WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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lushka
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby lushka » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:10 pm

lushka wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
theturkeyisfat wrote:so how many people would you say get the 100k jobs? and are people who aren't from the area at a disadvantage? also, how well does the school place in KC?

These are my best guesses for NLJ firms PLUS clerkships (because most who clerk in Article III and some who do Article I will get an NLJ 250 firm)

Pre-boom: ~30% (some were started at slightly less than 100k because not all NLJ firms pay 6 figures to start)

Last year or two: Anyone's guess, but I'd say 20-25% or so (We were around 18-19% in the latest NLJ data, and then throw in clerks who got NLJ after clerking and its probably close to 25%)

This fall: Even more of anyone's guess, but probably guess back to about 25% of my class will get a biglaw SA. Not quite as high as pre-ITE, but better.

People who aren't from STL are at a disadvantage, but you can make up for it with good grades and a tangible reason for wanting to be here, especially if you are from the Midwest.

And yes, we place decently into KC. We're the best school that feeds into KC, and we send a decent number of people there every year. But again, it helps to be from there or have ties.



What percentage would you estimate get biglaw in Chicago? East Coast?
Thanks




Oh and one more question. How are they able to fudge their data to having a median income of 150-160k/yr when its not even remotely close?!

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Rock Chalk
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Rock Chalk » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:25 pm

lushka wrote:Oh and one more question. How are they able to fudge their data to having a median income of 150-160k/yr when its not even remotely close?!

Same as EVERY other school - self-reporting.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Rock Chalk » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
theturkeyisfat wrote:so how many people would you say get the 100k jobs? and are people who aren't from the area at a disadvantage? also, how well does the school place in KC?

And yes, we place decently into KC. We're the best school that feeds into KC, and we send a decent number of people there every year. But again, it helps to be from there or have ties.

+1. It sounds like you're looking for KC, which means in an interview you'd be able to give a good, honest answer when asked "Why KC?" (as you inevitably would be without ties). Firms just want to know you're not just blasting your résumé to everyone in sight, and if they gave you the SA you wouldn't jump ship for Chicago at the first opportunity. Expect the same at STL firms.

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theturkeyisfat
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby theturkeyisfat » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:
theturkeyisfat wrote:so how many people would you say get the 100k jobs? and are people who aren't from the area at a disadvantage? also, how well does the school place in KC?

These are my best guesses for NLJ firms PLUS clerkships (because most who clerk in Article III and some who do Article I will get an NLJ 250 firm)

Pre-boom: ~30% (some were started at slightly less than 100k because not all NLJ firms pay 6 figures to start)

Last year or two: Anyone's guess, but I'd say 20-25% or so (We were around 18-19% in the latest NLJ data, and then throw in clerks who got NLJ after clerking and its probably close to 25%)

This fall: Even more of anyone's guess, but probably guess back to about 25% of my class will get a biglaw SA. Not quite as high as pre-ITE, but better.

People who aren't from STL are at a disadvantage, but you can make up for it with good grades and a tangible reason for wanting to be here, especially if you are from the Midwest.

And yes, we place decently into KC. We're the best school that feeds into KC, and we send a decent number of people there every year. But again, it helps to be from there or have ties.


i saw the latest nlj data, but i was wondering if there was a significant number of people getting 100k jobs at local/regional firms that aren't in the nlj list. is this not the case? and this might be a vague/difficult question to answer, but what type of job should the "average" wustl grad expect?

as for kc, i'm from kansas, and i have a soft spot for kc. i hope that counts as ties

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lushka
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby lushka » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:12 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
lushka wrote:Oh and one more question. How are they able to fudge their data to having a median income of 150-160k/yr when its not even remotely close?!

Same as EVERY other school - self-reporting.



But I assume you cant just completely and obviously lie in self reporting... otherwise why wouldn't Wash U just say their LSAT range is 170-175. Yes everyone knows its not true, but who cares apparently? In other word you can self report 99% are employed because they're not just sitting on their ass at home, but they may be bagging groceries so that "counts" but basically NO ONE apparently is making 150 range...

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beachbum
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby beachbum » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:21 pm

lushka wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:
lushka wrote:Oh and one more question. How are they able to fudge their data to having a median income of 150-160k/yr when its not even remotely close?!

Same as EVERY other school - self-reporting.



But I assume you cant just completely and obviously lie in self reporting... otherwise why wouldn't Wash U just say their LSAT range is 170-175. Yes everyone knows its not true, but who cares apparently? In other word you can self report 99% are employed because they're not just sitting on their ass at home, but they may be bagging groceries so that "counts" but basically NO ONE apparently is making 150 range...


