WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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DoveBodyWash
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:50 pm

mountaintime wrote:
JCougar wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Do wustl students without any previous ties have a chance at STL biglaw?


Considering the outcomes of my class, the answer seems to be a resounding "No." I mean, I think I know one or two people from Kansas that got STL biglaw, but everyone else was from STL.


It seems to go: people from STL > people from elsewhere in the midwest (the closer to STL the better, but Chicago appears to almost be a negative) > people from other regions.

I can only think of one person who got STL biglaw from co2013 who had no meaningful ties to STL or the midwest.

The deeper question you should be asking yourself is: If I don't have ties to St. Louis or the Midwest, why do I even want to stay in St. Louis?

So before you consider your chances of getting STL BigLaw, you really should (for your own sake) unpack why you want to stay here in the first place. ESPECIALLY if that's a major reason why you're coming to WUSTL. St. Louis is an insular market. It's tough to enter, and perhaps more importantly, it's difficult to exit. If you want to do corporate/transactional work, you're not going to be the same kind of work in STL BigLaw that you'd be doing in NYC or Chicago. And the brand of the firms here don't carry especially well in the major markets (minus Husch, Dentons, and BryanCave). If you have an opportunity to accept an offer with a firm here, you need to be SURE that you're willing to stay.

I pondered the idea of staying STL for a few reasons: low-living costs, tight-knit community, relaxed billable requirements (in comparison to the primary markets). But at the end of the day, none of those things are enough for me to know for sure that I want to stay here forever. IMHO i don't think outsiders really know enough about the area to make that decision. Like I've been in STL for a little less than a year. That's not long enough for me to bet my career on the STL horse.

Spikedude wrote:It's definitely possible to get a 1L SA in STL biglaw without any STL ties. It's difficult but I know of two people that accomplished it. 1 is from TX, the other is from FL. Both are minorities though.

If you don't do diversity OCI or aren't eligible, it's virtually impossible to get 1L SA without ties. I voluntarily opted out of diversity OCI and only did regular OCI and got passed up by firms for classmates with lower credentials, but who had ties. Which makes sense and i'm not even mad about it. Because why would a firm spend that kind of money on someone who's gonna leave? The pool for normal summer associates and diversity SA's are different in terms of the available slots. Diversity hires are classified as Diversity Clerks or diversity SA's, which gives a firm something they can point to when making a pitch to minority clients and such. So hiring diversity 1Ls without ties still adds value even if they end up leaving.

There are kids in the top 10% WITH STL ties who didn't get a 1L SA here. And virtually all of my peers who did regular OCI and were top 10% or higher and didn't have ties here struck out. Out of the 3 firms i had callbacks with, two of them actually called me to tell me that i didn't get the position because i "lacked connections to the city." And it was also something they were very upfront about during my callbacks.
Last edited by DoveBodyWash on Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby littlegiant » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:52 pm

JCougar wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Do wustl students without any previous ties have a chance at STL biglaw?


Considering the outcomes of my class, the answer seems to be a resounding "No." I mean, I think I know one or two people from Kansas that got STL biglaw, but everyone else was from STL.


So out of state individuals, with no intention on StL but firm in the Midwest, should take the employment statistics with a grain of salt?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:55 pm

littlegiant wrote:
JCougar wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Do wustl students without any previous ties have a chance at STL biglaw?


Considering the outcomes of my class, the answer seems to be a resounding "No." I mean, I think I know one or two people from Kansas that got STL biglaw, but everyone else was from STL.


So out of state individuals, with no intention on StL but firm in the Midwest, should take the employment statistics with a grain of salt?

I would say to assume that STL is off the table for you. Don't come to WashU because you think it'll give you a chance at breaking into STL if you don't have ties. It's too much of a gamble.

You have to realize that the SA classes here are fucking TINY. What is the average like 4-7? And there arguably only 7 major firms here that are going to give you BigLaw training and salary (Husch, BC, TC, Dentons, Greensfelder, LewisRice, Polsinelli) Ultimately, you could have all the right things, but if they don't space for you then they don't have space for you. Think of all your competitors not only from WUSTL, but from the local Missouri schools and the St. Louis expats trying to return home from other major schools.

The problem isn't necessarily that WUSTL doesn't place well in St. Louis. It's not like SLU has reliable placement for these firms either. The deeper problem is that this is a tiny market that doesn't have a lot of spaces for schools to place people into. Its stability is a pro, but the flip side of that stability is that the market doesn't really grow either.
Last edited by DoveBodyWash on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

littlegiant
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby littlegiant » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:08 pm

cusenation wrote:
littlegiant wrote:
JCougar wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:Do wustl students without any previous ties have a chance at STL biglaw?


