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how does class participation play into your grades? Are the grades purely blind or do professors bump scores up or down? (I pose this question after seeing it on another thread, but am asking it specifically pertaining to WUSTL)

roaringeagle wrote:how does class participation play into your grades? Are the grades purely blind or do professors bump scores up or down? (I pose this question after seeing it on another thread, but am asking it specifically pertaining to WUSTL)

Exams are graded blindly, but many professors reserve the right to increase or decrease scores slightly on the basis of either participation or, in the case of decreasing, attendance. Whether they actually choose to do so isn't clear, because all we get is a number, and not a breakdown of how that happened. Some, like Prof. Crain for employment law, seem to keep track and take it seriously, others probably just include it in the syllabus.

I would assume adjustments, if any, are done by for instance a faculty assistant after the exams are graded, to ensure blindness until grades are submitted.

I just wanted to see if anyone had thought about WUSTL placement in Chicago, I know that Chicago is a very difficult market but was wondering what type of grades we are talking to get something decent 25 attorneys+ in the area with ties.

stratocophic wrote:

stolli wrote:CWE is nicer but also about twice as expensive as UCity. Parts of U city can be a little rough but as long as you arnt reckless about what you do you should be fine. im paying 550 for a 2 bedroom in ucity where i have friends that are paying 750 for a one bedroom....

Always cheaper per person for a 2br, man. A 1BR in the loop's still gonna be 700 with utilities, and there are places in the CWE like the Monticello or Park Plaza ( might have the name wrong, but it's park something) that run about the same price, or at least they did when I was looking. It was close enough $-wise that I chose based on being able to walk to school rather than price, though paying for campus parking and gas is something you have to factor in to get the real price difference.

That said, the Loop isn't all that bad. The safety stuff isn't a huge issue as long as you're smart about when and where you step north of Delmar. I made it through 2 years there unscathed and never felt unsafe, though I also wouldn't be anyone's first choice to jump because I'm a) poor and b) large.

To clarify, I am paying 550 for a 2 bedroom apartment TO MYSELF (its technically considered a 1br with an office, but the office is at least as big as the bedroom if not larger..whole apartment is 950 sqft). The niehghborhood isnt the nicest, but as somebody else in this thread stated, the police presence is good. There is pretty much always a cop parked on the corner of my street at night.

mrjohnsterman wrote:I just wanted to see if anyone had thought about WUSTL placement in Chicago, I know that Chicago is a very difficult market but was wondering what type of grades we are talking to get something decent 25 attorneys+ in the area with ties.

Good luck with that. Tons of people in our class had no luck in Chicago, even people with legitimate ties. If you are in the top 25 percent or so you will be competitive, but it will be no easy task. Your best bet is to try to use family/friends/connections/networking to get back to Chicago.

Oban wrote:

mrjohnsterman wrote:I just wanted to see if anyone had thought about WUSTL placement in Chicago, I know that Chicago is a very difficult market but was wondering what type of grades we are talking to get something decent 25 attorneys+ in the area with ties.

Good luck with that. Tons of people in our class had no luck in Chicago, even people with legitimate ties. If you are in the top 25 percent or so you will be competitive, but it will be no easy task. Your best bet is to try to use family/friends/connections/networking to get back to Chicago.

I'll go even farther with this. Top 25% is more or less the bare minimum unless you bring something special to the table or you are just incredibly lucky. Most people I know in the top 10-25% range with legit ties who bid Chicago got shut down hard. Chicago sucks in general, and WUSTL placement into Chicago is a joke considering it is our "top market."

roaringeagle wrote:how does class participation play into your grades? Are the grades purely blind or do professors bump scores up or down? (I pose this question after seeing it on another thread, but am asking it specifically pertaining to WUSTL)

I received a 3 point bump in one class and a 1 point bump in another. 3 points is a really big deal and can be the difference between median and top 5%. But, I doubt many professors give that many points.

romothesavior wrote:

Oban wrote:

mrjohnsterman wrote:I just wanted to see if anyone had thought about WUSTL placement in Chicago, I know that Chicago is a very difficult market but was wondering what type of grades we are talking to get something decent 25 attorneys+ in the area with ties.

Good luck with that. Tons of people in our class had no luck in Chicago, even people with legitimate ties. If you are in the top 25 percent or so you will be competitive, but it will be no easy task. Your best bet is to try to use family/friends/connections/networking to get back to Chicago.

