WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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yossarian
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:33 am

What is hiring like out of WUSTL for secondary Midwestern markets outside of STL? WUSTL seems kind of like a catch22 in that STL doesn't like WUSTL grads because they think they'll bolt, but it doesn't seem to have the national clout to get someone hired without really good connections in other markets... The employment numbers don't indicate it's a hiring no man's land, but I'm trying to wrap my head around what the real possibilities out of WUSTL are.

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John Everyman
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby John Everyman » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:46 am

fl0w wrote:
recliner wrote:What counts as St. Louis ties for purposes of hiriing? Does attending WUSTL also as an undergrad help?


as someone who attended wustl as undergrad, worked, then came back for law school...

Unequivocally no. Even though I did, in fact, come back to St. Louis nobody believed I would stay. But hey, they were right.


So it really is that difficult, that's a shame. As someone with no direct ties to St. Louis I think it might be a good idea to reevaluate the employment data.

When I look at the employment data I see 23 grads hired in 101-250 firms and 20 grads going into 251-500 firms. Overall, this is a relatively high placement in mid-sized firms relative to a school like Notre Dame, which hits the 501+ firms pretty well but precipitously drops off from that point. How many of these midlaw looking positions would you guys say are actually just biglaw in St. Louis? Would it be better for someone like me to evaluate employment prospects by assuming those positions would not exist for your average, or even top 1/3rd out-of-stater?

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alpwilliams
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby alpwilliams » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 pm

Normally how deep do they go into the waitlist? Any other advice on getting off besides LOCI?

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:05 pm

Mid law is not firms of 100 or more. I believe firms of 101 or greater are considered large firms.

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John Everyman
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby John Everyman » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:14 pm

goldeneye wrote:Mid law is not firms of 100 or more. I believe firms of 101 or greater are considered large firms.


I know the general standards, and it is all pretty subjective. It does not matter for my question though. All I am trying to determine is how much to adjust my predictions of possible employment outcomes due to the fact that I do not have ties to St. Louis and may be locked out of that market?

I imagine many of those 101-500 firm jobs are St. Louis biglaw, hence the seemingly inflated number of grads in those types of firms (this particular speculation doesn't matter to my question, St. Louis biglaw could be mostly 501+ firms, it would just explain the large number).

Ref
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Ref » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:22 pm

yossarian71 wrote:What is hiring like out of WUSTL for secondary Midwestern markets outside of STL? WUSTL seems kind of like a catch22 in that STL doesn't like WUSTL grads because they think they'll bolt, but it doesn't seem to have the national clout to get someone hired without really good connections in other markets... The employment numbers don't indicate it's a hiring no man's land, but I'm trying to wrap my head around what the real possibilities out of WUSTL are.


With this, I think the key is ties. Secondary midwestern markets want candidates from top-flight schools like WUSTL, but they also know there's a certain risk in those investments. The more you can convince these employers you have reason to stay in X market, the better.

I think, depending on the market, being from WUSTL does carry a bit of clout. Attorneys in the area seem to know and respond well to the WUSTL law brand, in my (limited) experience.

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yossarian
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:54 pm

Ref wrote:
yossarian71 wrote:What is hiring like out of WUSTL for secondary Midwestern markets outside of STL? WUSTL seems kind of like a catch22 in that STL doesn't like WUSTL grads because they think they'll bolt, but it doesn't seem to have the national clout to get someone hired without really good connections in other markets... The employment numbers don't indicate it's a hiring no man's land, but I'm trying to wrap my head around what the real possibilities out of WUSTL are.


With this, I think the key is ties. Secondary midwestern markets want candidates from top-flight schools like WUSTL, but they also know there's a certain risk in those investments. The more you can convince these employers you have reason to stay in X market, the better.

I think, depending on the market, being from WUSTL does carry a bit of clout. Attorneys in the area seem to know and respond well to the WUSTL law brand, in my (limited) experience.


This makes sense but...

In Indy it seems a top third WUSTL student w/ ties would only be at a disadvantaged compared to a top 10% IUB student. Or against a UK student in Louisville or a Moritz student in Cinci. They would be even except likely they missed out on having the firm at OCI while the local schools had the firm at OCI.

