WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:46 pm

For those wondering, 55/300 into NLJ250 for most recent data.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:00 pm

JCougar wrote:
hoos89 wrote:3000 words really is not that many for a 3 hour exam with no word limit. Depending on the exam, I am skeptical that you could sufficiently analyze every issue in that amount of words, and I wouldn't be surprised if you had some conclusory or non-objective analysis (i.e. not looking at both sides). Spotting the issues is a relatively small portion of the grade compared to analysis, so the fact that you were finding the same issues as your peers is borderline irrelevant if they were doing more detailed analysis.


Maybe, but I did just fine when there was a word limit.

I struggle with being concise on these exams. Mostly because I'm so paranoid about missing something that I just word vomit all over the screen to cover all my bases. I'm actually super envious of the people that can do just as well/better with fewer words

goldeneye wrote:For those wondering, 55/300 into NLJ250 for most recent data.

That's an improvement right? I don't remember what the percentage was last year but it sounds like we placed more just in terms of raw numbers

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Jay2716 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:47 pm

hoos89 wrote:3000 words really is not that many for a 3 hour exam with no word limit. Depending on the exam, I am skeptical that you could sufficiently analyze every issue in that amount of words, and I wouldn't be surprised if you had some conclusory or non-objective analysis (i.e. not looking at both sides). Spotting the issues is a relatively small portion of the grade compared to analysis, so the fact that you were finding the same issues as your peers is borderline irrelevant if they were doing more detailed analysis.


I haven't broken 3200 words on an exam and I've done well so far. I doubt 7000 words is hardly ever necessary for an A. Maybe necessary for a CALI, but I've done fine without approaching the WCs I keep hearing about.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:55 pm

Jay2716 wrote:
hoos89 wrote:3000 words really is not that many for a 3 hour exam with no word limit. Depending on the exam, I am skeptical that you could sufficiently analyze every issue in that amount of words, and I wouldn't be surprised if you had some conclusory or non-objective analysis (i.e. not looking at both sides). Spotting the issues is a relatively small portion of the grade compared to analysis, so the fact that you were finding the same issues as your peers is borderline irrelevant if they were doing more detailed analysis.


I haven't broken 3200 words on an exam and I've done well so far. I doubt 7000 words is hardly ever necessary for an A. Maybe necessary for a CALI, but I've done fine without approaching the WCs I keep hearing about.


Do you go to WUSTL? An "A" here could be a 91. A CALI could be a 100. That's a game-changing difference. 7000 words might not be strictly necessary, but it sure improves your odds.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Jay2716 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:12 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
Jay2716 wrote:
hoos89 wrote:3000 words really is not that many for a 3 hour exam with no word limit. Depending on the exam, I am skeptical that you could sufficiently analyze every issue in that amount of words, and I wouldn't be surprised if you had some conclusory or non-objective analysis (i.e. not looking at both sides). Spotting the issues is a relatively small portion of the grade compared to analysis, so the fact that you were finding the same issues as your peers is borderline irrelevant if they were doing more detailed analysis.


I haven't broken 3200 words on an exam and I've done well so far. I doubt 7000 words is hardly ever necessary for an A. Maybe necessary for a CALI, but I've done fine without approaching the WCs I keep hearing about.


Do you go to WUSTL? An "A" here could be a 91. A CALI could be a 100. That's a game-changing difference. 7000 words might not be strictly necessary, but it sure improves your odds.


My lowest doctrinal has been a 92. Like I said, 7000 might me necessary for the CALI, but I haven't gotten lower than a 92 and have not hit 3200 words. It's one anecdote, so obviously YMMV, but I think the word count obsession is overblown.

ETA: obviously WC helps w/ profs that just add points, but I know people that hit 6000-7000 words in every class (or maxed the WC) without getting one A.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:24 pm

goldeneye wrote:For those wondering, 55/300 into NLJ250 for most recent data.


That doesn't sound good. Where'd you get that info?

18.3% into Biglaw.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Jay2716 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:29 pm

JCougar wrote:
goldeneye wrote:For those wondering, 55/300 into NLJ250 for most recent data.


That doesn't sound good. Where'd you get that info?

18.3% into Biglaw.


LST has the previous year as 18.4% into >250 firms and 23% into >100. NLJ 250 would be somewhere in between. That sucks if true.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:38 pm

Funny how I'm connected to probably all 55 of those that made Biglaw on LinkedIn...but probably a few dozen people doing other stuff. Certainly a higher percentage of people struggling don't feel comfortable admitting it. Which is why "median salary" figures were always bogus.

