WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 02, 2012 1:01 pm

deebs wrote:All being said, I wouldn't advise anyone to come to school here without at least a 25,000/year scholarship, maybe 20,000. There chances at big law to be able to pay off the debt otherwise is low, and the government isn't really hiring to get your loans forgiven. If you've got around 150,000 debt or more, IBR only means that you'll never even touch your principle in 20 years because the interest accruing every year will be higher than what you pay. Then you pay 35% of whatever your forgiven debt is because the IRS lists it as a form of income. Good luck having saved up the extra 135,000 required w/o cleaning out your savings to meet that burden. If your debt is under 100k, it's actually doable to pay it off at a little over 10k a year for 20 years

Cosigned. I love the school, but it is not worth anywhere near sticker. Unless you have at least a half ride, I would really have trouble recommending it. There may be a few limited exceptions (like if you are born and raised in STL and can pay for it in cash and want to practice here), but the job prospects generally do not justify the debt. And this isn't just a WUSTL criticism, this is a criticism of a huge chunk of schools in our peer group. Once you get over 100k in debt, it becomes pretty risky, and once you get over 150k, you should start looking elsewhere or retake.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Wed May 02, 2012 2:22 pm

I think there's something to be said for being less prepared for exams. I always seem to do better on the ones I totally blow off. If you don't know the material that well, you tend to BS more and be more creative with your analysis, and that's where you get a lot of points -- if you're a good BSer. You have to be at least familiar with the material, though.

I personally wouldn't recommend any of the typical advice on this site such as Arrow, etc. It's total overkill, and the classes I did that for basically just stressed me out and didn't help me understand the material better -- then when I went into the exam, I was a nervous wreck.

The bottom line is that the material is simple enough for about 90% of the class to understand -- the rest comes down to how you think on your feet, how you perform under severe time pressure/stress, how fast you type, and how naturally good you are at writing exams (and this varies by professor whether you write to their style or not). None of which are real-world skills you need to practice law, except the thinking on your feet part for certain legal jobs. It creates a lot of randomness for which hard work and "studying smart" really won't do a damn thing. "Study smart" is the most bogus thing I've ever heard. You read the cases and you either understand the material or you don't. And if you don't, you get the E&E. The rest is all exam writing.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Wed May 02, 2012 2:42 pm

JCougar wrote:I think there's something to be said for being less prepared for exams. I always seem to do better on the ones I totally blow off. If you don't know the material that well, you tend to BS more and be more creative with your analysis, and that's where you get a lot of points -- if you're a good BSer. You have to be at least familiar with the material, though.

I personally wouldn't recommend any of the typical advice on this site such as Arrow, etc. It's total overkill, and the classes I did that for basically just stressed me out and didn't help me understand the material better -- then when I went into the exam, I was a nervous wreck.

The bottom line is that the material is simple enough for about 90% of the class to understand -- the rest comes down to how you think on your feet, how you perform under severe time pressure/stress, how fast you type, and how naturally good you are at writing exams (and this varies by professor whether you write to their style or not). None of which are real-world skills you need to practice law, except the thinking on your feet part for certain legal jobs. It creates a lot of randomness for which hard work and "studying smart" really won't do a damn thing. "Study smart" is the most bogus thing I've ever heard. You read the cases and you either understand the material or you don't. And if you don't, you get the E&E. The rest is all exam writing.


Ah. So now it's not that everything is arbitrary. It's that grades are subject to factors you may or may not be able to control. That's different.

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soccerfreak
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby soccerfreak » Wed May 02, 2012 2:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
soccerfreak wrote:Can anyone explain the difference between Early Interview week and the normal OCI sessions?

They're essentially the same thing. Most of the top employers come to EIW though.

Well that's wonderful. When planning my trip out of the country, I looked up when OCI was to make sure the dates didn't conflict...didn't even notice EIW til yesterday. I currently have a plane ticket to leave on the 15...