I identify two sort-of-advantages of a school like WUSTL over the hyper-regional school.
1) Slightly more competitive in more markets. Whereas the IUB grad can really only look to Indy, a WUSTL student could get some looks across the Midwest, in major markets, and in their local market.
2) One has to be top third rather than top 10% to have a shot at a firm job.

These advantages are important, absolutely, but are there other things I'm missing?

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:10 pm

sublime wrote:How much do the waitlists move, especially for pretrial?

And does anybody know anything about Kuehn's Legal Professionalism?


There is usually some decent movement, but probably not that much for pre-trial. Though at least one position will open up the first week of classes.

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:23 pm

take your WUSTL degree to a desirable market with good good grades and shit to back it up and they won't have any trouble believing that you want to stay.

when interviewing in CA for jobs and i got the "why CA" question my answer was literally "uhh.. because it's amazing here." The response was "yeah, you're right, everyone wants to be here."

Bad markets aren't convinced you'll stay.
Good markets know you want to, but they have their pick of candidates.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby recliner » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:29 pm

Regarding ties, how do prospective employers even know what ties a student has, especially for K-JD? The application form and resume will include the undergrad school name, and the permanent address could be listed as your law school address. Do they ask for where you graduated from high school? Or some other question that would indicate where you grew up or where your parents live? On the application form, or in the interview? I wonder about the legalities of asking questions about family members. I know, for example, that is illegal for prospective employers to ask if someone is married or has kids.

Is there anything that is considered to be local ties, other than having grown up in that city or region? Does having extended family live there help at all, such as grandparents, aunts/uncles?

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:50 pm

recliner wrote:Regarding ties, how do prospective employers even know what ties a student has, especially for K-JD? The application form and resume will include the undergrad school name, and the permanent address could be listed as your law school address. Do they ask for where you graduated from high school? Or some other question that would indicate where you grew up or where your parents live? On the application form, or in the interview? I wonder about the legalities of asking questions about family members. I know, for example, that is illegal for prospective employers to ask if someone is married or has kids.

Is there anything that is considered to be local ties, other than having grown up in that city or region? Does having extended family live there help at all, such as grandparents, aunts/uncles?


In St. Louis "where did you go to high school" is actually THE question that locals ask each other. I never understood it, but it's how they know what kind of person you are or something. And yes, if you went to HS in StL, they will ask you this in the screener if they also grew up in StL.

You can wonder about the legality all you want, but they ask it. In general if your resume doesn't scream "I'm leaving StL" then they will ask a couple questions about why you love StL and will stay forever in the screener. And trust me, they can tell if you BS them. It's not their first rodeo.

I lived in St. Louis for 4 years, then chicago for 5, then back to StL for another three. They still wouldn't believe that I would stay. You can tell them whatever you like to see if they buy it. I'm not saying don't try. You just likely need "significant" ties. Maybe extended family is enough, maybe it's not.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:43 pm

If you want to convince them you're staying, buy a house.

I'm not joking.

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JustHawkin
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JustHawkin » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:49 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:If you want to convince them you're staying, buy a house.

I'm not joking.

What if we need the job in order to buy the house!?!

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby theycallmefoes » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:31 pm

fl0w wrote:
recliner wrote:Regarding ties, how do prospective employers even know what ties a student has, especially for K-JD? The application form and resume will include the undergrad school name, and the permanent address could be listed as your law school address. Do they ask for where you graduated from high school? Or some other question that would indicate where you grew up or where your parents live? On the application form, or in the interview? I wonder about the legalities of asking questions about family members. I know, for example, that is illegal for prospective employers to ask if someone is married or has kids.

Is there anything that is considered to be local ties, other than having grown up in that city or region? Does having extended family live there help at all, such as grandparents, aunts/uncles?


