WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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DoveBodyWash
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:49 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


Smaller class probably drove the percentage up probably right?


Unoriginalist wrote:29 university funded spots? Yowza.


It looks like they categorized the funded-positions as "Bar Passage Required" and put a handful of them in the JD-advantage group... Unless the Total Graduate count in the general summary table excludes the students in the 29 funded-positions or something..

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby WokeUpInACar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:51 pm

cusenation wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


Smaller class probably drove the percentage up probably right?

56/317 v. 70/300

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby DoveBodyWash » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:52 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:
cusenation wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


Smaller class probably drove the percentage up probably right?

56/317 v. 70/300


hot damn

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:18 pm

Just got out of a meeting with the deans and some other student leaders. I don't want to give away too much in advance of tomorrow's meeting (everyone should go), but I'll just say that tomorrow isn't going to be the bad news people are expecting. In fact, as you guys have obviously already noticed, the employment data for c/o 2012 is considerably better than c/o 2011, and the employment data for our class (2013) is up from this time last year. That's pretty amazing considering how far enormous the c/o 2013 is. They're also going to be announcing some interesting Semester in Practice stuff (basically expanding the externship program) and some international stuff that probably doesn't affect the majority of us. They seemed cautiously optimistic about our ranking, since its really unclear what the new algorithm is going to look like from USNWR.

The somewhat bad news is yes, tuition is going up, and it sounds like admissions is a struggle here like it is everywhere right now. Though it sounds like our apps are down less than the national average and less than our peers, so hopefully we can hold steady on our matriculant data.

Our school has its fair share of problems with placement and all that, but I will say (and I said this around this time last year too) that I have a lot of confidence in our administration. Dean Syverud and Dean Laybold are both really receptive to ideas and feedback from the student body. Overall, it sounds like the school is fairly healthy right now. Don't read this as me saying to unequivocally attend; I'm not. No way is this school worth sticker, and law school generally is still a tough investment ITE. But I do think things are looking up at WUSTL, and I think the smaller class sizes will continue to help with placement.

0Ls, tomorrow evening I'll probably put together a little recap of today/tomorrow's meetings to give you a sense of what's going on, so check back.

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andy261
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby andy261 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:28 pm

romothesavior wrote:Just got out of a meeting with the deans and some other student leaders. I don't want to give away too much in advance of tomorrow's meeting (everyone should go), but I'll just say that tomorrow isn't going to be the bad news people are expecting. In fact, as you guys have obviously already noticed, the employment data for c/o 2012 is considerably better than c/o 2011, and the employment data for our class (2013) is up from this time last year. That's pretty amazing considering how far enormous the c/o 2013 is. They're also going to be announcing some interesting Semester in Practice stuff (basically expanding the externship program) and some international stuff that probably doesn't affect the majority of us. They seemed cautiously optimistic about our ranking, since its really unclear what the new algorithm is going to look like from USNWR.

The somewhat bad news is yes, tuition is going up, and it sounds like admissions is a struggle here like it is everywhere right now. Though it sounds like our apps are down less than the national average and less than our peers, so hopefully we can hold steady on our matriculant data.

Our school has its fair share of problems with placement and all that, but I will say (and I said this around this time last year too) that I have a lot of confidence in our administration. Dean Syverud and Dean Laybold are both really receptive to ideas and feedback from the student body. Overall, it sounds like the school is fairly healthy right now. Don't read this as me saying to unequivocally attend; I'm not. No way is this school worth sticker, and law school generally is still a tough investment ITE. But I do think things are looking up at WUSTL, and I think the smaller class sizes will continue to help with placement.

0Ls, tomorrow evening I'll probably put together a little recap of today/tomorrow's meetings to give you a sense of what's going on, so check back.

Thank you!

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:28 pm

Employment, rankings, blah blah blah. When are we going to know the important stuff: What kind of pizza are they going to serve?

I mean, sure, it's probably dominoes, but for a special event like this I'm cautiously optimistic that we get some Imos up in that bitch or something.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:30 pm

Birdnals wrote:Employment, rankings, blah blah blah. When are we going to know the important stuff: What kind of pizza are they going to serve?

I mean, sure, it's probably dominoes, but for a special event like this I'm cautiously optimistic that we get some Imos up in that bitch or something.

The dean did mention they've instituted some cost-saving measures, so I'm hoping they went bulk and just got a bunch of Pointersauruses.

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Birdnals wrote:Employment, rankings, blah blah blah. When are we going to know the important stuff: What kind of pizza are they going to serve?

I mean, sure, it's probably dominoes, but for a special event like this I'm cautiously optimistic that we get some Imos up in that bitch or something.

The dean did mention they've instituted some cost-saving measures, so I'm hoping they went bulk and just got a bunch of Pointersauruses.

I'd be fine with little caesars, but they should know that if this is done I will be shamelessly taking a whole pizza to-go.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:37 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:It's absolutely outrageous. But it's not like they're just storing the money away for a rainy day. They're finding ways to spend it. Usually on inflated professor's salaries.

I think that's the thing that most annoys me. It isn't a seller's market for academics right now. Most of these poor saps would gladly accept half of what they're being paid right now to avoid having to practice law. Everyone knows schools are on the verge of collapsing, and there are way more academic hopefuls than there are available positions. I can guarantee you that if we slashed WUSTL profs' salaries in half tomorrow, fewer than 5 would be angered enough to return to practice (if they were ever there). Shoot, most of them probably don't even have that option any more.

In the free market, you're supposed to pay people just enough to keep them in their jobs. But that obviously isn't happening in this screwed up system.