I'll go even farther with this. Top 25% is more or less the bare minimum unless you bring something special to the table or you are just incredibly lucky. Most people I know in the top 10-25% range with legit ties who bid Chicago got shut down hard. Chicago sucks in general, and WUSTL placement into Chicago is a joke considering it is our "top market."

This doesn't pertain to me particularly, but what do you mean by legit ties? Like, someone big inside a firm who is willing to hook you up?

acadec wrote:This doesn't pertain to me particularly, but what do you mean by legit ties? Like, someone big inside a firm who is willing to hook you up?

Like from Chicago/Illinois.

romothesavior wrote:

acadec wrote:This doesn't pertain to me particularly, but what do you mean by legit ties? Like, someone big inside a firm who is willing to hook you up?

Like from Chicago/Illinois.

yeah. so you know what you're lookin at ... URM + IP-Secure + from chicago (know attys there own a home in the city worked there for 5yrs before law school) and got shut out of chicago for 1L summer. More luck 2L summer but chose elsewhere. The chicago market is just unbelievably tough.

That being said, I have a handfull (literally less than 5) buddies there this summer.
I agree w/ romo. top 25% minimum. Top 10% competitive if you got the right "other stuff."

romothesavior wrote:

Oban wrote:

mrjohnsterman wrote:I just wanted to see if anyone had thought about WUSTL placement in Chicago, I know that Chicago is a very difficult market but was wondering what type of grades we are talking to get something decent 25 attorneys+ in the area with ties.

Good luck with that. Tons of people in our class had no luck in Chicago, even people with legitimate ties. If you are in the top 25 percent or so you will be competitive, but it will be no easy task. Your best bet is to try to use family/friends/connections/networking to get back to Chicago.

I'll go even farther with this. Top 25% is more or less the bare minimum unless you bring something special to the table or you are just incredibly lucky. Most people I know in the top 10-25% range with legit ties who bid Chicago got shut down hard. Chicago sucks in general, and WUSTL placement into Chicago is a joke considering it is our "top market."

Yeah calling Chicago our top market is a pretty big joke, at least it was my year. I know maybe 5 or 6 people going Chicago biglaw, maybe 10-15 people going to the city for anything at all. It was absolutely brutal. I know of a lot more people going to NY biglaw, probably strictly because of how many more opportunities are available there.

Seems like it rallied a little for C/O 2013, might even more by C/O 2014/15, but WUSTL just doesn't place in Chicago like you might expect.

Honestly I don't think WUSTL has a "city."

St. Louis wont seriously consider you unless you have like 5 kids and a mortgage and are married to the Mayor's cousin.

Kansas City, takes like 2 kids from WUSTL a year or something

Chicago wont take you unless you have amazing grades and get lucky

Any advice on the off-campus interview programs? Are they useful? Should I be doing every single one I have time for?

soccerfreak wrote:Any advice on the off-campus interview programs? Are they useful? Should I be doing every single one I have time for?

Depends on the market I think. For example, the california ones are horrible and I skipped even though it was my target market. I've heard people had better luck in NY-DC

DC kind of sucked, too. I was working out there last summer, so it would have been very convenient for me. But there were only like 4-5 legit firms and they all wanted like top 15% or IP or something like that. There were a few government agencies that wanted top third, but none in the field I wanted to do. Needless to say, I didn't get an interview.

The NYC one seemed to have a healthy amount, though. But I'm sure it's also the most competitive.

That's interesting, because California is the one I had circled on my calendar to go to. I haven't seen which firms are there though.

NYC is during PLIP, so that's out.

fl0w wrote:

soccerfreak wrote:Any advice on the off-campus interview programs? Are they useful? Should I be doing every single one I have time for?

Depends on the market I think. For example, the california ones are horrible and I skipped even though it was my target market. I've heard people had better luck in NY-DC

What makes the California ones horrible? Is it like the situation JCougar describes in DC?

Speaking of which, JCougar, what was up with the non-legit ones? Like, they weren't really planning on hiring, or they advertise on the backs of buses, or what?

From what I can tell, now that I can access the symplicity site, there just aren't many firms. There are 6 bidding options for California, and two are just different offices of the same firm.

Definitely more options for the DC one, although half of those are New York firms.

Ubermaus wrote:

fl0w wrote:

soccerfreak wrote:Any advice on the off-campus interview programs? Are they useful? Should I be doing every single one I have time for?

Depends on the market I think. For example, the california ones are horrible and I skipped even though it was my target market. I've heard people had better luck in NY-DC

What makes the California ones horrible? Is it like the situation JCougar describes in DC?

