. It can get very hot and humid, but for the most part--it is great. However, the winters are extremely cold and long. My best advice: make friends with someone who has a house at the lake of the ozarks and you will fall in love with your summer weekends.

JenDarby wrote:Can someone give me a general breakdown of what the weathers like in St. Louis, perhaps by the season...? I currently live in Portland, and despise the weather here, as it's so gloomy and rainy for so much of the year. I actually preferred living in South Dakota, because although the winters were harsh, the rest of the seasons were great. I've read about the weather online, but it's hard to get a realistic picture from that.

(apologies if this has been covered)

I went to undergrad in St Louis, but also lived for quite some time in both Chicago and the east coast. So, I'll try to compare STL with these areas. I've noticed that St Louis winters, fall, and spring are generally similar to the mid-atlantic states. There is some +/- variation in temperature, but all and all these seasons are similar. St Louis definitely doesn't get as cold as Chicago does, and the winter is definitely much shorter than Chicago. STL will usually will have a 3 or 4 notably large snowfalls each winter; but, most of the precipitation you'll see in the winter is like a gross wintry mix of light snow/light rain that results in slush everywhere on the roads. Still, this doesn't happen everyday - unlike the constant precipitation you probably see Portland for 7 months out of the year. It's mostly just pretty gray and dreary in January and early February.
Summer in St Louis can be a bear... humid, sticky, and hot. If you choose not to work in STL over the summer, then you don't have to worry about it I suppose, or perhaps you are crazy like me and actually enjoy that sort of weather. It feels comforting in a weird way... like all that humidity just ensconces you. July and August are the worst for this, and most would admittedly say that it's disgusting if they haven't lived in an area like this.
The fall and spring are generally very temperate and nice... will stay in the 70s through October, and the high 50s/low 60s for most of Oct and Nov. The area around WUSTL's campus (especially forest park) is quite gorgeous in the fall and spring.. St Louis kind of hibernates from Christmas until March begins, so the city really blossoms (literally and figuratively) by mid- March.
Note that February, March, and November can be very odd months for weather. You might have a random day when it's gorgeous and in the 60s and people are out and about enjoying the sun, then seriously the very next day it is 35 degrees and a possibility for light snow. Although I didn't find this randomness to be rare on the east coast, STL definitely has a higher degree of randomness in some months.

Yeah, this was kind of long, but hope it helped.

JenDarby wrote:Can someone give me a general breakdown of what the weathers like in St. Louis, perhaps by the season...? I currently live in Portland, and despise the weather here, as it's so gloomy and rainy for so much of the year. I actually preferred living in South Dakota, because although the winters were harsh, the rest of the seasons were great. I've read about the weather online, but it's hard to get a realistic picture from that.

(apologies if this has been covered)

March-Mid-May: Varies greatly. Can be rainy and cold (it is in the 40s today and rainy) and it can be hot. Yesterday it was in the 70s, and we've already had a few days around 90. The week before the March ASW, it was upper-70s, but we got about 6 inches of snow that weekend. We had like a 40-50 degree drop in less than 48 hours, which is not uncommon.

Mid-May-Early September: Hot and humid. Probably 80s-90s just about every day and sticky.

September-November: It'll go from like the 70s and 60s in September, and then eventually drop off into the 40s-50s in October and November.

December-March: It'll be cold (10s-20s, with some occasional days as low as the single digits) and you'll see some good snowfall a few times throughout the winter. This last winter was especially cold and snowy for St. Louis.

thexfactor wrote:Go to the school that gives you the best chance to catch that boat. There is a huge difference in placement between UCB and WUSTL.

I don't think srlina is making the right decision and UCB is obviously a much better school, but UCB is so expensive that I don't think I could ever stomach going there at sticker. Yeah, you've got a pretty good shot at biglaw (what, maybe like 50-60%?) but even with biglaw, that type of debt will be incredibly difficult to pay off. What is OOS for UCB, like 70k+ total COA? That's 210k for the loans alone, then factor in the interest and you'll probably be repaying 250-300k+ of debt. That is just not worth it, even if you can land 4-5 years in biglaw. So I don't think UCB or WUSTL are good options in this situation.

romothesavior wrote:

thexfactor wrote:Go to the school that gives you the best chance to catch that boat. There is a huge difference in placement between UCB and WUSTL.

I don't think srlina is making the right decision and UCB is obviously a much better school, but UCB is so expensive that I don't think I could ever stomach going there at sticker. Yeah, you've got a pretty good shot at biglaw (what, maybe like 50-60%?) but even with biglaw, that type of debt will be incredibly difficult to pay off. What is OOS for UCB, like 70k+ total COA? That's 210k for the loans alone, then factor in the interest and you'll probably be repaying 250-300k+ of debt. That is just not worth it, even if you can land 4-5 years in biglaw. So I don't think UCB or WUSTL are good options in this situation.