Considering the outcomes of my class, the answer seems to be a resounding "No." I mean, I think I know one or two people from Kansas that got STL biglaw, but everyone else was from STL.


So out of state individuals, with no intention on StL but firm in the Midwest, should take the employment statistics with a grain of salt?

I would say to assume that STL is off the table for you. Don't come to WashU because you think it'll give you a chance at breaking into STL if you don't have ties. It's too much of a gamble.

You have to realize that the SA classes here are fucking TINY. What is the average like 4-7? And there arguably only 7 major firms here that are going to give you "BigLaw" training and salary (Husch, BC, TC, Dentons, Greensfelder, LewisRice, Polsinelli) Ultimately, you could have all the right things, but if they don't space for you then they don't have space for you. Think of all your competitors not only from WUSTL, but from the local Missouri schools and the St. Louis expats trying to return home from other major schools.

The problem isn't necessarily that WUSTL doesn't place well in St. Louis. It's not like SLU has reliable placement for these firms either. The deeper problem is that this is a tiny market that doesn't have a lot of spaces for schools to place people into. Its stability is a pro, but the flip side of that stability is that the market doesn't really grow either.


Makes sense. Thanks for your response, and a belated thanks for your pm. mea culpa

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:16 pm

So I know that diversity gives you a leg up in 1L SA hiring, but does it help at all with 2L SA hiring?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:18 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:So I know that diversity gives you a leg up in 1L SA hiring, but does it help at all with 2L SA hiring?

It depends on the firm. Most firms don't hire 1L SA's at all, so they'll usually have a 2L diversity program. Or some firms will just lump everyone in the same pile and have diversity be one of the factors they consider.

Also diversity considerations are different with law firms from law schools. Basically anyone who's not a straight white male can be considered diverse, depending on the firm. It's a much more holistic consideration. One of the reasons I didn't even consider diversity OCI until the last minute was because i just assumed firm diversity would mirror URM status in the law school context, so I figured I wasn't eligible as an Asian male.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:40 pm

cusenation wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:So I know that diversity gives you a leg up in 1L SA hiring, but does it help at all with 2L SA hiring?

It depends on the firm. Most firms don't hire 1L SA's at all, so they'll usually have a 2L diversity program. Or some firms will just lump everyone in the same pile and have diversity be one of the factors they consider.

Also diversity considerations are different with law firms from law schools. Basically anyone who's not a straight white male can be considered diverse, depending on the firm. It's a much more holistic consideration. One of the reasons I didn't even consider diversity OCI until the last minute was because i just assumed firm diversity would mirror URM status in the law school context, so I figured I wasn't eligible as an Asian male.

Yeah I mean I'm asking all of this as an LGBT white male, so I'm basically trying to see how much this will help me.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:42 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
cusenation wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:So I know that diversity gives you a leg up in 1L SA hiring, but does it help at all with 2L SA hiring?

It depends on the firm. Most firms don't hire 1L SA's at all, so they'll usually have a 2L diversity program. Or some firms will just lump everyone in the same pile and have diversity be one of the factors they consider.

Also diversity considerations are different with law firms from law schools. Basically anyone who's not a straight white male can be considered diverse, depending on the firm. It's a much more holistic consideration. One of the reasons I didn't even consider diversity OCI until the last minute was because i just assumed firm diversity would mirror URM status in the law school context, so I figured I wasn't eligible as an Asian male.

Yeah I mean I'm asking all of this as an LGBT white male, so I'm basically trying to see how much this will help me.

It will help, but there were plenty of qualified candidates at Diversity OCI that got nothing. So it's still a gamble lol. Whether the boost is enough to be a factor to your decision to come here isn't something I can calculate...but I would recommend erring on the side of caution and just assuming that it's not enough to influence your decision

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:02 pm

Birdnals wrote:The reason for the dearth of 1L STL SA's going to non-St. Louis natives is only because there are so very few of those and the vast majority go to diversity hiring programs. I don't think it really effects chances much more than 2L SA's, it is just such a small sample it may appear that way.


I know of 4 off the top of my head from my class that had little-to-no St. Louis ties and not really even midwest ties that got 2L SA offers in St. Louis. I am sure there are a few more I just don't know about too. I think there is a lot of selection bias involved in it, as lots of the top people with the grades to overcome the ties issue tend to go to different/bigger markets.


I've heard an anecdote that one major STL firm told a candidate from WUSTL during 1L OCI that they liked everything about him but his lack of ties, and would seriously consider him at 2L OCI, but they just didn't want to take the added risk.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby bulinus » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:05 pm

Anyone else unable to access past course eval numbers?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Randomnumbers » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:12 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Birdnals wrote:The reason for the dearth of 1L STL SA's going to non-St. Louis natives is only because there are so very few of those and the vast majority go to diversity hiring programs. I don't think it really effects chances much more than 2L SA's, it is just such a small sample it may appear that way.