LSAT reporting is a lot different than employment reporting.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Rock Chalk » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:25 pm

lushka wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:
lushka wrote:Oh and one more question. How are they able to fudge their data to having a median income of 150-160k/yr when its not even remotely close?!

Same as EVERY other school - self-reporting.

But I assume you cant just completely and obviously lie in self reporting... otherwise why wouldn't Wash U just say their LSAT range is 170-175. Yes everyone knows its not true, but who cares apparently? In other word you can self report 99% are employed because they're not just sitting on their ass at home, but they may be bagging groceries so that "counts" but basically NO ONE apparently is making 150 range...

It's not the case that no one is making 150+. I happen to know a few students who got big city market-paying SA positions, but you're right that it's not the norm. When I say self-reporting, I mean schools base their statistics on optional surveys sent to graduates. They're not technically dishonest in that they report the survey results accurately, but you can imagine which students respond to the surveys and which don't. I could be wrong, but this has been my perception of the flawed US News reporting system.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Rock Chalk » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:43 pm

theturkeyisfat wrote:i saw the latest nlj data, but i was wondering if there was a significant number of people getting 100k jobs at local/regional firms that aren't in the nlj list. is this not the case? and this might be a vague/difficult question to answer, but what type of job should the "average" wustl grad expect?

as for kc, i'm from kansas, and i have a soft spot for kc. i hope that counts as ties

I know of at least 3 firms in St. Louis that pay 100k+ and aren't on the NLJ list, but I can't tell you with any degree of certainty how many 2L SA positions they'll end up giving to WUSTL students. I'm assuming that there may be more such firms since I didn't do much investigating to learn of the 3. I do know one of them is taking about 10 1Ls and 2Ls from SLU and WUSTL combined, which is promising given the size of the office.

I think that in order to adequately answer your "average WUSTL grad" question I'd need to know the situations of 2Ls and 3Ls around median, and I don't have that information.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:15 pm

I'm not positive how Wash U does it, but almost all schools achieve their high salary stats by 1) using self-reporting numbers and 2) limiting the salary statistics to those in the private sector. I believe (as of last year) WUSTL's salary median was 145k, which I believe represents only those students who went into the private sector and responded to the survey.

And like rockchalk said, this isn't a WUSTL thing, this is a law school thing. All law schools do this type of thing.

The % of students who get 145k+ jobs in a good year is probably around ~15% in any given year, with another 10-15% landing 80k-145k. That's my best estimate.

FAR262
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby FAR262 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:I'm not positive how Wash U does it, but almost all schools achieve their high salary stats by 1) using self-reporting numbers and 2) limiting the salary statistics to those in the private sector. I believe (as of last year) WUSTL's salary median was 145k, which I believe represents only those students who went into the private sector and responded to the survey.

And like rockchalk said, this isn't a WUSTL thing, this is a law school thing. All law schools do this type of thing.

The % of students who get 145k+ jobs in a good year is probably around ~15% in any given year, with another 10-15% landing 80k-145k. That's my best estimate.


What would you say is the breakdown for the other 70-75%?

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:25 pm

FAR262 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I'm not positive how Wash U does it, but almost all schools achieve their high salary stats by 1) using self-reporting numbers and 2) limiting the salary statistics to those in the private sector. I believe (as of last year) WUSTL's salary median was 145k, which I believe represents only those students who went into the private sector and responded to the survey.

And like rockchalk said, this isn't a WUSTL thing, this is a law school thing. All law schools do this type of thing.

The % of students who get 145k+ jobs in a good year is probably around ~15% in any given year, with another 10-15% landing 80k-145k. That's my best estimate.


What would you say is the breakdown for the other 70-75%?

That should have been the other way around. 10-15% at 145, ~15% at 80-145. But again, that's a very rough estimate and I could be wrong. That's also in a good year.

The rest go into small firms, government, and PI jobs, just like they do at any other school. The majority will end up with legal jobs but like I've said many times before ITT, I am not a good person to ask about career stuff because I'm a 1L with little exposure to what things are like for the 2Ls, 3Ls, and recent grads..

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thexfactor
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby thexfactor » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:08 am

wustl ranked 18 now...
anyone popping bottles tonight???
PARRTTYY at blueberry hill???
lol

folgers
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby folgers » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:41 pm

JCougar wrote:Also, one caveat. Everything I said above should be treated as a general rule. Adjust from this rule if your professor gives you a different impression of what he/she wants on the exam. But be warned: I had two professors last semester that said "don't information dump." I took that as they wanted no-bullshit, straight to the meat of the argument responses. And those were my two lowest grades. Be wary of what they mean by "information dump." By this, they probably meant "don't just recite black letter law." This is a waste of time. But "information dump" is not the same as applying every single part of the law you possible can think of to the facts. You really have to be a gunner on the exam (even if you don't like the gunners in class). Instead of making a solid-sounding argument, you should be trying to show off that you know everything (to a point).

