WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
nys
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby nys » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:31 pm

How important is it to be up to date on supplements? I'm thinking of getting Chemerinsky for Magarian, but unless it is really useful I don't want to spring for the 2012 version when older ones are way cheaper. Also, is examples and explanations useful for torts? (Tamanaha)

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fl0w
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby fl0w » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:20 pm

nys wrote:How important is it to be up to date on supplements? I'm thinking of getting Chemerinsky for Magarian, but unless it is really useful I don't want to spring for the 2012 version when older ones are way cheaper. Also, is examples and explanations useful for torts? (Tamanaha)


i think the old version of chemerinsky would be fine. e&e for torts is a good idea.

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soccerfreak
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby soccerfreak » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:31 pm

fl0w wrote:
nys wrote:How important is it to be up to date on supplements? I'm thinking of getting Chemerinsky for Magarian, but unless it is really useful I don't want to spring for the 2012 version when older ones are way cheaper. Also, is examples and explanations useful for torts? (Tamanaha)


i think the old version of chemerinsky would be fine. e&e for torts is a good idea.

For Torts, you need practice exams. Get ahold of all of Tamanaha's old ones you can find (I can actually give you some, PM if you want them). There's not really much law you need to know/understand, so in supplements you want fact patterns to practice. If the E&E has them, go for it.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:54 pm

nys wrote:How important is it to be up to date on supplements? I'm thinking of getting Chemerinsky for Magarian, but unless it is really useful I don't want to spring for the 2012 version when older ones are way cheaper. Also, is examples and explanations useful for torts? (Tamanaha)


I actually think magarian recommended the previous chemerinsky edition in his syllabus last year...and if there ever was a required supplement for a class, that would be the one.

stolli
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby stolli » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:34 pm

fl0w wrote:
stolli wrote:anybody have any pro tips for mcmanis's copyright?

Im an idiot for taking this class but now i need to get through it.


duno if you took his TM class but McManis is tough. He's a good teacher, but he expects a hell of a lot.

Every point that he makes in class, you're going to want to commit that to memory come exam time. In addition to him expecting you to be very prepared for class, you also have to take very good notes on his salient points during class to perform well on the final.

Never forget to consult the statute first before looking at what a case says. Don't suffer from what he calls "common law-itis"


I guess i should start paying attention in class then.....i just feel like his teaching style does more to confuse the hell out of everybody then anything

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michaelm55
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby michaelm55 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:27 pm

I would just like to note some employment statistics I came across. According to the ABA employment statistics page (employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org) for 2011, one can generate a ratio that is very telling of particular schools, their prestige, and access to legal markets... as of 2011. You simply divide the number of graduates from a particular school that had full-time, long-term, bar-requiring employment by the number of total graduates from that year's class. You end up with a percentage that tells you how many graduates had "real" legal jobs (either within 9 months of graduation or upon graduation... it doesn't indicate which of the two). Let's take an example: Boston College's graduating class of 2011 had 195 college graduates with full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. The total number of graduates was 285. Divide 195 by 285 and we arrive at 68.4%: the graduate employment ratio (as I like to call it) for this institution. Now, lets compare some law schools:

Washington U St. Louis = 59.3%

Vanderbuilt = 73.7%

Cornell = 76.1%

Alabama = 78%

Iowa = 69.9%

George Washington = 81.2%

Indiana-Bloomington = 63.6%


What does all this mean? It does not mean that the salaries after graduation are the same. It does not mean the educational quality is better or worse. It does, however, indicate that whatever variables might be involved, the employment prospects between schools like WUSL and similarly ranked schools, like GW, are simply nothing alike. In terms of employment, choosing which school to attend is not just a matter of geographic preference, but also one of employment viability (whether you end up with a job at all). For example, 21.9% more of GW law 2011 graduates had real, legal jobs (at least within 9 months) than the 2011 WUSL graduates did.

Another way to look at it is this: these school graduate employment ratios may also indicate where in your class you need to be to end up with a job. At GW (assuming that the higher ranked students achieve employment because of their class rank - a general hypothesis that need not always be true to hold overall - you would need to be approximately at the bottom 19% of your class to graduate without a job. At WUSL, you would be in equally dire straights if you were in the bottom 40% of your class. There exists much less margin for error.

There are still a couple of questions I don't have in from the ABA yet, namely, whether these statistics represent roughly all graduates involved, or only those that reported back, as well as the timeline involved between graduation and employment. Thank you guys, and good luck!