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Wed May 02, 2012 2:52 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
JCougar wrote:I think there's something to be said for being less prepared for exams. I always seem to do better on the ones I totally blow off. If you don't know the material that well, you tend to BS more and be more creative with your analysis, and that's where you get a lot of points -- if you're a good BSer. You have to be at least familiar with the material, though.

I personally wouldn't recommend any of the typical advice on this site such as Arrow, etc. It's total overkill, and the classes I did that for basically just stressed me out and didn't help me understand the material better -- then when I went into the exam, I was a nervous wreck.

The bottom line is that the material is simple enough for about 90% of the class to understand -- the rest comes down to how you think on your feet, how you perform under severe time pressure/stress, how fast you type, and how naturally good you are at writing exams (and this varies by professor whether you write to their style or not). None of which are real-world skills you need to practice law, except the thinking on your feet part for certain legal jobs. It creates a lot of randomness for which hard work and "studying smart" really won't do a damn thing. "Study smart" is the most bogus thing I've ever heard. You read the cases and you either understand the material or you don't. And if you don't, you get the E&E. The rest is all exam writing.


Ah. So now it's not that everything is arbitrary. It's that grades are subject to factors you may or may not be able to control. That's different.


The last two factors on the list are pretty much arbitrary, or at least evaluated in an arbitrary fashion. And I think the first one has a relatively small influence -- and also correlates with the third factor.

Just because there is a finite set of factors that go into exam grading doesn't mean they're not evaluated arbitrarily.
Last edited by JCougar on Wed May 02, 2012 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Kabuo » Wed May 02, 2012 2:55 pm

soccerfreak wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
soccerfreak wrote:Can anyone explain the difference between Early Interview week and the normal OCI sessions?

They're essentially the same thing. Most of the top employers come to EIW though.

Well that's wonderful. When planning my trip out of the country, I looked up when OCI was to make sure the dates didn't conflict...didn't even notice EIW til yesterday. I currently have a plane ticket to leave on the 15...


Where can I find info on this EIW?

And @ tattereddignity. Leave JCougar alone!

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby stratocophic » Wed May 02, 2012 3:08 pm

soccerfreak wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
soccerfreak wrote:Can anyone explain the difference between Early Interview week and the normal OCI sessions?

They're essentially the same thing. Most of the top employers come to EIW though.

Well that's wonderful. When planning my trip out of the country, I looked up when OCI was to make sure the dates didn't conflict...didn't even notice EIW til yesterday. I currently have a plane ticket to leave on the 15...
You wanna be here for EIW. That's when all of the big STL firms are on campus - probably 80-90% of the big firms that are going to interview here go through EIW. They'll end up doing like 7 rounds of OCI as one or two random firms at a time decide they're interested or some NY state government internship with no permanent prospects decides they want to interview here, but they're a joke after (or maybe even starting with) round 2.

jms1987
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby jms1987 » Wed May 02, 2012 3:12 pm

Out of curiosity, do any big Ohio or Indiana firms recruit at WUSTL?

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Wed May 02, 2012 3:13 pm

jms1987 wrote:Out of curiosity, do any big Ohio or Indiana firms recruit at WUSTL?


Ask Romo. :wink:

I think ALL of the big Indiana firms do. I didn't see much Ohio though...maybe only one or two.

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby stratocophic » Wed May 02, 2012 3:27 pm

JCougar wrote:
jms1987 wrote:Out of curiosity, do any big Ohio or Indiana firms recruit at WUSTL?


Ask Romo. :wink:

I think ALL of the big Indiana firms do. I didn't see much Ohio though...maybe only one or two.
At least some of them do. Dinsmore and Jones Day for sure, pretty sure Taft was there, and I think there were at least 2 or 3 more big players in Cincy/Cleveland at EIW.

jms1987
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby jms1987 » Wed May 02, 2012 3:35 pm

stratocophic wrote:
JCougar wrote:
jms1987 wrote:Out of curiosity, do any big Ohio or Indiana firms recruit at WUSTL?


