WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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thexfactor
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby thexfactor » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:37 am

romothesavior wrote:
TatteredDignity wrote:I know this will probably happen because most 0Ls are clueless, but I'll be sad if we get a less talented crop of 1Ls next year because of this.

Also my concern. Would be a silly and misinformed reason for it, but I imagine some will go elsewhere because of it.


Romo: do you think our drop is really due to 9 months employment? I think that is only 10% of the total ranking. All the schools above us were at 90% instead of wustl at 80. Is that 10% of 10% really the difference? It seems that the gap between USC and WUSTL is several raw points.

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JenDarby
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby JenDarby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:12 am

For what it's worth, I feel vindicated romo. :wink:

let us all recognize these aren't fighting words. Though if you must. This thread simply remains in my posts from last year.

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Clint Eastwood
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Clint Eastwood » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:21 am

Romo, WUSTL is approaching a sure thing for me more and more as time goes on, but I can't go to any ASWs or visit at all until after I accept. I don't suppose there's anything special I'm missing beyond seeing the campus, though. At least, I hope not.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:42 am

thexfactor wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
TatteredDignity wrote:I know this will probably happen because most 0Ls are clueless, but I'll be sad if we get a less talented crop of 1Ls next year because of this.

Also my concern. Would be a silly and misinformed reason for it, but I imagine some will go elsewhere because of it.


Romo: do you think our drop is really due to 9 months employment? I think that is only 10% of the total ranking. All the schools above us were at 90% instead of wustl at 80. Is that 10% of 10% really the difference? It seems that the gap between USC and WUSTL is several raw points.

If that's not it, then what it it? Our firm ranking was 15th. Our peer assessment score is better than basically all of schools we're ranked with... better than GW, UMN, W&M, IUB, Emory, UNC, George Mason, and I'm sure others (these are just the ones I looked at in a 2 minute overview of that Rankings thread). Our LSAT median went up. Our GPA median is still about what it usually is (3.66).

From what I can tell, all of our metrics are the same or better except for employment. I could be missing something or maybe Dean Syverud lied to me in our meeting and to the entire school when he told us all of our metrics are the same or bette, but it doesn't seem like that is the case. The detailed metric data is here:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178748&start=425

CanadianWolf
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:46 am

A nine (9) place drop--from #38 to #47--occurred last year due to employment stats that were reported without the guidance of a law school dean at Colorado. So, yes, a four (4) spot drop can occur due to lower 9 month employment stats. Honesty has its price. But, so does dishonesty (e.g., see Villanova).

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Kabuo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:55 am

Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:01 am

Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.


I'm definitely transferring now...I mean, who wants to goto a school ranked...*gasp* 23rd? Especially when I can get a full ride to Harvard as a transfer.

/how I imagined that conversation in my head
//assuming the 1L is the person I think it is.

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Kabuo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:04 am

notedgarfigaro wrote:
Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.


I'm definitely transferring now...I mean, who wants to goto a school ranked...*gasp* 23rd? Especially when I can get a full ride to Harvard as a transfer.

/how I imagined that conversation in my head
//assuming the 1L is the person I think it is.


I think you either have it right, or you're thinking of the person most likely to agree with her.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:09 am

Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.

Lol I want to know who this is. What an asinine thought.

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bouakedojo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:55 pm

Kabuo wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:
Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.


I'm definitely transferring now...I mean, who wants to goto a school ranked...*gasp* 23rd? Especially when I can get a full ride to Harvard as a transfer.

/how I imagined that conversation in my head
//assuming the 1L is the person I think it is.


I think you either have it right, or you're thinking of the person most likely to agree with her.


The person I'm thinking of is in Kabuo's section. That person gleefully cried out in the full auditorium so everyone could know that she got a good grade.

Is that who you guys are thinking of, because that person is legendary...

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Kabuo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:02 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:
Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.


I'm definitely transferring now...I mean, who wants to goto a school ranked...*gasp* 23rd? Especially when I can get a full ride to Harvard as a transfer.

/how I imagined that conversation in my head
//assuming the 1L is the person I think it is.


I think you either have it right, or you're thinking of the person most likely to agree with her.


The person I'm thinking of is in Kabuo's section. That person gleefully cried out in the full auditorium so everyone could know that she got a good grade.

Is that who you guys are thinking of, because that person is legendary...


Nah, you guys have the wrong gunner. She is legendary, and probably harbors these thoughts, but she isn't the one who said this. This is a section A phenomenon. You can pm me if you're super curious.