P.S. I was looking into WUSL myself, being a MO resident, but opted against it because of these numbers. Employment, to me, is no. 1

Paul Campos
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Paul Campos » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:35 pm

michaelm55 wrote:I would just like to note some employment statistics I came across. According to the ABA employment statistics page (employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org) for 2011, one can generate a ratio that is very telling of particular schools, their prestige, and access to legal markets... as of 2011. You simply divide the number of graduates from a particular school that had full-time, long-term, bar-requiring employment by the number of total graduates from that year's class. You end up with a percentage that tells you how many graduates had "real" legal jobs (either within 9 months of graduation or upon graduation... it doesn't indicate which of the two). Let's take an example: Boston College's graduating class of 2011 had 195 college graduates with full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. The total number of graduates was 285. Divide 195 by 285 and we arrive at 68.4%: the graduate employment ratio (as I like to call it) for this institution. Now, lets compare some law schools:

Washington U St. Louis = 59.3%

Vanderbuilt = 73.7%

Cornell = 76.1%

Alabama = 78%

Iowa = 69.9%

George Washington = 81.2%

Indiana-Bloomington = 63.6%


What does all this mean? It does not mean that the salaries after graduation are the same. It does not mean the educational quality is better or worse. It does, however, indicate that whatever variables might be involved, the employment prospects between schools like WUSL and similarly ranked schools, like GW, are simply nothing alike. In terms of employment, choosing which school to attend is not just a matter of geographic preference, but also one of employment viability (whether you end up with a job at all). For example, 21.9% more of GW law 2011 graduates had real, legal jobs (at least within 9 months) than the 2011 WUSL graduates did.

Another way to look at it is this: these school graduate employment ratios may also indicate where in your class you need to be to end up with a job. At GW (assuming that the higher ranked students achieve employment because of their class rank - a general hypothesis that need not always be true to hold overall - you would need to be approximately at the bottom 19% of your class to graduate without a job. At WUSL, you would be in equally dire straights if you were in the bottom 40% of your class. There exists much less margin for error.

There are still a couple of questions I don't have in from the ABA yet, namely, whether these statistics represent roughly all graduates involved, or only those that reported back, as well as the timeline involved between graduation and employment. Thank you guys, and good luck!

P.S. I was looking into WUSL myself, being a MO resident, but opted against it because of these numbers. Employment, to me, is no. 1


The ABA stats for GW include as "long-term" full time employment requiring bar admission no less than 80 temporary low-wage ($15 per hour) law school funded jobs that last one year at most. That's 15% of the class. Take those away and GW's stats look pretty much exactly like WUSTL's.

As of yesterday, 114 (21%) of GW's 2012 graduates were in these temporary law school funded jobs.

lukertin
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby lukertin » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 pm

Paul Campos wrote:The ABA stats for GW include as "long-term" full time employment requiring bar admission no less than 80 temporary low-wage ($15 per hour) law school funded jobs that last one year at most. That's 15% of the class. Take those away and GW's stats look pretty much exactly like WUSTL's.

As of yesterday, 114 (21%) of GW's 2012 graduates were in these temporary law school funded jobs.

However true that may be, it doesn't change the fact that the employment prospects suck

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TheThriller
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TheThriller » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:00 pm

michaelm55 wrote:I would just like to note some employment statistics I came across. According to the ABA employment statistics page (employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org) for 2011, one can generate a ratio that is very telling of particular schools, their prestige, and access to legal markets... as of 2011. You simply divide the number of graduates from a particular school that had full-time, long-term, bar-requiring employment by the number of total graduates from that year's class. You end up with a percentage that tells you how many graduates had "real" legal jobs (either within 9 months of graduation or upon graduation... it doesn't indicate which of the two). Let's take an example: Boston College's graduating class of 2011 had 195 college graduates with full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. The total number of graduates was 285. Divide 195 by 285 and we arrive at 68.4%: the graduate employment ratio (as I like to call it) for this institution. Now, lets compare some law schools:

Washington U St. Louis = 59.3%

Vanderbuilt = 73.7%

Cornell = 76.1%

Alabama = 78%

Iowa = 69.9%

George Washington = 81.2%

Indiana-Bloomington = 63.6%


What does all this mean? It does not mean that the salaries after graduation are the same. It does not mean the educational quality is better or worse. It does, however, indicate that whatever variables might be involved, the employment prospects between schools like WUSL and similarly ranked schools, like GW, are simply nothing alike. In terms of employment, choosing which school to attend is not just a matter of geographic preference, but also one of employment viability (whether you end up with a job at all). For example, 21.9% more of GW law 2011 graduates had real, legal jobs (at least within 9 months) than the 2011 WUSL graduates did.