I know of 4 off the top of my head from my class that had little-to-no St. Louis ties and not really even midwest ties that got 2L SA offers in St. Louis. I am sure there are a few more I just don't know about too. I think there is a lot of selection bias involved in it, as lots of the top people with the grades to overcome the ties issue tend to go to different/bigger markets.


I've heard an anecdote that one major STL firm told a candidate from WUSTL during 1L OCI that they liked everything about him but his lack of ties, and would seriously consider him at 2L OCI, but they just didn't want to take the added risk.


I'm sure it's happened, but I'm not personally aware of any non-diversity 1L biglaw SA's in St Louis without ties. They like to take the kids with great grades and ties, and then even if they go elsewhere for 2L OCI, a lot of them will return to the hometown firm when they graduate. But how many non diversity 1L SA's are there even in town? 5? 10? Bryan Cave doesn't hire any, for example.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:17 pm

Randomnumbers wrote:I'm sure it's happened, but I'm not personally aware of any non-diversity 1L biglaw SA's in St Louis without ties. They like to take the kids with great grades and ties, and then even if they go elsewhere for 2L OCI, a lot of them will return to the hometown firm when they graduate. But how many non diversity 1L SA's are there even in town? 5? 10? Bryan Cave doesn't hire any, for example.

I am aware of 2 firms (LR and Husch) which give out a few non-diverse SA's every year. Then there are firms like AT which may take one if they find a candidate they love. I would bet there have not been more then 4-6 TOTAL non-diverse true SA's available in St. Louis in recent memory.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:32 pm

Birdnals wrote:
Randomnumbers wrote:I'm sure it's happened, but I'm not personally aware of any non-diversity 1L biglaw SA's in St Louis without ties. They like to take the kids with great grades and ties, and then even if they go elsewhere for 2L OCI, a lot of them will return to the hometown firm when they graduate. But how many non diversity 1L SA's are there even in town? 5? 10? Bryan Cave doesn't hire any, for example.

I am aware of 2 firms (LR and Husch) which give out a few non-diverse SA's every year. Then there are firms like AT which may take one if they find a candidate they love. I would bet there have not been more then 4-6 TOTAL non-diverse true SA's available in St. Louis in recent memory.

LR called me (in addition to sending their rejection letter on dat nice stationary) to say i didn't get the job because they have to make hairline distinctions at the 1L level and that i didn't have the requisite connections. But he said "if you want to join us as a 2L, we could probably make that happen." Leading me on....

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Cellar-door » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:35 pm

bulinus wrote:Anyone else unable to access past course eval numbers?

Yep.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lakerinstl » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:52 pm

Birdnals wrote:
Ricky-Bobby wrote:Well, shit. That doesn't seem nearly as rosy as I would like. I'm going to bust my ass either way, but I'd like to have a reasonably certain good chance of getting a STL 2L SA if my grades fall where I want them to.

Thanks for the help, birdinals.

edit: changed the word "certain" for accuracy

That's just how the market is, nothing you can do to change it. I still think if you are a St. Louis Native who wants St. Louis Biglaw then WUSTL is the place to be (if the money is right).

T-14 grads have other options but I think lots of St. Louis firms look at them as a flight risk and that is a hard presumption to overcome in an insular/little man syndrome-esk market like STL. Mizzou gets shockingly little respect for a state flagship, and SLU is noticeably slipping. Both of which I think you have to be top 5%, or maybe top 10-15% with phenomenal interview/softs, to even get a callback at most of these firms.

Just from personal experience, I go to Mizzou (and I'm born and raised in St. Louis). I'm a little above top half at Mizzou. Had a screener interview with every big firm in St. Louis except for Bryan Cave. Had callbacks with Thompson Coburn and Armstrong Teasdale. I didn't get an offer from either one (working as a summer associate somewhere else this summer), but I did at least get beyond the screener stage with them even though I wasn't close to top 5%. Was told by one of the people on the hiring committee at AT that it was a toss up between me and another candidate from Wash U. Pisses me off, but nothing I can do about it now.

I think what helped most in getting the interviews was that I worked at a law firm for 5 years prior to law school. Beyond that, the screener interviews I had for TC and AT went extremely well.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:58 pm

lakerinstl wrote:Just from personal experience, I go to Mizzou (and I'm born and raised in St. Louis). I'm a little above top half at Mizzou. Had a screener interview with every big firm in St. Louis except for Bryan Cave. Had callbacks with Thompson Coburn and Armstrong Teasdale. I didn't get an offer from either one (working as a summer associate somewhere else this summer), but I did at least get beyond the screener stage with them even though I wasn't close to top 5%. Was told by one of the people on the hiring committee at AT that it was a toss up between me and another candidate from Wash U. Pisses me off, but nothing I can do about it now.