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:46 pm

JCougar wrote:Funny how I'm connected to probably all 55 of those that made Biglaw on LinkedIn...but probably a few dozen people doing other stuff. Certainly a higher percentage of people struggling don't feel comfortable admitting it. Which is why "median salary" figures were always bogus.


The number came from the NLJ Go-to-law schools. For whatever reason I was able to access them for a bit. While there are certainly less people that are 3Ls and 2Ls now, I think the percentage will be slightly higher but not much. Had heard that the 2Ls were at 40% around christmas time with something for the summer, but I'm sure that includes PI, judges, firms of all sizes.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:57 pm

goldeneye wrote:The number came from the NLJ Go-to-law schools. For whatever reason I was able to access them for a bit. While there are certainly less people that are 3Ls and 2Ls now, I think the percentage will be slightly higher but not much. Had heard that the 2Ls were at 40% around christmas time with something for the summer, but I'm sure that includes PI, judges, firms of all sizes.


I was wondering when those were coming out. Were you able to screenshot the rest of the schools, or did you see how we did in relation to our peers?

They actually might be worse across the board than the year before, despite there being the same number of Biglaw positions, because c/o 2013 was so massive. I enrolled thinking there would be at least a slight bounce-back by the time I graduated, but it was more of a "splat" than a bounce.

40% by Christmas sounds significantly better than our class, even if it is for the summer. I think not much more than 40% of our class had something lined up at graduation. Since then, I've seen a slow trickle of people finding something. A lot of times, it has been a decent fit. I didn't find my 2L job until the end of May, but at least it was paid.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:16 pm

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:22 pm

I didn't, but looks like someone else posted a link here that I was able to find. http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format ... l%2FisP1J6

looks like a weird link but it's google doc

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:15 am

Anybody have thoughts/suggestions/warnings about externships/clinics offered? Any that you thought were awesome or horrible?

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kd5
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby kd5 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Does anyone on here know any WUSTL 3Ls (class of 2014) who had SA positions at Stinson last summer? If so, PM me please.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Randomnumbers » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:09 pm

kd5 wrote:Does anyone on here know any WUSTL 3Ls (class of 2014) who had SA positions at Stinson last summer? If so, PM me please.


If you are a WUSTL student, I'd just ask CSO to put you into contact with those people.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby kd5 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 pm

Randomnumbers wrote:
kd5 wrote:Does anyone on here know any WUSTL 3Ls (class of 2014) who had SA positions at Stinson last summer? If so, PM me please.


If you are a WUSTL student, I'd just ask CSO to put you into contact with those people.

Not a WUSTL student, or I totally would :-)

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby NoChainz » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:35 pm

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llmcandidate
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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby llmcandidate » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:45 pm

Although this forum is for JD applicants, maybe someone could provide information regarding the LLM program in US Law?

I'm a principal candidate for the Foreign Fulbright scholarship and I have recently been admitted to the WUSTL. As far as I understand, LLM students are taking classes together with the JDs, so I have couple of questions in this regard.

Before I proceed, here's a little bit of information about my goals and background: WUSTL was the highest ranked university the IIE offered to me and I don't have any money-related questions as all the costs will be covered by the Fulbright program and the WUSTL. I am currently working for the government of my home state (one of the member states of the EU) and after the graduation I have a two-year home residency requirement. I have professional experience in both public and private sector, mostly in international litigation. I would like to put a specific emphasis on the public international law, human rights and international arbitration (both commercial and investment).

So here goes my questions:
1) How is the relationship between JDs and LLMs? Approximately how many LLMs are enrolling each year?
2) How diverse is the class? I mean, most of you, of course, are Americans, but do you have at least couple of Europeans as well?
3) As the curriculum for the LLM program provided in the WUSTL's website is pretty unclear to me, do you have any classes specifically related to the international investment law and/or international investment arbitration?
4) How is professor Leila Sadat as she is basically the one who is giving all the human rights-related lectures?
5) At least from your point of you, is it possible to get some international contacts (the UN or WTO) from the WUSTL, or will it be more wise to take a lower ranked LLM program located in the DC, if I plan to work in Europe / outside the US? How you heard about any WUSTL graduates working in international organisations, NGOs or European law firms?
6) Could you say that WUSTL is not only nationally well-know school but also internationally? Apart from the US News law school ranking, WUSTL is ranked #32 worldwide in the Shanghai ranking (much higher than, for example, Georgetown, which is ranked between 301-400). As I am not planning to stay in the US, it is extremely important for me to convince myself (and my future employers) that WUSTL is actually a very good overall school because many Europeans have never heard about such schools as Northwestern, Vanderbilt or even the aforementioned Georgetown. So, if I am not going to Harvard or Yale, at the end it is all about the marketing... Do you feel that the WUSTL is a world class university?
7) I have never been in the US, so could you compare St. Louis with some major European cities? As otherwise, it is extremely hard to get the right impression from the limited number of Youtube videos and pictures found on Google.
8) In general, is it hard for LLM graduates to pass the NY State bar with the overall knowledge gained in a one-year LLM program?