TheZoid
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TheZoid » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:08 pm

Just throwing it out there that I'll still be attending despite the US News plummet (note: sarcasm), though I don't know about the adding talent to the class thing. Also, just curious what you guys think about attending with a 16k/year scholly. Taking on about 150k is a pretty big risk given WUSTL's biglaw placement and I'm well aware of it, but I think I'll take the plunge as I'm a splitter and this is pretty far and away the best school I got into. Wasn't expecting any money from them and wasn't going to attend at sticker, but 48k total seemed like enough to swing the decision from irresponsibly risky to moderately risky. Also, thanks to romo, strat, tattered and others for your input in this thread.

josh43299
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby josh43299 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:11 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
notedgarfigaro wrote:
Kabuo wrote:Well, I was wrong about the number. Might have lost a bet. Still think it's a net positive, and tattered dignity's (I still can't believe that's your new name) anecdote about 1Ls transferring due to a drop should be placed in context. It was one 1L, and I think her opinions are not at all representative of the class on just about anything.


I'm definitely transferring now...I mean, who wants to goto a school ranked...*gasp* 23rd? Especially when I can get a full ride to Harvard as a transfer.

/how I imagined that conversation in my head
//assuming the 1L is the person I think it is.


I think you either have it right, or you're thinking of the person most likely to agree with her.


The person I'm thinking of is in Kabuo's section. That person gleefully cried out in the full auditorium so everyone could know that she got a good grade.

Is that who you guys are thinking of, because that person is legendary...


Wow.

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notedgarfigaro
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby notedgarfigaro » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:29 pm

josh43299 wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:The person I'm thinking of is in Kabuo's section. That person gleefully cried out in the full auditorium so everyone could know that she got a good grade.

Is that who you guys are thinking of, because that person is legendary...


Wow.


exception to the rule that everyone at WUSTL is awesome. Exception to the rule.

Also, now I know who said it, and I'm laughing.

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:33 pm

Not about usnews rankings, but I would transfer or try if you are top third or above. Obviously, scholarship money and just how high in the class you are is relevant. The people I talk to that transferred all killed it, and I know there's still LR/Top10% combo people without anything lined up yet.
Last edited by deebs on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bouakedojo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:38 pm

deebs wrote:Not about usnews rankings, but I would transfer or try if you are top third or above. Obviously, scholarship money and just how high in the class you are is relevant. The people I talk to that transferred all killed it, and I know there's still LR/Top10% people without anything lined up yet.


I'd be interested to know more about why you recommend transferring, deebs.

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bouakedojo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:39 pm

notedgarfigaro wrote:exception to the rule that everyone at WUSTL is awesome. Exception to the rule.


Ya, I agree. My section doesn't have any obnxious gunners. Everyone's so chill.

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:01 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
deebs wrote:Not about usnews rankings, but I would transfer or try if you are top third or above. Obviously, scholarship money and just how high in the class you are is relevant. The people I talk to that transferred all killed it, and I know there's still LR/Top10% people without anything lined up yet.


I'd be interested to know more about why you recommend transferring, deebs.

The simple answer is job prospects. I think it just depends on your goals, geographic preferences, sholarship money, and rank. If you're top 10% with a big scholarship, I think transferring for something less than HYS would be silly. If you're top quarter and have no scholarship and can get into NW or something, you probably should think about going.

As for top 10% people without jobs, they are very few and far between. I don't mean to disparage anyone in that position, but at some point you can't blame the school, grades, the CSO, the economy, etc. Top 10% at WUSTL should have very little trouble getting a job, so I would hesitate to look at that as any indication of anything.

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:02 pm

bouakedojo wrote:I'd be interested to know more about why you recommend transferring, deebs.


Once you miss the oci boat/fall recruiting season, the opportunity to pull in the kind of money to pay off loans is out the window. Attorneys in my home major market aren't impressed by top 25%/LR at wustl because they're getting top 5% TT kids from the city (which is most likely their alma mater to begin with at smaller shops). Midlaw doesn't really exist, and unless a partner drops off your resume, good luck getting anything through mass mailing. Attorney's at 30-50 person firms I've had coffee with still recruit during the fall, and will take median kids from northwestern or chicago. A firm (maybe v100?) told my friend (who wound up at a V5) that they haven't looked at his resume and it probably won't matter, because they don't plan on taking anyone from WUSTL.

Not to only talk about the negatives, as a handful of ppl in the class are going to V5's and other people have great gigs, but you don't want to be the guy who got unlucky and are one of the 20 or so kids who had the chance and missed. I'd much rather have a T14 on my resume, even if it meant an extra 30k of debt because frankly, I have no chance of paying off my loans. Obviously everyone's situation is different, and someone will quote me saying that they love wustl, but you see the figures, 20% have NOTHING 9 months after graduation. After you strike out, you and the guy with an 85/86 average are on an equal playing field and either one could easily be one of the 50 students who are filling up coffee's at 5 in the morning.

Of course your odds of being the 1 or 2 people in the top 10% without something is extremely small, but it will happen to 1 or 2 of them. I didn't try to transfer because I thought it was impossible at top 25%, but someone with those grades transferred to Northwestern then got chicago big law, and someone around median got into UCLA and now has top 15% grades there. St. Louis is not a fallback at all, even ask Romo who was gunning st. louis, but had better offers from firms in other cities.