The university has a huge fucking endowment, and the law school has the same, especially when you count the $/student ratios. You would hope we'd be able to weather this storm better than our competitors.

I'm actually hoping that--in the midst of this $2.2 billion fundraising drive by the university--they actually try and pluck some more star professors from schools facing a budget pinch. Maybe schools like GULC/GWU, which are bloated and far more reliant on tuition $$ than endowment funds. If this is what they do with the money, I'm fine with tuition going up.

This is the kind of market you save up for to buy into.

I found this neat info, although it's kind of dated. Adjusted for cost of living and number of students, we had the fifth-largest endowment of any law school in the nation in 2000. Simply adjusted for class size alone, we still come in at 12th nationally. Not sure how much things have changed since then, but I doubt they're much different right now:

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... _scho.html

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:52 pm

Oh, and we're not dropping in the rankings. We're already due a huge bounce-back because of the employment statistics. The only thing that might mitigate that somewhat is the 2-point drop in LSAT. But most of our competitors had a 1-point drop, so that's probably not a huge deal. I'm guessing that, at worst, we're 21, and at best, we're back at 19.

People say the rankings don't matter, but they do make a difference. It's just that the effect isn't felt immediately due to 1 or 2-year fluctuations. I've heard multiple people industry talking about hiring from only the "top 20" schools or whatever. That doesn't mean a one year spike or drop is going to change people's minds, but people do form general impressions if you're around a certain rank for long enough.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:21 pm

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:24 pm

hoos89 wrote:
disco_stu wrote:I agree - is this "employed - professional" category new, and how is it different from "employed - JD advantage"?


My best guess is that JD-Advantage is the same as JD preferred. (ie. you don't need a JD but it helps)

I think that's right.

And employed-professional is probably someone doing a non-JD job. I think it could be anything from non-reputable (like working at Target) to a solid job (like a business field).

ETA: Maybe not. There's a "non-professional field" line, but no one from last year is in it. So I dunno.

lukertin
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lukertin » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:And employed-professional is probably someone doing a non-JD job. I think it could be anything from non-reputable (like working at Target) to a solid job (like a business field).

But what's the difference between a professional and a JD-advantage?

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:54 pm

lukertin wrote:
romothesavior wrote:And employed-professional is probably someone doing a non-JD job. I think it could be anything from non-reputable (like working at Target) to a solid job (like a business field).

But what's the difference between a professional and a JD-advantage?


I imagine working in banking or working in HR is professional, but not jd advantage?

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:02 pm

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Unoriginalist
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Unoriginalist » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:05 pm

romothesavior wrote:0Ls, tomorrow evening I'll probably put together a little recap of today/tomorrow's meetings to give you a sense of what's going on, so check back.


Thanks, romo. And thanks for the perspective one everything, all.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:55 pm

hoos89 wrote:Also I'm not so sure that Target counts as professional. Or at least it shouldn't but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if law schools counted it.

Yeah I don't think it is. I added an ETA above to say that there's a field for non-professional jobs. Apparently no one went on to a job like that.

My guess is things that don't require a JD but people often use them to get jobs there are included in JD-Advantage. For example, maybe consulting?

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:56 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


That surprises me that it's that high for c/o 2012. I know a fair amount of people in Biglaw in 2013, but I would have guessed maybe 1 in 5 at best. Of course, our class size is astronomical, so it's really hard to tell. But it's probably better than 2012.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:23 pm

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:28 pm

hoos89 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


That surprises me that it's that high for c/o 2012. I know a fair amount of people in Biglaw in 2013, but I would have guessed maybe 1 in 5 at best. Of course, our class size is astronomical, so it's really hard to tell. But it's probably better than 2012.


Out of curiosity, what WAS the Biglaw placement pre-recession? Anyone know?


I don't think it was ever any higher than 25-27%. WUSTL was just starting to benefit from its rise in the rankings when the recession ended that fun.

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hoos89
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby hoos89 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:44 pm

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:45 pm

hoos89 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:Pretty substantial increase in biglaw placement from c/o 2011. 17.7% to 23.3%


That surprises me that it's that high for c/o 2012. I know a fair amount of people in Biglaw in 2013, but I would have guessed maybe 1 in 5 at best. Of course, our class size is astronomical, so it's really hard to tell. But it's probably better than 2012.


Out of curiosity, what WAS the Biglaw placement pre-recession? Anyone know?


I think our best number was around 28%--with another 5% in Art III clerkships. Pretty close to top third and you're golden.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:51 pm

hoos89 wrote:Sooo does that mean we're almost back to where we were? Does that mean I can't say ITE anymore, and that me not having a job is MY FAULT?!


Keep in mind that we're comparing different numbers. The numbers before the crash were NLJ 250. The numbers we're looking at now are the ABA's numbers, which include NLJ 350 firms and even more (firms with 100+ lawyers). They also cover large, foreign-based firms. 23 graduates of this class were employed overseas. To what extent those were foreign-based Biglaw, I have no idea.

If you take this into account, the golden years were probably a bit better than 28%...closer to 30% or 35% with clerkships added. Then maybe another 5% who either got good BigGov jobs or prestigious plaintiff/PI gigs.

You could still get median-pwned in the golden years, though. I know a guy that did doc review at median who graduated in like '07. He eventually lateraled into local biglaw, though, through the help of a professor he stayed in touch with.

rad lulz
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby rad lulz » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:57 pm

lol @ raising tuition

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:40 pm

The whole freaking problem with this system is embodied by the first dude stepping up and asking about our stupid ranking. Appropriately, the dean answered basically by saying that they're focusing on what actually matters, which is jobs.

As much as we properly pillory the stupid us news rankings, schools care about them because students care about them.




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