Another way to look at it is this: these school graduate employment ratios may also indicate where in your class you need to be to end up with a job. At GW (assuming that the higher ranked students achieve employment because of their class rank - a general hypothesis that need not always be true to hold overall - you would need to be approximately at the bottom 19% of your class to graduate without a job. At WUSL, you would be in equally dire straights if you were in the bottom 40% of your class. There exists much less margin for error.

There are still a couple of questions I don't have in from the ABA yet, namely, whether these statistics represent roughly all graduates involved, or only those that reported back, as well as the timeline involved between graduation and employment. Thank you guys, and good luck!

P.S. I was looking into WUSL myself, being a MO resident, but opted against it because of these numbers. Employment, to me, is no. 1


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194902

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Oban
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Oban » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:03 pm

Law school was a bad investment for a significant chunk of the people who enrolled at WUSTL. Although IBR(if it last longer than the next few congresses) + inflation means at the end of the day the cost dollar is mostly monopoly money, law school will still have lasting implications for those who miss the miglaw/biggov/biginhouse boat, like debt levels that preclude you from qualifying for mortgages, car loans, etc. The "taint" of having a JD but not being a practicing lawyer (viewed as being a failure or not motivated even though thats not really true in most cases), sunk time in law school when you could have done something better (though this is kind of illusory, most people haven't fared much better in the modern service economy sans JD), increased stress, cynicism, apathy, emotional issues, substance abuse, weight gain, decline of health, etc.

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cahwc12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:36 pm

Oban wrote:Law school was a bad investment for a significant chunk of the people who enrolled at WUSTL. Although IBR(if it last longer than the next few congresses) + inflation means at the end of the day the cost dollar is mostly monopoly money, law school will still have lasting implications for those who miss the miglaw/biggov/biginhouse boat, like debt levels that preclude you from qualifying for mortgages, car loans, etc. The "taint" of having a JD but not being a practicing lawyer (viewed as being a failure or not motivated even though thats not really true in most cases), sunk time in law school when you could have done something better (though this is kind of illusory, most people haven't fared much better in the modern service economy sans JD), increased stress, cynicism, apathy, emotional issues, substance abuse, weight gain, decline of health, etc.


Would you say it's still a bad investment for 75% tuition scholarship? If my LSAT score doesn't improve in October (I really expect to get much higher) I'm probably looking at 75% WUSTL and it seems like a good investment to me....

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:13 pm

michaelm55 wrote:I would just like to note some employment statistics I came across. According to the ABA employment statistics page (employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org) for 2011, one can generate a ratio that is very telling of particular schools, their prestige, and access to legal markets... as of 2011. You simply divide the number of graduates from a particular school that had full-time, long-term, bar-requiring employment by the number of total graduates from that year's class. You end up with a percentage that tells you how many graduates had "real" legal jobs (either within 9 months of graduation or upon graduation... it doesn't indicate which of the two). Let's take an example: Boston College's graduating class of 2011 had 195 college graduates with full time, long term, bar passage required jobs. The total number of graduates was 285. Divide 195 by 285 and we arrive at 68.4%: the graduate employment ratio (as I like to call it) for this institution. Now, lets compare some law schools:

Washington U St. Louis = 59.3%

Vanderbuilt = 73.7%

Cornell = 76.1%

Alabama = 78%

Iowa = 69.9%

George Washington = 81.2%

Indiana-Bloomington = 63.6%


What does all this mean? It does not mean that the salaries after graduation are the same. It does not mean the educational quality is better or worse. It does, however, indicate that whatever variables might be involved, the employment prospects between schools like WUSL and similarly ranked schools, like GW, are simply nothing alike. In terms of employment, choosing which school to attend is not just a matter of geographic preference, but also one of employment viability (whether you end up with a job at all). For example, 21.9% more of GW law 2011 graduates had real, legal jobs (at least within 9 months) than the 2011 WUSL graduates did.

Another way to look at it is this: these school graduate employment ratios may also indicate where in your class you need to be to end up with a job. At GW (assuming that the higher ranked students achieve employment because of their class rank - a general hypothesis that need not always be true to hold overall - you would need to be approximately at the bottom 19% of your class to graduate without a job. At WUSL, you would be in equally dire straights if you were in the bottom 40% of your class. There exists much less margin for error.

There are still a couple of questions I don't have in from the ABA yet, namely, whether these statistics represent roughly all graduates involved, or only those that reported back, as well as the timeline involved between graduation and employment. Thank you guys, and good luck!

P.S. I was looking into WUSL myself, being a MO resident, but opted against it because of these numbers. Employment, to me, is no. 1


Setting aside the general silliness of most of this post, I just want to nitpick the bold. The idea that 60% WUSTL employment means you're fine if you're in the top 60% and you're hosed if you're below that is... misguided. At a school like WUSTL, if you're below top 1/3 and you get a job, you're getting it despite your grades, not because of them. Barring a truly disastrous GPA, there probably isn't much difference in job prospects from top 40% on down the rest of the class. And even that is generous, because it's entirely possible to strike out even in the top 20%.

