WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:17 am

elderpisimo wrote:I am only on page 46 of this thread so I apologize if this question has already been answered, but which supplements would WUSTL'ers recommend to a 0L gunner seeking to prep for 1L fall courses (which I believe are Contracts, Property, and Torts).

I am aware of the pro's and con's of this type of 0L prep, please don't waste good advice trying to guide me in a new direction. Thanks in advance.


Just don't. Enjoy the last summer before the end of you social life because, if you are as gunner-ish as you've described, you will not have one at all when school starts.

I would recommend you study how to network, how to be likable, how to cook great meals, and how to stay in shape when you don't have a lot of time. If you, an über gunner, do these things, I promise you will thank me. I can't change your nature but I can encourage you to focus your neuroses in the right direction for now.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby elderpisimo » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:36 am

To say that there are no pros to such 0L prep work seems extremely close minded. Luckily, I have read enough guides on TLS to realize that this is a polarizing topic and not feel discouraged by these comments. The biggest pro to all of this 0L prep work is to simply train myself to have a better work ethic and sustain large amounts of reading. My professor's notes will take priority over everything.

I have read most of the guides on TLS, but thanks for the link Birdnals. I practice networking, socializing, and I take care of my body, you could even say I'm a "bro". I wouldn't call myself a typical gunner, and I'm sure I'll let go off the gas pedal slightly, but currently I would really appreciate an opportunity to over-prepare.

You're right in saying I could find E&E, hornbooks, and supplement suggestions in other threads. I came here because I plan on attending WUSTL, I find the opinions in this thread highly valuable, and wanted to benefit from your input.

If the best advice is to wait until I get my professors and come back, then thank you, I will definitely do that. However in the meantime, I would still like to find a nice reading companion.

EDIT: I'm currently improving my typing speed, I'm only at 45wpm and would like to get in the 70wpm range.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:58 am

I agree with what has been posted above. Substantive studying pre-law school is not worth it. You sound like you already know what people think about this, so I'm curious as to why you're pressing the issue so hard in a thread full of people who disagree with the approach. We have some very smart and very successful law students ITT and around TLS, and the consensus among the overwhelming majority is don't do substantive prep. There are a few people who say it helped them and maybe you'll find a few who speak up, but I think Birdnals identified what this is: a placebo effect of sorts, a false feeling that you're getting a leg up.

IMO, the cons vastly outweigh the the pros. I don't really see any pros. Why? Because almost everyone is going to have a basic command of the material on test day, and most of the people in the top half are going to have a great command of it. Extra time on the front end will give you no advantage because everyone is going to catch up to you. Your approach can serve as a disadvantage because you have no idea what you're doing.

You want to feel productive before starting law school? Here are some ideas:

1. NETWORK. I know we 3Ls are probably tired of hearing the networking mantra from CSO by now, but early on in your law school career (and even pre-law school) is when you can start to set the foundation for great contacts. By 3L year you are presumed to know the basics of the legal industry, but you can play the "somewhat informed, very eager to learn 0L/1L" card before then. I made some great contacts before I started law school that really helped me out. This would be far more helpful than reading Cherminsky or something.

2. Getting to Maybe/LEEWS. They weren't really my cup of tea, but I know some people in the very tip top of our classes who swear by LEEWS, and GTM gives a decent overview of how to take a law school exam. If you want to read before law school, reading some of these "how to win law school" books is a far better use of your time than substantive work.

3. Have fun. Law school, especially 1L year, can suck at times. Enjoy yourself before it starts.

If you're looking for "how to do exactly what all of you are telling me not to do," then you may be in the wrong thread. Perhaps someone ITT feels differently about pre-LS prep and can advise you on what they did, but I think you may just want to go look into the most popular supplements and read them if that's what you're inclined to do.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby elderpisimo » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:16 pm

Thanks for the advice Romo, I have read GTM but I will purchase LEEWS and go through it.

I apologize if I came of as stubborn, I respect the opinions of everyone in this thread and won't simply disregard them. The supplement as 0L prep idea won me over after I saw it mentioned by a few people who finished #1, but if WUSTL'ers are so sure that it will give me no advantage then I will let it go.

EDIT: Reading the posts of some very smart people in this thread who didn't do as well as they hoped during their 1L year made me slightly paranoid and ipushed me to consider the supplement regimen.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:30 pm

elderpisimo wrote:Thanks for the advice Romo, I have read GTM but I will purchase LEEWS and go through it.

I apologize if I came of as stubborn, I respect the opinions of everyone in this thread and won't simply disregard them. The supplement as 0L prep idea won me over after I saw it mentioned by a few people who finished #1, but if WUSTL'ers are so sure that it will give me no advantage then I will let it go.