Ask Romo. :wink:

I think ALL of the big Indiana firms do. I didn't see much Ohio though...maybe only one or two.
At least some of them do. Dinsmore and Jones Day for sure, pretty sure Taft was there, and I think there were at least 2 or 3 more big players in Cincy/Cleveland at EIW.



Thanks, thats what I was wondering.

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Unagi
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Unagi » Thu May 03, 2012 10:23 am

Hey! I posted on the "class of 2015" but I figured I might also ask here.
I was thinking of renting an apartment at U-City or Clayton, but I can't find anything I like.
I really want to be close to school and the best place (closest) I found was through Quadrangle Housing. I saw pictures of the apartment and it looks a bit old, so I'm afraid it will be worse in reality. And by the way, I won't be able to visit so I'll have to pick based on photos...
Is it better to look for an apartment in June/ July (maybe more offers)? Or should I rent asap?
Thanks!

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 03, 2012 10:29 am

Unagi wrote:Hey! I posted on the "class of 2015" but I figured I might also ask here.
I was thinking of renting an apartment at U-City or Clayton, but I can't find anything I like.
I really want to be close to school and the best place (closest) I found was through Quadrangle Housing. I saw pictures of the apartment and it looks a bit old, so I'm afraid it will be worse in reality. And by the way, I won't be able to visit so I'll have to pick based on photos...
Is it better to look for an apartment in June/ July (maybe more offers)? Or should I rent asap?
Thanks!

I think you can wait for June/July, there is no rush now and there are sure to be some better apartments in the next few months. I am also kind of keeping my eye out for apartments right now for myself, so if I find any good ones that I don't take, I'll forward them on to you. How close to school do you want to be? Does it have to be walking distance? Any amenities you really need?

Also, you PM'd me last week, didn't you? I'm sorry for not getting back to you, it's been really crazy with finals. I will respond in the next couple of days, once I get done with all this nonsense.

J-tow10
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby J-tow10 » Thu May 03, 2012 10:44 am

Unagi wrote:Hey! I posted on the "class of 2015" but I figured I might also ask here.
I was thinking of renting an apartment at U-City or Clayton, but I can't find anything I like.
I really want to be close to school and the best place (closest) I found was through Quadrangle Housing. I saw pictures of the apartment and it looks a bit old, so I'm afraid it will be worse in reality. And by the way, I won't be able to visit so I'll have to pick based on photos...
Is it better to look for an apartment in June/ July (maybe more offers)? Or should I rent asap?
Thanks!


You should be fine. Before 1L year I didn't get an apartment until the end of July. If you haven't used it before, try padmapper.com. It's the best.

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby stratocophic » Thu May 03, 2012 11:32 am

Unagi wrote:Hey! I posted on the "class of 2015" but I figured I might also ask here.
I was thinking of renting an apartment at U-City or Clayton, but I can't find anything I like.
I really want to be close to school and the best place (closest) I found was through Quadrangle Housing. I saw pictures of the apartment and it looks a bit old, so I'm afraid it will be worse in reality. And by the way, I won't be able to visit so I'll have to pick based on photos...
Is it better to look for an apartment in June/ July (maybe more offers)? Or should I rent asap?
Thanks!
If the Quadrangle apartment you looked at online was Castlereagh, it's not bad at all. It's about as nice as other stuff in its general price range in the Loop/Central West End areas like the Monticello. If it was the apartment building on top of the print shop, however... run, do not walk, in the other direction.

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Thu May 03, 2012 1:29 pm

Unagi wrote:Hey! I posted on the "class of 2015" but I figured I might also ask here.
I was thinking of renting an apartment at U-City or Clayton, but I can't find anything I like.
I really want to be close to school and the best place (closest) I found was through Quadrangle Housing. I saw pictures of the apartment and it looks a bit old, so I'm afraid it will be worse in reality. And by the way, I won't be able to visit so I'll have to pick based on photos...
Is it better to look for an apartment in June/ July (maybe more offers)? Or should I rent asap?
Thanks!