Thank you in advance!

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby dietcoke0 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:15 pm

I don't have a huge involvement with LLM, but will give you some insight:

1) How is the relationship between JDs and LLMs? Approximately how many LLMs are enrolling each year?

There is no animosity, however there seems to be some segregation between LLM and JDs. It's mostly due to cliques forming from familiarity (JDs will have the same classes, while LLMs will also the same classes together) Some LLMs break into JD groups and vice versa, but not always. It all depends on how outgoing you are.


2) How diverse is the class? I mean, most of you, of course, are Americans, but do you have at least couple of Europeans as well?

There is plenty of Italian, and I believe some Germans. There's a few other Europeans I believe, but not a huge contingent. Other LLMs are Asian and Australian.


3) As the curriculum for the LLM program provided in the WUSTL's website is pretty unclear to me, do you have any classes specifically related to the international investment law and/or international investment arbitration?

Can't answer, but I think it depends on what you want to do.


4) How is professor Leila Sadat as she is basically the one who is giving all the human rights-related lectures?

I hear nothing but GREAT things about her


5) At least from your point of you, is it possible to get some international contacts (the UN or WTO) from the WUSTL, or will it be more wise to take a lower ranked LLM program located in the DC, if I plan to work in Europe / outside the US? How you heard about any WUSTL graduates working in international organisations, NGOs or European law firms?

We have a transnational program where you spend 3 semesters abroad, and there students work at Euro Law Firms. There are plenty of students working for UN sponsored NGOs and other international organizations for summer work, however I don't know if they are getting actual jobs after graduation.


6) Could you say that WUSTL is not only nationally well-know school but also internationally? Apart from the US News law school ranking, WUSTL is ranked #32 worldwide in the Shanghai ranking (much higher than, for example, Georgetown, which is ranked between 301-400). As I am not planning to stay in the US, it is extremely important for me to convince myself (and my future employers) that WUSTL is actually a very good overall school because many Europeans have never heard about such schools as Northwestern, Vanderbilt or even the aforementioned Georgetown. So, if I am not going to Harvard or Yale, at the end it is all about the marketing... Do you feel that the WUSTL is a world class university?

I don't feel Wash U is that well known in the US. However, if they have never heard of N'Western, Vandy or G'Town, which are three highly regarded universities in America, Wash U won't matter anyway. Those three schools are similarly situated than Wash U, but I would venture to say all things equal, I'd go to all three before Wash U. Wash U med school makes it a little more well known, but I a not going to call very many universities in America World Class outside of the Top 10.


7) I have never been in the US, so could you compare St. Louis with some major European cities? As otherwise, it is extremely hard to get the right impression from the limited number of Youtube videos and pictures found on Google.

St Louis doesn't really translate to an European cities. Euro cities are usually centrally located, where everything is in a CBD. St. Louis is very spread out, and roughly 25km from East to West, and maybe another 15-20km North to South (the CBD is about 17KM from Wash U law school) I've traveled extensively in Lawrence, and couldn't really say it is similar to any city, however it is a typical Midwest US city. The population for example is about 300k in St Louis, the city. However, the metro area is about 2.5 Million, which hints it is just spread out everywhere. Maybe a smaller less pretty (yes less) Frankfurt.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:21 pm

I'll try to answer some of these.

So here goes my questions:
1) How is the relationship between JDs and LLMs? Approximately how many LLMs are enrolling each year?
May of the LLM students who feel comfortable mixing with Americans form great relationships. There are other LLM students that tend to keep to their own countrymates. There isn't animosity between JD and LLM students. I'd say enrolling classes of LLMs number around 50 per year.

2) How diverse is the class? I mean, most of you, of course, are Americans, but do you have at least couple of Europeans as well?
The majority of each LLM class is actually Asian, specifically Chinese. WUSTL has a good partnership with Fudan University, the top law school in China, so it has a great reputation there and, as a result, a lot of Fudan students and students from other Chinese law schools gravitate to WUSTL.