EDIT: Reading the posts of some very smart people in this thread who didn't do as well as they hoped during their 1L year made me slightly paranoid and ipushed me to consider the supplement regimen.

There may be some who say it is helpful. I don't mean to speak for everyone. But after 3.5 years on TLS and 2.5 in law school, I definitely don't think it is worth it, and I know the vast majority don't either.

If you are deadset on it (this is NOT an endorsement of pre-LS prep), I would read the supplements that are designed for "easy reading," and just read them for general understanding. Skimming through Chemerinsky or Chirelstein would be a lot less potentially harmful (and far less psychotic) than doing an entire Civ Pro E&E or something. But even still, it could end being a colossal waste. Not everyone covers the same material. Although it is a very helpful book, I think less than 10% of Chemerinsky was even relevant to my Con Law class.

Its just not worth it IMO.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby elderpisimo » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:40 pm

I've now been successfully persuaded against reading any supplements. Ask me how it feels to make a complete 180.

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Birdnals
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Birdnals » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:49 pm

elderpisimo wrote:I've now been successfully persuaded against reading any supplements. Ask me how it feels to make a complete 180.

Ha, good to hear. There are still things you can be doing though like romo mentioned. Improving typing speed is a great use of time IMO, especially if you have a boring desk job this summer. This site is what I used to make improving typing speed more fun. http://play.typeracer.com/

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby elderpisimo » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:16 pm

I actually just installed Mavis Beacon and Typing Master, but I really like that typeracer site. I will use it later, it should be more fun to challenge others when I'm a little good at it lol.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:59 pm

Birdnals wrote:
elderpisimo wrote:I've now been successfully persuaded against reading any supplements. Ask me how it feels to make a complete 180.

Ha, good to hear. There are still things you can be doing though like romo mentioned. Improving typing speed is a great use of time IMO, especially if you have a boring desk job this summer. This site is what I used to make improving typing speed more fun. http://play.typeracer.com/


THISTHISTHIS

If I could redo anything, it'd be getting my typing speed up. When people can double what you type, it can really hurt. Obviously it's not a substitute for being able to take exams...but I know of at least one exam where I was negatively affected due to my average typing ability (and inability to let small mistakes go).

Randomnumbers
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Randomnumbers » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:30 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
elderpisimo wrote:I've now been successfully persuaded against reading any supplements. Ask me how it feels to make a complete 180.

Ha, good to hear. There are still things you can be doing though like romo mentioned. Improving typing speed is a great use of time IMO, especially if you have a boring desk job this summer. This site is what I used to make improving typing speed more fun. http://play.typeracer.com/


THISTHISTHIS

If I could redo anything, it'd be getting my typing speed up. When people can double what you type, it can really hurt. Obviously it's not a substitute for being able to take exams...but I know of at least one exam where I was negatively affected due to my average typing ability (and inability to let small mistakes go).


I'm just a lowly 1L and can't speak to the success of anything (grades take forever), but I know that many people are finishing with more then 40 wpm actually typed in a 3 hour exam. I came in at just about 40 WPM in torts, and I know of people that typed significantly more than I. Typing only 45 WPM seems like it would be a serious hindrance - you'd have to be typing as fast as you could, non stop, in order to keep up with the wordcount of those in your class who can type 100+ wpm. And while wordcount isn't the end all be all of issue spotter horse races, you get points for applying law to fact. You can apply a hell of a lot more law to fact in 7500 words than 4000.

As far as 0L reading goes (even with my snarky comments earlier), the truth of the matter is that the reading of supplements doesn't hurt. What I have concerns with is your stated goal of training yourself to have a better work ethic and sustain large amounts of reading. Relax. You want to be peaking coming into finals, not at the tail end of a year long drudge. I read the E&E's, GTM, 1L, Chemerinsky, and a bunch of other books coming as a 0L. It didn't hurt - but I wasn't slogging through, trying to maintain a work ethic. I just read them casually, in down time, in lieu of other reading. I think the main advantage to doing the supplements as a 0L is that it simply reduces your workload during the first few months a bit. You have a slightly easier time putting things into context, seeing the forest, and any reading reductions pre mid november are a good thing.

Obvious disclaimer: 1L with no grades back. For all you know I'm a complete retard in the bottom 10% of my class.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lukertin » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:Skimming through Chemerinsky or Chirelstein would be a lot less potentially harmful (and far less psychotic) than doing an entire Civ Pro E&E or something. But even still, it could end being a colossal waste. Not everyone covers the same material. Although it is a very helpful book, I think less than 10% of Chemerinsky was even relevant to my Con Law class.


LMAO. I remember someone getting coldcalled in Con Law. He sat there for about 5 seconds, speechless, then began reading Chemerinsky verbatim. The professor acted like the kid was vomiting gold and silver.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:14 pm

+1 on the typing speed thing, I forgot I did that before law school too. It was a big help.