Speaking of which, JCougar, what was up with the non-legit ones? Like, they weren't really planning on hiring, or they advertise on the backs of buses, or what?

I was being a bit loose with words. Fl0w will want to hurt me, but I don't have a hard science undergrad, so IP firms that want a hard science undergrad aren't "legit."

But for real, there were only like 5-6 law firms (half of which were IP), and another 4-5 government agencies with specialties that I had no interest in. Not much selection. Kind of looks like 3L OCI. About 12 firms or so...seems like about 8 of them are IP. In other words, IPsecure is a great way to go. Wish I would have never changed my major from physics. I can do math in my sleep. I'd almost surely have IP biglaw at this point.

JCougar wrote: I was being a bit loose with words. Fl0w will want to hurt me, but I don't have a hard science undergrad, so IP firms that want a hard science undergrad aren't "legit."

ass

JCougar wrote: IPsecure is a great way to go.

QFMFT

But yes, the problem with Cal was no firm selection. Come out here and do an IP fair or a diversity fair where firms actually show up. The Bay Area Diversity Fair is one of the fairs that seemed to give people the most offers last year from friends that I've spoken to in the area.

fl0w wrote: But yes, the problem with Cal was no firm selection. Come out here and do an IP fair or a diversity fair where firms actually show up. The Bay Area Diversity Fair is one of the fairs that seemed to give people the most offers last year from friends that I've spoken to in the area.

What if I am the opposite of diverse?

soccerfreak wrote:

fl0w wrote: But yes, the problem with Cal was no firm selection. Come out here and do an IP fair or a diversity fair where firms actually show up. The Bay Area Diversity Fair is one of the fairs that seemed to give people the most offers last year from friends that I've spoken to in the area.

What if I am the opposite of diverse?

Depends on how shameless you are. No minority fair is allowed to exclude "non-minorities". You just have to understand that they didn't necessarily come to the fair to see non-minorities and you might get weird looks from both interviewers and from fellow candidates. That being said, I do know some non-diverse people that have gone to minority fairs and done well.

They just had to deal with

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Looking at the firms in symplicity and trying to figure out a strategy. A lot of these have little blurbs of info and links to their uninformative websites. I've heard people mention Chambers a lot. I'm not in STL this summer, so I can't just go to school and read what they have there. Should I buy a copy, or is there some way for me to access it online?

Kabuo wrote:Looking at the firms in symplicity and trying to figure out a strategy. A lot of these have little blurbs of info and links to their uninformative websites. I've heard people mention Chambers a lot. I'm not in STL this summer, so I can't just go to school and read what they have there. Should I buy a copy, or is there some way for me to access it online?

I went through the same thing on for PLIP with the conclusion that basically all firms are identical. the best resources people directed me too though were nalpdirectory.com (for seeing how many summer associates the firm has taken the past couple years, and salary), and Vault, which we have a free subscription to if you go through the law school's website.

From the limited information I can usually find, though, each firm is full of smart people and you will work lots of hours. You may or may not hate it. The end.

soccerfreak wrote:

Kabuo wrote:Looking at the firms in symplicity and trying to figure out a strategy. A lot of these have little blurbs of info and links to their uninformative websites. I've heard people mention Chambers a lot. I'm not in STL this summer, so I can't just go to school and read what they have there. Should I buy a copy, or is there some way for me to access it online?

I went through the same thing on for PLIP with the conclusion that basically all firms are identical. the best resources people directed me too though were nalpdirectory.com (for seeing how many summer associates the firm has taken the past couple years, and salary), and Vault, which we have a free subscription to if you go through the law school's website.

From the limited information I can usually find, though, each firm is full of smart people and you will work lots of hours. You may or may not hate it. The end.

This can be pretty frustrating because I at least found it impossible to tell firms apart when trying to apply for OCI. The vault website, the career stuff on ATL, and NALP directory are probably are your best resources. NALP has a lot of information on there, and at the very least you can find out what firms want law students to think of them, even if the narratives are pretty interchangeable. The fact is, because WUSTL has 70% preselects, the bidding during OCI isn't nearly as significant as it is at many other schools. You can put in for every firm in your desired markets (unless they've really upped the number of attendees), and prep for interviews by reading their websites etc. The rankings are going to matter for lottery slots, but for preselects, it's pretty irrelevant.

I think you can get a pretty solid feel for the culture of a firm during a callback, for what it's worth. But when it's a list in symplicity, they really all do blend together.