I think what helped most in getting the interviews was that I worked at a law firm for 5 years prior to law school. Beyond that, the screener interviews I had for TC and AT went extremely well.

This is interesting to me. You an IP dude?

I just ask because I know a ton of people who either went to, or graduated from, Mizzou law and they seem to get so little respect by St. Louis biglaw, especially compared to SLU. Anecdotally, I know a guy who graduated a couple years ago who was #1 in his class after first semester and #3 or 4 after first year and ended up striking out of STL biglaw and working at a nicer midlaw firm.

Super charismatic guy too, but was k-JD so likely didn't have the legal connections you did.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lakerinstl » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Birdnals wrote:
lakerinstl wrote:Just from personal experience, I go to Mizzou (and I'm born and raised in St. Louis). I'm a little above top half at Mizzou. Had a screener interview with every big firm in St. Louis except for Bryan Cave. Had callbacks with Thompson Coburn and Armstrong Teasdale. I didn't get an offer from either one (working as a summer associate somewhere else this summer), but I did at least get beyond the screener stage with them even though I wasn't close to top 5%. Was told by one of the people on the hiring committee at AT that it was a toss up between me and another candidate from Wash U. Pisses me off, but nothing I can do about it now.

I think what helped most in getting the interviews was that I worked at a law firm for 5 years prior to law school. Beyond that, the screener interviews I had for TC and AT went extremely well.

This is interesting to me. You an IP dude?

I just ask because I know a ton of people who either went to, or graduated from, Mizzou law and they seem to get so little respect by St. Louis biglaw, especially compared to SLU. Anecdotally, I know a guy who graduated a couple years ago who was #1 in his class after first semester and #3 or 4 after first year and ended up striking out of STL biglaw and working at a nicer midlaw firm.

Super charismatic guy too, but was k-JD so likely didn't have the legal connections you did.


Nope, not IP. In my interviews I told them my main interests were labor and employment or other litigation areas. For whatever it may have helped, I'm also a black male and grew up in north city. Beyond that, I'm almost certain my experience at a firm for 5 years is what attracted them to give me the screener interview, and I did reasonably well in the TC and AT screeners.

Like I said, I still didn't get an offer from either firm, but I was one that bucked the apparent trend that only top 5-10% at Mizzou get a sniff from the big STL firms.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Randomnumbers » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:18 am

Birdnals wrote:
Randomnumbers wrote:I'm sure it's happened, but I'm not personally aware of any non-diversity 1L biglaw SA's in St Louis without ties. They like to take the kids with great grades and ties, and then even if they go elsewhere for 2L OCI, a lot of them will return to the hometown firm when they graduate. But how many non diversity 1L SA's are there even in town? 5? 10? Bryan Cave doesn't hire any, for example.

I am aware of 2 firms (LR and Husch) which give out a few non-diverse SA's every year. Then there are firms like AT which may take one if they find a candidate they love. I would bet there have not been more then 4-6 TOTAL non-diverse true SA's available in St. Louis in recent memory.



Yes, but those SAs always go to people with ties. LR and Husch hire a very small number of 1L SA, I know that Korein Tillery sometimes does (they are a boutique plaintiff's side class action firm) and that's all I can think of off the top of my head for non diversity.

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:23 am

it was your work experience.
firms love experience. resumes with real things on them that don't read "lifeguard" or "camp counselor"

but for those already in law school, not much you can do to change the resume.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:19 pm

BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

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chuckbass
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:49 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

I had heard that this was happening with the glass ceiling, is it really going to?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:18 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

I had heard that this was happening with the glass ceiling, is it really going to?

From what I've heard, they're seriously considering it. But that's all rumor. A few credible sources confirmed though. For more details, ask cuse I guess

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby chuckbass » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:20 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

I had heard that this was happening with the glass ceiling, is it really going to?

From what I've heard, they're seriously considering it. But that's all rumor. A few credible sources confirmed though. For more details, ask cuse I guess

Cuse knows all.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:31 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

I had heard that this was happening with the glass ceiling, is it really going to?

From what I've heard, they're seriously considering it. But that's all rumor. A few credible sources confirmed though. For more details, ask cuse I guess

Cuse knows all.

I'll ask him when I see him later

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:15 pm

lhanvt13 wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
lhanvt13 wrote:BOYCOTT WUSTL until they make the dome retractable

I had heard that this was happening with the glass ceiling, is it really going to?

From what I've heard, they're seriously considering it. But that's all rumor. A few credible sources confirmed though. For more details, ask cuse I guess


What a waste of money that would be. That would cost like 100 scholarships probably.




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