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goldeneye
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby goldeneye » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:00 pm

.
Last edited by goldeneye on Thu May 09, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:12 pm

goldeneye wrote:best supplement recommendations for Civ Pro (Holland-blumoff), Contracts (degeest) and Crim Law with Kim?


If he runs the class the same way he did last year, he'll actually assign you a supplement (this one: http://www.amazon.com/Acing-Contracts-Law-School/dp/0314171711); you'll spend the first month or so of class reading through the supplement, which is the black letter law, and his lecture will track that and mostly focus on policy.

I think the mistake a lot of people made in that class was losing track of that supplement after the first month. After that, you have to start reading 3-4 cases per day, and you can get lost in the typical morass of irrelevant material. He views the cases only as illustrative. But key caveat, his test contained a section where you had to identify 5 of the cases by name based on their facts. So you need at least a cursory understanding of all the cases.

Just stay focused on the BLL. Like almost all exams, his is an issue spotter. There was one policy question, so you need to know that, too.

And he means it when he says he'll reward good participation. For the small price of mistakenly leading my section to believe I was a gunner (volunteered pretty much every day), I was given 3 extra points. Which is clearly huge.

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RoseVI
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RoseVI » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:26 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
goldeneye wrote:best supplement recommendations for Civ Pro (Holland-blumoff), Contracts (degeest) and Crim Law with Kim?


If he runs the class the same way he did last year, he'll actually assign you a supplement (this one: http://www.amazon.com/Acing-Contracts-Law-School/dp/0314171711); you'll spend the first month or so of class reading through the supplement, which is the black letter law, and his lecture will track that and mostly focus on policy.

I think the mistake a lot of people made in that class was losing track of that supplement after the first month. After that, you have to start reading 3-4 cases per day, and you can get lost in the typical morass of irrelevant material. He views the cases only as illustrative. But key caveat, his test contained a section where you had to identify 5 of the cases by name based on their facts. So you need at least a cursory understanding of all the cases.

Just stay focused on the BLL. Like almost all exams, his is an issue spotter. There was one policy question, so you need to know that, too.

And he means it when he says he'll reward good participation. For the small price of mistakenly leading my section to believe I was a gunner (volunteered pretty much every day), I was given 3 extra points. Which is clearly huge.


Also big with DeGeest is phrasing things exactly as he wants them. Even if you understand concepts and everything he says, if you don't say it the way he has it in his head, he'll think it's wrong.

+1 to participation, though. It definitely saved me in that class.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:08 pm

RoseVI wrote:
TatteredDignity wrote:
goldeneye wrote:best supplement recommendations for Civ Pro (Holland-blumoff), Contracts (degeest) and Crim Law with Kim?


If he runs the class the same way he did last year, he'll actually assign you a supplement (this one: http://www.amazon.com/Acing-Contracts-Law-School/dp/0314171711); you'll spend the first month or so of class reading through the supplement, which is the black letter law, and his lecture will track that and mostly focus on policy.

I think the mistake a lot of people made in that class was losing track of that supplement after the first month. After that, you have to start reading 3-4 cases per day, and you can get lost in the typical morass of irrelevant material. He views the cases only as illustrative. But key caveat, his test contained a section where you had to identify 5 of the cases by name based on their facts. So you need at least a cursory understanding of all the cases.

Just stay focused on the BLL. Like almost all exams, his is an issue spotter. There was one policy question, so you need to know that, too.

And he means it when he says he'll reward good participation. For the small price of mistakenly leading my section to believe I was a gunner (volunteered pretty much every day), I was given 3 extra points. Which is clearly huge.


Also big with DeGeest is phrasing things exactly as he wants them. Even if you understand concepts and everything he says, if you don't say it the way he has it in his head, he'll think it's wrong.


Lol, yes.

You: "I think this result could be explained by the fact that the promisor had a lower cost of gathering that information."

De Geest: "Well..... not exactly, no. Sorry."

Me: "However, it's also true that the promisor was the least cost information gatherer."

De Geest: "Yes, exactly."

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Michael Bluth
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Michael Bluth » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:14 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
And he means it when he says he'll reward good participation. For the small price of mistakenly leading my section to believe I was a gunner (volunteered pretty much every day), I was given 3 extra points. Which is clearly huge.


Yeah, you only led your section to believe you were a gunner. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... All I'm saying is that some students were swigging whiskey and coke while others were shining up an apple for teacher. :wink:

Chirelstein's supplement with the boat on the front is helpful, too. You can get it super cheap on Amazon. A nice part about his class is that his cold calls are super low-stress. If you screw up he'll just grin and say no and move to someone else. It's not as intense as, say, Drobak's disappointed father routine.