Yeah, it's definitely not a decision I expected to have to make and I'm not happy about it (currently looking into deferring but I know UCB is pretty resistant to such things - and I doubt a "but my SO is somewhere else!" sob story will fly). Regardless, I definitely feel the same way about the price tag (they're giving me 77k in loans right now and my LSAT wasn't particularly impressive, I'm one of their "holistic" acceptances), and SF COL is awful. Unless UCB comes to me with a ton of money I think I'll choose WUSTL and rethink where I want to work (I like CA, but I think I could be happy in Chicago, Texas, whathaveyou as well).

If I am looking to work in IP/Patent law fields is there any advantage to attending Wash U over Illinois? Advantages being things like increased OCI presence or better classes/professors/clinics or even just reputation.

How does WUSTL place in the Kansas City law market? If I wanted to move to KC after law school, would WUSTL be a good choice for me?

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Rock Chalk wrote:

Bartlebee06 wrote:How does WUSTL place in the Kansas City law market? If I wanted to move to KC after law school, would WUSTL be a good choice for me?

Rock Chalk wrote:

PSUFB1114 wrote:How about WUSTL job prospects in Kansas City? (summer internships, post grad offers, salary data, etc.) Any insight will be greatly appreciated

Defining the KC market salary is a little weird. Even among the largest firms it varies, but most are between 100k and 110k, with a few around 90k and 115k for smaller branches of firms headquartered elsewhere. If you're familiar with KC you'll know that 100k there is comparable to the biglaw salaries in major markets (and will probably go even further).

WUSTL is definitely well-respected in KC, and you'd have a leg-up on the local (UMKC, KU, Mizzou) students. In fact, I heard several attorneys in KC refer to WUSTL as the "Harvard of the midwest." You will, however, probably have to have ties or at least a good, honest explanation of why you want KC for them to believe you'll stick around and they're not making a bad investment. Are you from KC? If so, WUSTL would be a great choice for KC: You're generally not competing with T14 students for the jobs, and WUSTL has several grads in KC firms.

Any more specific questions?

Yeah, I am originally from KC and all of my family is still in the area. I am really hoping for Vandy, but would take WUSTL if the offer was better and now that I know I could find work back home It sounds even better. Thanks for reposting that for me.

MyManKanye wrote:If I am looking to work in IP/Patent law fields is there any advantage to attending Wash U over Illinois? Advantages being things like increased OCI presence or better classes/professors/clinics or even just reputation.

WUSTL has a solid IP program. IP clinic, lots of courses, fair number of IP-specific faculty. Larger size usually = more course variety, so I'd imagine WUSTL has more offerings in the area than UIUC (though that doesn't really matter in the long run). Definitely more IP offerings at WUSTL than Vandy, for instance. WUSTL also disperses more than UIUC, which could end up being fairly important if you're absolutely set on working in IP, especially since Chicago is atrocious right now - last year's SA numbers at the Chicago IP boutiques were just depressing. You may end up having to be geographically flexible because of variables like lack of demand for IP in your desired market, varying demand for your particular tech background, or even varying demand between markets for certain tech backgrounds. E.g., some markets may have more demand for bio than engineering because of the pharma/agribusinesses in that market, whereas EE/CS is in high demand in Cali for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't pay a lot more for WashU over UIUC for those reasons, but personally I'd probably take WashU over Illinois if it was fairly close.

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stratocophic wrote:

MyManKanye wrote:If I am looking to work in IP/Patent law fields is there any advantage to attending Wash U over Illinois? Advantages being things like increased OCI presence or better classes/professors/clinics or even just reputation.

WUSTL has a solid IP program. IP clinic, lots of courses, fair number of IP-specific faculty. Larger size usually = more course variety, so I'd imagine WUSTL has more offerings in the area than UIUC (though that doesn't really matter in the long run). Definitely more IP offerings at WUSTL than Vandy, for instance. WUSTL also disperses more than UIUC, which could end up being fairly important if you're absolutely set on working in IP, especially since Chicago is atrocious right now - last year's SA numbers at the Chicago IP boutiques were just depressing. You may end up having to be geographically flexible because of variables like lack of demand for IP in your desired market, varying demand for your particular tech background, or even varying demand between markets for certain tech backgrounds. E.g., some markets may have more demand for bio than engineering because of the pharma/agribusinesses in that market, whereas EE/CS is in high demand in Cali for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't pay a lot more for WashU over UIUC for those reasons, but personally I'd probably take WashU over Illinois if it was fairly close.

I've actually heard UIUC's IP program is especially strong thanks to the UG's fantastic Engineering school.

Hannibal wrote:

stratocophic wrote:

MyManKanye wrote:If I am looking to work in IP/Patent law fields is there any advantage to attending Wash U over Illinois? Advantages being things like increased OCI presence or better classes/professors/clinics or even just reputation.