I found my place in late july and moved in mid august. WashU students really are the market for apartments around the school, and leases will be opening up for august 1 move ins

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Unagi
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Unagi » Thu May 03, 2012 1:34 pm

Thanks everyone!!

Total Litigator
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Total Litigator » Thu May 03, 2012 2:57 pm

Generally, if you study hard and learn how to study for and take law schools exams, YOUR grades will be generally be higher than if YOU hadn't done that ("I didn't study, I had no idea what I was doing, and aced the final" is an exception to the rule). Beyond that, everything does seem somewhat arbitrary.

A shot in the dark
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby A shot in the dark » Thu May 03, 2012 7:12 pm

if anybody is looking for a cheap summer sublet in the Central West End (lot of bars, restaurants for people not familiar with St. Louis), please pm me for details.

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soccerfreak
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby soccerfreak » Thu May 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Anybody familiar with how the St. Louis market is looking these days? A little amateur research on NALP says there were 28 SA positions at the big 6 in 2010.

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splitsplat
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby splitsplat » Thu May 03, 2012 9:01 pm

A shot in the dark wrote:if anybody is looking for a cheap summer sublet in the Central West End (lot of bars, restaurants for people not familiar with St. Louis), please pm me for details.

name relevant. lawl.

A shot in the dark
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby A shot in the dark » Fri May 04, 2012 10:18 am

can anybody offer tips for bluebooking/write-on generally? I literally have no idea how to use the bluebook. I think that there is a table in the back with abbreviations.

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JCougar
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby JCougar » Fri May 04, 2012 2:25 pm

soccerfreak wrote:Anybody familiar with how the St. Louis market is looking these days? A little amateur research on NALP says there were 28 SA positions at the big 6 in 2010.


Are you from St. Louis? If you aren't, your chances are close to zero no matter what your grades, but it can be done if you do something like buy a house here.

If you are, top third may get you in if you have decent soft factors -- top 20% otherwise. Just my rough guess re: what happened to our class.

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beachbum
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby beachbum » Fri May 04, 2012 2:47 pm

JCougar wrote:
soccerfreak wrote:Anybody familiar with how the St. Louis market is looking these days? A little amateur research on NALP says there were 28 SA positions at the big 6 in 2010.


Are you from St. Louis? If you aren't, your chances are close to zero no matter what your grades, but it can be done if you do something like buy a house here.

If you are, top third may get you in if you have decent soft factors -- top 20% otherwise. Just my rough guess re: what happened to our class.


To add to this, it looks like STL firms are expanding their summer programs slowly enough to not really make a difference for c/o 2014. The big firms seem to be adding only a few SAs (e.g., BC went from 11 to 13), and I haven't heard anything to suggest this trend won't hold for our class. So, it might be (very) marginally easier to obtain a biglaw SA this year, but I'd expect similar results to c/o 2013.

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soccerfreak
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby soccerfreak » Fri May 04, 2012 4:54 pm

beachbum wrote:
JCougar wrote:
soccerfreak wrote:Anybody familiar with how the St. Louis market is looking these days? A little amateur research on NALP says there were 28 SA positions at the big 6 in 2010.


Are you from St. Louis? If you aren't, your chances are close to zero no matter what your grades, but it can be done if you do something like buy a house here.

If you are, top third may get you in if you have decent soft factors -- top 20% otherwise. Just my rough guess re: what happened to our class.


To add to this, it looks like STL firms are expanding their summer programs slowly enough to not really make a difference for c/o 2014. The big firms seem to be adding only a few SAs (e.g., BC went from 11 to 13), and I haven't heard anything to suggest this trend won't hold for our class. So, it might be (very) marginally easier to obtain a biglaw SA this year, but I'd expect similar results to c/o 2013.

Yep, I'm a native.

Beachbum, where'd you get that updated info? NALP only had info for 2010, and said they only had like 6 spots then...although now that I check it says they expected 11 for 2011.




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