I still ask the same people who struck out that had/possibly had the grades to get something and no one has anything, or atleast anything they really wanted/has a possibility of future employment.

tl;dr - read romo's post

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Crowing
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Crowing » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:04 pm

I still haven't heard back from any of the T-14 as a late submitter, but even assuming I'm rejected everywhere WUSTL is still a happy choice for me. I grew up in St. Louis and love the city and would have no problem working there for the rest of my life. I don't give a crap about the rankings, and as others have said, I'm actually rather proud that WUSTL went ahead and bit the bullet by reporting by the new standards while other schools continue to try to game the numbers.

I'd have no problems taking my numbers to WUSTL. IIRC there's one more ASD on March 30th so I'll be there; hopefully I'll meet some of you guys while I'm visiting.

seatown12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby seatown12 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:36 pm

deebs wrote:...someone around median got into UCLA and now has top 15% grades there. St. Louis is not a fallback at all...

Maybe the best reason to transfer is to get into a better market. West Coast schools in particular favor GPA in admissions, so for a splitter who wanted to work in CA the pro move might be to go to Wash U and then transfer to a school out there.

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thexfactor
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby thexfactor » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:26 pm

I was looking at our law school's employment data on wustl.edu and I noticed significantly less information as compared to our "peers." aka ND, USC, Vandy, BC. Wustl did not list the breakdown by size of law firm. A lot of people say that WUSTL's numbers are down in NLJ250 placement due to more midlaw hiring vs real east coast biglaw hiring. I wanted to see how many people are hired by so called "midlaw firms." aka firms between 50-250 lawyers.

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bouakedojo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:47 pm

romothesavior wrote:The simple answer is job prospects. I think it just depends on your goals, geographic preferences, sholarship money, and rank. If you're top 10% with a big scholarship, I think transferring for something less than HYS would be silly. If you're top quarter and have no scholarship and can get into NW or something, you probably should think about going.

As for top 10% people without jobs, they are very few and far between. I don't mean to disparage anyone in that position, but at some point you can't blame the school, grades, the CSO, the economy, etc. Top 10% at WUSTL should have very little trouble getting a job, so I would hesitate to look at that as any indication of anything.


deebs wrote:Once you miss the oci boat/fall recruiting season, the opportunity to pull in the kind of money to pay off loans is out the window. Attorneys in my home major market aren't impressed by top 25%/LR at wustl because they're getting top 5% TT kids from the city (which is most likely their alma mater to begin with at smaller shops). Midlaw doesn't really exist, and unless a partner drops off your resume, good luck getting anything through mass mailing. Attorney's at 30-50 person firms I've had coffee with still recruit during the fall, and will take median kids from northwestern or chicago. A firm (maybe v100?) told my friend (who wound up at a V5) that they haven't looked at his resume and it probably won't matter, because they don't plan on taking anyone from WUSTL.

Not to only talk about the negatives, as a handful of ppl in the class are going to V5's and other people have great gigs, but you don't want to be the guy who got unlucky and are one of the 20 or so kids who had the chance and missed. I'd much rather have a T14 on my resume, even if it meant an extra 30k of debt because frankly, I have no chance of paying off my loans. Obviously everyone's situation is different, and someone will quote me saying that they love wustl, but you see the figures, 20% have NOTHING 9 months after graduation. After you strike out, you and the guy with an 85/86 average are on an equal playing field and either one could easily be one of the 50 students who are filling up coffee's at 5 in the morning.

Of course your odds of being the 1 or 2 people in the top 10% without something is extremely small, but it will happen to 1 or 2 of them. I didn't try to transfer because I thought it was impossible at top 25%, but someone with those grades transferred to Northwestern then got chicago big law, and someone around median got into UCLA and now has top 15% grades there. St. Louis is not a fallback at all, even ask Romo who was gunning st. louis, but had better offers from firms in other cities.

I still ask the same people who struck out that had/possibly had the grades to get something and no one has anything, or atleast anything they really wanted/has a possibility of future employment.

tl;dr - read romo's post


Thanks for the responses. I never considered that option before, but I was never interested in Biglaw.

Do you think the same holds true for people interested in PI/government? I know that that is hyper-competitive as well.

I'm really gunning for JAG, which is hard right now with the selection rates so low.

stolli
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby stolli » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:06 pm

I still dont understand this ranking thing. are the new ABA standards mandatory for all schools? if so, why did we drop more then other schools? are we gaming the numbers more? or is this optional and wustl just took the initiative. And if thats the case, when these standards become mandatory wont we regain our ranking or possibly place higher?

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:14 pm

bouakedojo wrote:Thanks for the responses. I never considered that option before, but I was never interested in Biglaw.

Do you think the same holds true for people interested in PI/government? I know that that is hyper-competitive as well.

I'm really gunning for JAG, which is hard right now with the selection rates so low.


Yeah, everything I wrote corresponded to biglaw/firms. I know nothing of PI stuff, but have been trying to get JAG as well government agencies. I'm not sure about the others, but the Navy had a 6% selection rate. I don't think transferring to a T14 would really help, but not sure.




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