WUSTL has a solid IP program. IP clinic, lots of courses, fair number of IP-specific faculty. Larger size usually = more course variety, so I'd imagine WUSTL has more offerings in the area than UIUC (though that doesn't really matter in the long run). Definitely more IP offerings at WUSTL than Vandy, for instance. WUSTL also disperses more than UIUC, which could end up being fairly important if you're absolutely set on working in IP, especially since Chicago is atrocious right now - last year's SA numbers at the Chicago IP boutiques were just depressing. You may end up having to be geographically flexible because of variables like lack of demand for IP in your desired market, varying demand for your particular tech background, or even varying demand between markets for certain tech backgrounds. E.g., some markets may have more demand for bio than engineering because of the pharma/agribusinesses in that market, whereas EE/CS is in high demand in Cali for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't pay a lot more for WashU over UIUC for those reasons, but personally I'd probably take WashU over Illinois if it was fairly close.

I've actually heard UIUC's IP program is especially strong thanks to the UG's fantastic Engineering school.

Makes sense. I do think the strength of the patent program is basically meaningless for hiring purposes, though... don't think I really got that across in my rambling. Pretty sure it's basically which school you attend, where you are in the class, and what your UG grades were for getting IP interviews, so I wouldn't let any school talk you into attending because of a preftigious clinic or some interdisciplinary BS like Emory's TI:GER program.

That said, Chicago is still running at about 35-40% of pre-ITE. Less than 400 total Biglaw SAs in the city for this summer IIRC, and that's before you even consider that IP probably isn't going to represent 10% of that number. Cost, job prospects, and fit are all significantly more important than the IP program, but I think where the school places should be a consideration as well given the fact that a lot of markets (St. Louis, Atlanta, Chicago, probably a lot of the other secondaries as well) are supposedly still struggling, which the SA numbers generally confirm.

stratocophic wrote:a lot of markets (St. Louis, Atlanta, Chicago, probably a lot of the other secondaries as well) are supposedly still struggling, which the SA numbers generally confirm.

This year was markedly better than the year before, and I have heard straight from the horses' mouths (aka from hiring people) that they expect as good or better SA classes this fall, in addition to a number of reputable reports of megafirms like Sidley Austin and K&E being back to pre-ITE hiring.

Not sure how much better things will be, but I expect things across the board and across schools to be noticeably better this year than last, and far, far better this year than 2-3 years ago (and better than the most recent NLJ data we have). This probably shouldn't change anyone's decision as far as where to go, but I'm just throwing it out there because it was brought up.

romothesavior wrote:

stratocophic wrote:a lot of markets (St. Louis, Atlanta, Chicago, probably a lot of the other secondaries as well) are supposedly still struggling, which the SA numbers generally confirm.

This year was markedly better than the year before, and I have heard straight from the horses' mouths (aka from hiring people) that they expect as good or better SA classes this fall, in addition to a number of reputable reports of megafirms like Sidley Austin and K&E being back to pre-ITE hiring.

Not sure how much better things will be, but I expect things across the board and across schools to be noticeably better this year than last, and far, far better this year than 2-3 years ago (and better than the most recent NLJ data we have). This probably shouldn't change anyone's decision as far as where to go, but I'm just throwing it out there because it was brought up.

I was thinking about that, and do you think the reason they are able to go back to pre-ITE hiring so soon is because there was firm consolidation during the recession? Or maybe they're trying to get as much talent as they can and are willing to take losses for it? It seems too soon for the legal market to be back to pre-ITE demand.

romothesavior wrote:

stratocophic wrote:a lot of markets (St. Louis, Atlanta, Chicago, probably a lot of the other secondaries as well) are supposedly still struggling, which the SA numbers generally confirm.

This year was markedly better than the year before, and I have heard straight from the horses' mouths (aka from hiring people) that they expect as good or better SA classes this fall, in addition to a number of reputable reports of megafirms like Sidley Austin and K&E being back to pre-ITE hiring.

Not sure how much better things will be, but I expect things across the board and across schools to be noticeably better this year than last, and far, far better this year than 2-3 years ago (and better than the most recent NLJ data we have). This probably shouldn't change anyone's decision as far as where to go, but I'm just throwing it out there because it was brought up.

Here's hoping. From what I've seen it'll mostly be V20s that have the huge classes this summer, but not even all of them will be expanding back to normal levels. I've heard a few of the Chicago mainstays are iffy right now (maybe Jenner and/or Winston?) and not expanding class sizes much this summer as a result. K&E's NALP projection looks good, hopefully the rest will follow suit.

Hannibal wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

stratocophic wrote:a lot of markets (St. Louis, Atlanta, Chicago, probably a lot of the other secondaries as well) are supposedly still struggling, which the SA numbers generally confirm.