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RoseVI
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby RoseVI » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:22 pm

Michael Bluth wrote: A nice part about his class is that his cold calls are super low-stress. If you screw up he'll just grin and say no "ya ya ya" and move to someone else. It's not as intense as, say, Drobak's disappointed father routine.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:22 pm

Michael Bluth wrote:
TatteredDignity wrote:
And he means it when he says he'll reward good participation. For the small price of mistakenly leading my section to believe I was a gunner (volunteered pretty much every day), I was given 3 extra points. Which is clearly huge.


Yeah, you only led your section to believe you were a gunner. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... All I'm saying is that some students were swigging whiskey and coke while others were shining up an apple for teacher. :wink:

Chirelstein's supplement with the boat on the front is helpful, too. You can get it super cheap on Amazon. A nice part about his class is that his cold calls are super low-stress. If you screw up he'll just grin and say no and move to someone else. It's not as intense as, say, Drobak's disappointed father routine.


*Applauds* That is the perfect description of what he does.

Not even going to dignify your other trolling with a response.

Edit: can't help myself. I meant the kind of gunner who annoys everyone with his self-important and constant contributions, not the kind of gunner who tries really hard. Because that should be everybody. :-P

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Unagi
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Unagi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:07 pm

This semester I have La Pierre for Con Law, Osgood for Crim, and Hollander-Blumoff for Civ Pro. Any words of wisdom regarding preparation for their classes/ exams? Thanks in advance!

lukertin
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby lukertin » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:16 am

La Pierre has a very specific manner (basically going down a checklist) by which he wants you to address issues. he will go over this in class about every day, yet people somehow manage not to do this on the exam.

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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby Englander742 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:14 pm

I'm applying for a summer job which seems to care a lot about grades. I'm a little concerned that when I send an official transcript, they will just be confused about WUSTL's grades, since it sounds like the new system won't be reflected on transcripts yet. I can't put it on my resume, because I had to have the resume submitted before grades were out.

Does WUSTL include class rank on their official transcripts? Or anything similar? I want to make sure they know what my grades actually mean.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:24 pm

Englander742 wrote:I'm applying for a summer job which seems to care a lot about grades. I'm a little concerned that when I send an official transcript, they will just be confused about WUSTL's grades, since it sounds like the new system won't be reflected on transcripts yet. I can't put it on my resume, because I had to have the resume submitted before grades were out.

Does WUSTL include class rank on their official transcripts? Or anything similar? I want to make sure they know what my grades actually mean.


The registrar will send out a %ile table detailing the GPA cutoffs for 5, 10, 15, 20, and 33% after all the grades are in for the class...and AFAIK % cutoffs are not included on transcripts. Of course, I've never sent out an official transcript- just an unofficial one. You can always send a link to the registrar's explanation if someone asks for more detail, but I believe the new system will be in place for this semester's grades, no?

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:48 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:
Englander742 wrote:I'm applying for a summer job which seems to care a lot about grades. I'm a little concerned that when I send an official transcript, they will just be confused about WUSTL's grades, since it sounds like the new system won't be reflected on transcripts yet. I can't put it on my resume, because I had to have the resume submitted before grades were out.

Does WUSTL include class rank on their official transcripts? Or anything similar? I want to make sure they know what my grades actually mean.


The registrar will send out a %ile table detailing the GPA cutoffs for 5, 10, 15, 20, and 33% after all the grades are in for the class...and AFAIK % cutoffs are not included on transcripts. Of course, I've never sent out an official transcript- just an unofficial one. You can always send a link to the registrar's explanation if someone asks for more detail, but I believe the new system will be in place for this semester's grades, no?


it's supposed to be in place for this semester's grades.
BUT if it's not, just send your grades with an approx of what percentile you stand at in the class in accord. with the cutoffs that were mentioned above.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 3L (and others) Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:17 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
elderpisimo wrote:I've now been successfully persuaded against reading any supplements. Ask me how it feels to make a complete 180.

Ha, good to hear. There are still things you can be doing though like romo mentioned. Improving typing speed is a great use of time IMO, especially if you have a boring desk job this summer. This site is what I used to make improving typing speed more fun. http://play.typeracer.com/


THISTHISTHIS

If I could redo anything, it'd be getting my typing speed up. When people can double what you type, it can really hurt. Obviously it's not a substitute for being able to take exams...but I know of at least one exam where I was negatively affected due to my average typing ability (and inability to let small mistakes go).


This is also one of my most annoying downfalls. If I mis-type something on an exam, I literally lose focus unless I go back and correct it. It really slows me down. It's like a neuroticism. I can't hand something in if I know there are typos on it. I can barely post something on the internet without going back and editing it for typos. It's one of the main reasons I couldn't get a job through OCI. Probably not a bad trait to have as an actual lawyer, though.




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