So the lesson is, professors can't always be trusted when you ask them what they want on the exam, so if there's any doubt, the more you talk about, the better, especially if it involves applying law to the facts. If you can connect any part or sub-part of the law to the facts to make some sort of argument, even if it's marginal, you should be doing it.


Another WUSTL 1L here, in the same section as Romo actually, and I just wanted to reiterate what Jcougar said and expand on it a little bit. It is important to go through the obvious steps in an exam, but with the caveat that is mentioned above here. My and Romo's torts professor would have gone crazy if we went through the analysis Jcougar mentioned earlier of the effects of the knuckles in a punch in a possible assault/battery. Our torts prof wanted issue, elements and how they apply even if they were painfully obvious but in his words "I don't want prose in your exam answer."

So in a negligence answer it was "Yes/no a duty is/isn't owed because..." or "the harm would have not resulted but for... because... " just basically knocking out each element down the list. He'd write it on the board every day and say this is what I want. Most professors definitely aren't as concise as this when it comes to what they want. However, pretty much all our profs this semester ask the same questions about each case - civ pro, "who sued who, for what and where?" con law "what is the local activity, how does it affect interstate commerce?" - and it's the same day after day but they don't come out and say write this on an exam.

A quick word about WUSTL in general. It's a great school, great profs, great students. I'm extremely pleased with my choice to attend. Romo has done a great job covering anything you could possibly want to know about WUSTL or Stl. My complaints are minor ones and truly insignificant - the cold weather has been a brutal adjustment for me being from the south so be prepared if you are from a warm weather climate, and the chairs in the library are old, wooden structures not designed for the human backside. I actually see people bring in cushions, seriously.
Last edited by folgers on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:51 pm

Anyone know if the tuition deposit can be paid online?

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:07 pm

It was hiding from me (in plain sight) on the admitted students website. Never mind.

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:02 pm

#18 now. Doesn't mean all that much, but maybe it will finally turn some heads and get WUSTL a little more respect/recognition...

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:51 pm

theturkeyisfat wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
theturkeyisfat wrote:so how many people would you say get the 100k jobs? and are people who aren't from the area at a disadvantage? also, how well does the school place in KC?

These are my best guesses for NLJ firms PLUS clerkships (because most who clerk in Article III and some who do Article I will get an NLJ 250 firm)

Pre-boom: ~30% (some were started at slightly less than 100k because not all NLJ firms pay 6 figures to start)

Last year or two: Anyone's guess, but I'd say 20-25% or so (We were around 18-19% in the latest NLJ data, and then throw in clerks who got NLJ after clerking and its probably close to 25%)

This fall: Even more of anyone's guess, but probably guess back to about 25% of my class will get a biglaw SA. Not quite as high as pre-ITE, but better.

People who aren't from STL are at a disadvantage, but you can make up for it with good grades and a tangible reason for wanting to be here, especially if you are from the Midwest.

And yes, we place decently into KC. We're the best school that feeds into KC, and we send a decent number of people there every year. But again, it helps to be from there or have ties.


i saw the latest nlj data, but i was wondering if there was a significant number of people getting 100k jobs at local/regional firms that aren't in the nlj list. is this not the case? and this might be a vague/difficult question to answer, but what type of job should the "average" wustl grad expect?

as for kc, i'm from kansas, and i have a soft spot for kc. i hope that counts as ties


In a typical economy, the top 33% here will get NLJ 250 jobs, or clerkships that lead to such jobs. I'd say probably about half of those make about $160K, and the other half make market rate in the smaller city they choose to work in ($110-125K in STL or Milwaukee, $100K in Indianapolis, etc.). Keep in mind that given the cost of living in smaller cities, $100K fresh out of grad school is a TON of money.

As for the percentage of those who get midlaw jobs that pay near $100K, I have no idea. Data I've seen from similar schools such as UIUC and Vanderbilt suggests that an additional 10-20% get midlaw jobs paying in the neighborhood of $100K ($80K-110K). So in an average OCI year, you can expect maybe the top half of the class to be getting something $80K or higher.

As for the bottom half, I can't tell you, but I am pretty sure you have to resort to networking to get jobs. And many of these jobs will be in the neighborhood of $50-60K. I do know a somewhat recent graduate who wasn't all that motivated and smoked a lot of weed, and graduated below median. He had to start out with a hourly-rate temp job making about $40K, but he did such a good job there that they promoted him...and then soon after that, he lateraled into a smaller NLJ250 firm in STL and is now making well into 6-figures.