This year was markedly better than the year before, and I have heard straight from the horses' mouths (aka from hiring people) that they expect as good or better SA classes this fall, in addition to a number of reputable reports of megafirms like Sidley Austin and K&E being back to pre-ITE hiring.

Not sure how much better things will be, but I expect things across the board and across schools to be noticeably better this year than last, and far, far better this year than 2-3 years ago (and better than the most recent NLJ data we have). This probably shouldn't change anyone's decision as far as where to go, but I'm just throwing it out there because it was brought up.

I was thinking about that, and do you think the reason they are able to go back to pre-ITE hiring so soon is because there was firm consolidation during the recession? Or maybe they're trying to get as much talent as they can and are willing to take losses for it? It seems too soon for the legal market to be back to pre-ITE demand.

Supposedly some places don't have enough bodies to throw onto the work right now and are kind of stretched thin, hence the high demand for laterals. They're hiring for 2 years out, so firms are probably just projecting that they're going to have even more work and have to swell the ranks. Take this with a grain of salt, abovethelaw and xoxo aren't the best sources.

Hannibal wrote:I was thinking about that, and do you think the reason they are able to go back to pre-ITE hiring so soon is because there was firm consolidation during the recession? Or maybe they're trying to get as much talent as they can and are willing to take losses for it? It seems too soon for the legal market to be back to pre-ITE demand.

The market as a whole is not back to pre-ITE demand. At the very best, I could see law school getting back to the pre-pre-ITE hiring, aka pre-boom (early 2000s before things got ridiculous with SA class sizes). And I don't see that happening anytime soon, certainly not this year. A few firms are looking to revamp hiring, but I don't think we'll see big jumps across the board. I think we'll see a few firms at the top doing a lot more hiring, and then most other firms (especially secondary market firms) will stay the same or increase a little bit. But hey, this is still reassuring compared to recent OCIs, especially hearing it from people involved in hiring and not just speculative students on TLS.

Firms have been busy as hell, especially at the top, and a lot of firms have seen huge PPP numbers in recent years. So it was really just a matter of time before firms started hiring again, but again, I don't think they'll ever get to crazy-high SA classes again. It was just a crazy hiring model (but then again, they do say law firms are poorly managed, so who knows if they'll learn from that lesson). This is speculation here, but I think the legal market is improving, I just don't think it is exploding or improving vastly or quickly. All signs seem to be pointing to things being better for my class though. A very well-informed individual that I know told me that a lot of firms have a lack of rookie SAs and incoming SAs, and rather than hire 3Ls who they have no experience with, they are looking to hire a decent number of 2Ls at OCI this fall. Now, what he told me could be total crap, but it came from a pretty trustworthy source and it seems to be consistent with the things I'm hearing elsewhere. I have had two biglaw hiring folks tell me they expect OCI to be better this fall. Coupled with the reports I've been hearing/reading about some of the megafirms' hiring, I am cautiously optimistic.

stratocophic wrote:Here's hoping. From what I've seen it'll mostly be V20s that have the huge classes this summer, but not even all of them will be expanding back to normal levels. I've heard a few of the Chicago mainstays are iffy right now (maybe Jenner and/or Winston?) and not expanding class sizes much this summer as a result. K&E's NALP projection looks good, hopefully the rest will follow suit.

Yeah, it likely won't be a big increase across the board, but if a handful of the really big firms revamp considerably, and most other firms take an extra couple of SAs, the effects would be pretty substantial. At the very least, the competition in the secondary markets like STL would go down a little (at least that's the hope). Will any of this happen? I don't know, and no one does. But the reports I am hearing are almost all positive or neutral, so that's giving me a little reason for hope.

Of course, once my crim law final bends my GPA over the table and mercilessly destroys it, all of this will be moot for me. Hopefully there will be some East STL DUI defense firms at OCI.

romothesavior wrote:

stratocophic wrote:Here's hoping. From what I've seen it'll mostly be V20s that have the huge classes this summer, but not even all of them will be expanding back to normal levels. I've heard a few of the Chicago mainstays are iffy right now (maybe Jenner and/or Winston?) and not expanding class sizes much this summer as a result. K&E's NALP projection looks good, hopefully the rest will follow suit.

Yeah, it likely won't be a big increase across the board, but if a handful of the really big firms revamp considerably, and most other firms take an extra couple of SAs, the effects would be pretty substantial. At the very least, the competition in the secondary markets like STL would go down a little (at least that's the hope). Will any of this happen? I don't know, and no one does. But the reports I am hearing are almost all positive or neutral, so that's giving me a little reason for hope.

Of course, once my crim law final bends my GPA over the table and mercilessly destroys it, all of this will be moot for me. Hopefully there will be some East STL DUI defense firms at OCI.

Amen. Got a baaaaaad feeling about what this semester is going to do to my GPA... might need rapid Biglaw expansion when all is said and done