That being said, there is always a handful of students from European countries and elsewhere. We've had Dutch, French, Italian, Portugal. We've also had Australians, some from various African countries, Korea, Japan. I'm sure there are more.

3) As the curriculum for the LLM program provided in the WUSTL's website is pretty unclear to me, do you have any classes specifically related to the international investment law and/or international investment arbitration?
International courses that I'm aware of (this is as of my graduation in 2013) are International Business Transactions, International Criminal Law, International Law, Foreign Relations Law seminar, International Courts and Tribunals, International Justice and Conflict Resolution EXTERNSHIP (pay close attention to this one as it has placements with NGOs which I know was one of your questions), International Money Laundering, International Tax, International Trade Law, International Intellectual Property seminar, War Crimes seminar, and there is an International Law Moot Court team.

See links below where you can find more information on each course that I listed above and perhaps find more courses you'd be interested in.
http://law.wustl.edu/registrar/coursedi ... ersion.pdf
http://law.wustl.edu/registrar/coursedi ... ersion.pdf

4) How is professor Leila Sadat as she is basically the one who is giving all the human rights-related lectures?
I had her for international law. Personally I liked her a lot. She can be a challenge to have for class because she has a lot of experience internationally and often talks at a high level as opposed to talking about the specific details of cases that are being studies (which you have more responsibility to learn on your own). But she is very talented and intelligent and, to my understanding, very well respected in the study of international law.

5) At least from your point of you, is it possible to get some international contacts (the UN or WTO) from the WUSTL, or will it be more wise to take a lower ranked LLM program located in the DC, if I plan to work in Europe / outside the US? How you heard about any WUSTL graduates working in international organisations, NGOs or European law firms?
I think I touched on this a bit in answering about courses. There are certainly opportunities to gain international contacts. Someone else would likely be better to speak to this more specifically though. I was not seeking such contacts. The admissions office could likely put you in touch with students who are seeking more international experience so you can ask them some questions.

6) Could you say that WUSTL is not only nationally well-know school but also internationally? Apart from the US News law school ranking, WUSTL is ranked #32 worldwide in the Shanghai ranking (much higher than, for example, Georgetown, which is ranked between 301-400). As I am not planning to stay in the US, it is extremely important for me to convince myself (and my future employers) that WUSTL is actually a very good overall school because many Europeans have never heard about such schools as Northwestern, Vanderbilt or even the aforementioned Georgetown. So, if I am not going to Harvard or Yale, at the end it is all about the marketing... Do you feel that the WUSTL is a world class university?
I touched on this a little bit from the perspective of China in my responses above. I think WUSTL's "world class" reputation is going depend on the market. This reputation is certainly something that is important to the school. I studied abroad for a semester in China and the legal community there is certainly familiar with the school. I cannot speak to EU markets.

7) I have never been in the US, so could you compare St. Louis with some major European cities? As otherwise, it is extremely hard to get the right impression from the limited number of Youtube videos and pictures found on Google.
St. Louis will not have the feel of any "major city." It is a city, but a smaller one. Public transportation will not be as good as major cities, but is manageable if you live in the right area. There are certainly a lot of good places to eat, and enough places to have fun. The law school sponsors weekly outings for the students to help them get to know the area and to have fun (they called "Bar Review"). This would also be a good chance to mingle with the JD students because the events tend to be very well attended.

8. In general, is it hard for LLM graduates to pass the NY State bar with the overall knowledge gained in a one-year LLM program?
It is more difficult for LLM students who struggle with english literacy; however this is rare by the time a student is applying to do a foreign law program. In terms of taking the bar exam of any state in the US (NY included), law school does not prepare students for the bar exam directly. The vast majority of bar exam applicants register for a review course after graduating, then take the bar exam after the course concludes at the end of July.

I hope some of these answers have been helpful. But like I said you should contact admissions and see if they can put you in touch with some LLM students and JD students that are involved in international programs and have worked for tribunals and NGOs during their summers or during semester externships.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby llmcandidate » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:28 pm

Thank you very much for your answers! :) It helps a lot! Unfortunately, Georgetown and Northwestern are not being considered. The Fulbright program is choosing universities on my behalf taking into account my credentials and available funding. WUSTL is the highest ranked school I was offered.

dietcoke0, thanks for the comparison with Frankfurt! :D I guess every city has its own charm, but there is nothing much to see in Frankfurt. At least St. Louis has the Arch.