Also, keep in mind that some people in the top third or top half (or even top 10%) choose not to do big firm work, and instead do criminal law, government work, small-town work, or public interest. So just because 33% get biglaw jobs doesn't mean you have to be exactly in the top 33% to get them. And although government work doesn't pay a ton, you do get your loans forgiven after 10 years, which can be a HUGE perk if you don't have a huge scholarship. Plus, you're not killing yourself working 70 hours a week in a government job. If I could land a job with the EEOC or NLRB, I'd be extremely happy (I want to do labor/employment law).

Also, If you're from anywhere in Kansas, I'd consider that sufficient ties to KC in order to get a job there. All the best KC firms recruit here, and our name is very well known over there.

Keep in mind that these numbers have gone down recently, but I think that by the time you guys do OCI, they will be back up pretty close to normal. They may get close even this fall, when I do OCI (I hope). The news from Kirkland & Ellis and Sidley & Austin is very encouraging. There's also (and I'm just speculating here) a potential for an over-correction in the market, where firms have cut hiring too much over the last few years that they need to hire more than normal these days (although I can't see that happening unless this Middle East business settles down and the price of oil stops spiking).

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beachbum
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby beachbum » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:24 pm

JCougar wrote:.


Dude, seriously great post. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to step away from the endless speculation of TLS, and to get an in-depth perspective from someone actually going through the process. Thanks again, and good luck with OCI.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:48 pm

beachbum wrote:
JCougar wrote:.


Dude, seriously great post. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to step away from the endless speculation of TLS, and to get an in-depth perspective from someone actually going through the process. Thanks again, and good luck with OCI.


+1

This thread has easily been more helpful to me over the past months than any other single resource.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:08 am

One word of caution, though...50% of our class will be at or below median. For those of you not good at math, that's a 1 in 2 chance that you're going to be in for a struggle. :wink: For the c/o 2011, being above median in no way means you are safe to even have a job lined up yet. Not sure what it will be like for c/o 2012...there's really no data from anywhere on that yet. c/o 2013 hasn't even done OCI yet. 1L summer OCI was horrible, but it's always bad for all schools...even Harvard.

Peg
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Peg » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:00 am

And how is #18 feeling tonight?

This childish 0L is feeling a little smug about her possible future alma mater. Rankings may not matter, but who cares!

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FuManChusco
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby FuManChusco » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:43 am

0LNewbie wrote:
beachbum wrote:
JCougar wrote:.


Dude, seriously great post. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to step away from the endless speculation of TLS, and to get an in-depth perspective from someone actually going through the process. Thanks again, and good luck with OCI.


+1

This thread has easily been more helpful to me over the past months than any other single resource.


Yeah, I tend to just stay silent ITT. Really good info and always on topic. a big thanks to all those contributing.

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby stratocophic » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:48 am

Peg wrote:And how is #18 feeling tonight?

This childish 0L is feeling a little smug about her possible future alma mater. Rankings may not matter, but who cares!

Image

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:18 am

0LNewbie wrote:This thread has easily been more helpful to me over the past months than any other single resource.

*blushes*

I'm glad this has been helpful for you guys.
Peg wrote:And how is #18 feeling tonight?

This childish 0L is feeling a little smug about her possible future alma mater. Rankings may not matter, but who cares!


If you saw my posts in the USNWR rankings thread, you know how I feel about this... rankings really don't make a difference to individual candidates in any given year, IMO. But with that said, we're all human, and we all like to indulge in these vain little games. So yes, a small part of me is very happy to see that we moved into 18th. Just don't tell anyone. :lol:

I will just reiterate, however, that no one should pick a school based solely, primarily, or even significantly based on rankings. I think they are a good resource early on in the process, but once it is time to actually pick a school, you should be looking at factors like geography, NLJ placement, scholarship money, and personal factors like fit. Movements in the rankings shouldn't matter by this point. WUSTL isn't a school on the rise just because USNWR says so. I do think we have upward potential, but I don't have to look in a for-profit magazine with bizarre rankings criteria to figures that out.

Once you get into law school (and I'd imagine the other law students ITT will agree), you will barely ever think about these rankings again. NLJ stats matter more to me now, and the only rankings I obsess over are my own class rank. But yes, the irrational, vain side of me thinks the bump to 18 is nice.

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Jackson Pollock
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Re: WUSTL 1L Taking Questions

Postby Jackson Pollock » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:24 am

What are the WUSTL-owned apartments like directly around the campus?

Is it a loud neighborhood?

Also, anyone going to the housing day?




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