Oban
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Oban » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:06 am

Bingo: There is no grade cut off that guarantees you a job. Sure people in the top 20 percent who aren't aspies mostly got jobs, but some people on law review struck out and some people at or below median got biglaw thanks to things like IPSECURE.

A lot of people painfully realized that outside of that top sliver of the class, most people are in the same boat, below median or top 40-30 percent. I think this is what has caused a lot of bitterness and depression in the classes. "You mean my top 35 percent GPA and secondary journal membership gives me the same prospects as someone below median? Why the fuck should I even try to care about grades anymore... etc."

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roaringeagle
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby roaringeagle » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:37 pm

Oban wrote:Bingo: There is no grade cut off that guarantees you a job. Sure people in the top 20 percent who aren't aspies mostly got jobs, but some people on law review struck out and some people at or below median got biglaw thanks to things like IPSECURE.

A lot of people painfully realized that outside of that top sliver of the class, most people are in the same boat, below median or top 40-30 percent. I think this is what has caused a lot of bitterness and depression in the classes. "You mean my top 35 percent GPA and secondary journal membership gives me the same prospects as someone below median? Why the fuck should I even try to care about grades anymore... etc."


Is that why everyone looks like lost sheep in the Crowder Courtyard? I feel kind of bad for you people. Wait a sec....I go to the same school as you. Fuck. :)

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:34 am

so...anyone have a good Block fed tax outline?

Wouldn't say no to a Badawi corp outline either.

/shameless

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cahwc12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:04 pm

I'm currently planning a road trip across the country and one possible route will take me through St. Louis, so if I go this way I would love to plan a visit to campus.

Can anyone recommend areas to visit, perhaps a class or professor to observe, people to talk to, anything?

Thanks.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:29 pm

cahwc12 wrote:I'm currently planning a road trip across the country and one possible route will take me through St. Louis, so if I go this way I would love to plan a visit to campus.

Can anyone recommend areas to visit, perhaps a class or professor to observe, people to talk to, anything?

Thanks.

Might be some good ideas here

As for visiting campus and talking to profs, etc., call the school. Generally a campus visit includes sitting in on a class and getting a tour.

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cahwc12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:13 pm

72 Hours in the Lou


:shock:


Thanks for that link though, highly useful... although that title is :shock: :shock:

lukertin
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby lukertin » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:20 pm

Non-rigorous surveying of the portability of a WashU J.D. (forget what the CSO tells you?):

As indicated by LinkedIn profile entries, the following data were collected regarding students who attended during the 2009 thru 2012 years (this includes graduates of the '9 to '12 classes, LLM students, and current students of '13 and '14 class, mostly '13 class--which may also account for summer associate classes.)

Altogether, I'm guessing approximately 1500 students have graced the floors of AB Hall between 2009 and 2012, so this would account for about a 66% response rate. However, one must also take into account that lawyers in major metro areas are probably more likely than not to have a linkedin account for networking purposes:

Out of approximately 1100 graduates/students,

506 students stayed in the St. Louis area,
81 are in NYC.
81 are in DC.
72 are in Chicago (pretty terrible portability to what you would consider to be the main market outside of StL)
60 are in California
20 are in Boston, which is equal to the number of students who ended up in Kansas City, MO.
30 are in Texas,
10 in Atlanta
22 are in China (Though I reckon 90% of that is the LLM class)

edit--just realized I can limit by graduation year, will post that information if people are interested.

nys
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby nys » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:05 pm

Are there any good Badawi outlines or old exams out there?

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acadec
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby acadec » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:09 am

.
Last edited by acadec on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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justonemoregame
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby justonemoregame » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:15 pm

Anyone attend the symposium on the future of legal ed. yesterday? Was it complete bullshit or just partial? Were there any speakers from schools who aren't generous with scholarships like WUSTL?

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RoseVI
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby RoseVI » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:24 pm

gotta love how the attendance sheets come out as soon as the ABA shows up

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:14 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Anyone attend the symposium on the future of legal ed. yesterday? Was it complete bullshit or just partial? Were there any speakers from schools who aren't generous with scholarships like WUSTL?


Campos gave a talk, so at least that segment wasn't total BS.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:14 pm

RoseVI wrote:gotta love how the attendance sheets come out as soon as the ABA shows up


I actually have more attendance sheets this semester than 1st semester last year.

Which is patently ridiculous.




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