There is one more question that came up to my mind - is it easy and affordable to travel from St. Louis to other parts of the US? And do the law students have time to do that? For instance, when American/Australian/Asian undergraduate students visit my home country for their exchange year, they are travelling all the time. I would like to do some road trips to the East Coast, New England (especially, in the autumn) and California during the year. Taking into account all the classes and exams, is it doable?

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:37 pm

llmcandidate wrote:Thank you very much for your answers! :) It helps a lot! Unfortunately, Georgetown and Northwestern are not being considered. The Fulbright program is choosing universities on my behalf taking into account my credentials and available funding. WUSTL is the highest ranked school I was offered.

dietcoke0, thanks for the comparison with Frankfurt! :D I guess every city has its own charm, but there is nothing much to see in Frankfurt. At least St. Louis has the Arch.

There is one more question that came up to my mind - is it easy and affordable to travel from St. Louis to other parts of the US? And do the law students have time to do that? For instance, when American/Australian/Asian undergraduate students visit my home country for their exchange year, they are travelling all the time. I would like to do some road trips to the East Coast, New England (especially, in the autumn) and California during the year. Taking into account all the classes and exams, is it doable?


Unfortunately American legal studies are regarded as far more intense and vigorous than in other countries. For this reason, when Americans study law abroad, it feels like a vacation. Likewise when non-US students study in America, they feel a lot more pressure. In addition, when Americans travel abroad, their grades are often evaluated by their home university on a pass/fail basis which relieves a lot of pressure to perform well in the classroom.

Typically it is difficult to travel "all the time." Weekend trips are possible. And there is a Fall and Spring break to take longer trips. Taking road trips from St. Louis to the coasts of the United States is not entirely feasible because the country is quite large. This is something that is very different from Europe. Most travel to the coasts by plane, which can be pretty expensive if not planned sufficiently in advance. Some train travel is possible, but it takes a lot longer.

If you are clever about how you schedule your classes and you have either Friday or Monday off, you have longer weekends in which to take trips. But again, the pace of an American legal education is often very different than in other countries (this is one of the most common initial observations of LLM students).

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby llmcandidate » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:55 pm

Thanks, fl0w, you're being very helpful! I will take those advices into consideration! Finally, do you feel that being in St. Louis offers more for a foreign student in terms of quality of life and overall prestige of the university than being in Notre Dame (one of my other options) or DC (American)? As I pointed out earlier, I have the feeling that if I do not end up in a top 10 school, all the other schools are very similar for European perspective. So, I have to go with my gut feeling, overall prestige of the university (as I will have to eventually sell it to my employer anyway), and the quality of life. DC, of course, sounds better, however I do not have the same feeling about the AU. Feel free to comment on this matter. I appreciate your comments very much.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:06 pm

llmcandidate wrote:Thanks, fl0w, you're being very helpful! I will take those advices into consideration! Finally, do you feel that being in St. Louis offers more for a foreign student in terms of quality of life and overall prestige of the university than being in Notre Dame (one of my other options) or DC (American)? As I pointed out earlier, I have the feeling that if I do not end up in a top 10 school, all the other schools are very similar for European perspective. So, I have to go with my gut feeling, overall prestige of the university (as I will have to eventually sell it to my employer anyway), and the quality of life. DC, of course, sounds better, however I do not have the same feeling about the AU. Feel free to comment on this matter. I appreciate your comments very much.


You will have a much better quality of life at WUSTL than at ND. And the schools are very comparable. DC will be a better quality of life than WUSTL or ND because it is more metropolitan than St. Louis; there is a lot more to see, a lot more engaging history, etc. It is the nation's capital, after all. But you could see a lot of this in a weekend trip.

Many in the forum know that I personally dislike St. Louis as a city. I am much more accustomed to larger cities and St. Louis did not satisfy me in that regard. But I concede that there is enough to do in St. Louis for you to have fun. And not so much to do that you will be too distracted from your studies.

In terms of prestige, as you said if none of your university choices are top 10 then they are all sort of on the same level of prestige. The way you'd sell any of them would be very similar. But I think WUSTL is much stronger in terms of studying international concepts than, for example, Notre Dame. And I am not aware of any other law school that offers quite the same level of opportunity as WUSTL for students to study abroad and travel during their JD program which leads me to believe the school takes an international focus seriously. Granted I haven't researched this aspect heavily concerning other schools, but that is my impression.

A choice of school is very personal. I hope you are able to ask similar questions about all of the other schools that you are considering and are able to get comparable levels of feedback that will assist you in making your choice.

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Re: WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:58 pm

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