In St. Louis "where did you go to high school" is actually THE question that locals ask each other. I never understood it, but it's how they know what kind of person you are or something.
This is actually a thing. You'll find plenty on it if you google it. This one's pretty amusing, especially the flow chart: http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2012-02- ... hool/full/

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yossarian
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby yossarian » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:36 pm

The fact they interchange "Hoosier" with "hillbilly" is nearly enough for me to withdraw.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby spot_m » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:58 pm

Does any grad or current student have any experience or information about the level of difficulty in getting a big law job in Los Angeles with a degree from WUSTL? How helpful career services resources are for the Los Angeles market? Or the Becker Project, for that matter?

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:07 pm

spot_m wrote:Does any grad or current student have any experience or information about the level of difficulty in getting a big law job in Los Angeles with a degree from WUSTL? How helpful career services resources are for the Los Angeles market? Or the Becker Project, for that matter?


i could speak to SF but not LA. pm if you like.
otherwise you can reach out to career services to get a list of alumni in the area, then get in touch with them. There are plenty that are willing to talk to students.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby spot_m » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:19 pm

SF experience would also be appreciated! Anything within the CA market might hold some similarities. Thank you!

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:55 pm

spot_m wrote:SF experience would also be appreciated! Anything within the CA market might hold some similarities. Thank you!

sure, just private message me w/ a question

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:57 pm

recliner wrote: I wonder about the legalities of asking questions about family members. I know, for example, that is illegal for prospective employers to ask if someone is married or has kids.

I'm about 95% sure it's not illegal to ask about if you are married or have children. At least not in Missouri. Those aren't protected statuses. You just have to ask that to everybody if you do. It would only be illegal if you only asked women that and not men or something.

Either way, everybody I know in the top 10% who wanted to work in St. Louis, got the jobs they wanted in St. Louis.

The better your grades, the less ties matter. The worse your grades, the more intangibles, such as ties, matter. No matter where you go that is going to be the case.

doriori
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby doriori » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:30 am

Question to JD/LLM Tax Law Student at WUSTL.
How would you rate this joint degree at WUSTL? What are the job prospects like? Especially for international?

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:21 pm

Birdnals wrote:
recliner wrote: I wonder about the legalities of asking questions about family members. I know, for example, that is illegal for prospective employers to ask if someone is married or has kids.

I'm about 95% sure it's not illegal to ask about if you are married or have children. At least not in Missouri. Those aren't protected statuses. You just have to ask that to everybody if you do. It would only be illegal if you only asked women that and not men or something.


It definitely is if you only ask women, and even if you ask everyone, it's still really risky b/c it can easily be seen as evidence of discriminatory intent per EEOC. No major corporation will ask these questions, and I personally never ran into any such questions during my legal interviews. Most of the time the interviewee will bring it up if it establishes ties, but otherwise it shouldn't come up at all. If it does, CSO should be informed.

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:02 am

I'm just saying it is not illegal to ask anything as long as it isn't discriminatory to a protected class, either on it's face or if asking it would result in desperate impact upon a protected class. Not being from St. Louis is not a protected class (nor is being married and/or having kids).

If an employer wanted to, it could hire only single people with black hair who had a BMI of 20 and below, and could hold their breath under water for 2+ minutes. As long as it didn't discriminate based on race/religion/gender/nationality (and maybe age/class? idk about those) it can hire/ask questions about just about anything it wants.

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:01 am

Birdnals wrote:I'm just saying it is not illegal to ask anything as long as it isn't discriminatory to a protected class, either on it's face or if asking it would result in desperate impact upon a protected class. Not being from St. Louis is not a protected class (nor is being married and/or having kids).

If an employer wanted to, it could hire only single people with black hair who had a BMI of 20 and below, and could hold their breath under water for 2+ minutes. As long as it didn't discriminate based on race/religion/gender/nationality (and maybe age/class? idk about those) it can hire/ask questions about just about anything it wants.


only law school students could take this discussion where we have --- they don't even have to have the intent to discriminate.

point is that it's going to be hard to convince employers you want to be in St. Louis if nothing on your resume indicates. It's an uphill battle for sure if you can't answer the "where did you go to high school" but it is not impossible.

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:42 pm

goldeneye wrote:only law school students could take this discussion where we have.


THANK you for saying that. I was eye rolling so hard. :roll:




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