WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
barneytrouble
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby barneytrouble » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:11 pm

Hey guys

as a splitter, wustl with their large schollys is obviously on the target list. did anyone in here choose it over a t14 sticker, and then end up wishing you had gone t14?

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PBateman1
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby PBateman1 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:25 pm

barneytrouble wrote:Hey guys

as a splitter, wustl with their large schollys is obviously on the target list. did anyone in here choose it over a t14 sticker, and then end up wishing you had gone t14?


I am also interested to know about this

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Kabuo
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Kabuo » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:43 pm

PBateman1 wrote:
barneytrouble wrote:Hey guys

as a splitter, wustl with their large schollys is obviously on the target list. did anyone in here choose it over a t14 sticker, and then end up wishing you had gone t14?


I am also interested to know about this


I think you might get a lot more answers about this after grades finish trickling out. At least for the 1Ls.

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:37 pm

Need more info on you two posters to provide good feedback.
- What are you going for big law? You generally have a 2-3x better shot coming from a T14 and a 2x better shot from peer schools.
If you want big law factors to consider:
Your home market
Prestige of undergrad
Man vs woman (before I get reemed, firms try to hire 50/50 and there's more men in law school so math dictates this is true)
White vs URM (not as big of a boost as 1L's get for employment, but it can't hurt)
Work experience
IP

If your home market has a horrible legal economy, i.e. Chicago, then you really have no other fallback options unless you lie and say you used to live in X. If you're not in the top 10%, most of your interviews from on campus will be in random midwest cities, where they are looking for strong ties. There are off campus interviews held in NYC, DC, ATL, SF, maybe some others. Most of the people who did well at NY had great grades (top 10%), some diverse statistic, or had an elite undergrad. I know nothing about west coast, and I think DC and ATL - ppl did well that had ties there and good grades or something else the firms can market.

If you're getting a lot of money from WUSTL, try to use that and leverage schools such as BU, BC, UCLA, Vandy. I've had attorneys tell me that the problem with WUSTL and it's lack of equivalent placement with peer schools is that it is a recent rise in the rankings, and the firms used to get crappy work from wustl people years ago - I don't know how much of this was BS from the guy, but I've heard it from more than one.

Actually answering your question, I didn't have the option of T14 v WUSTL. I retook the LSAT in June (2 months before the semester started) to get off waitlists. From my perspective, I had LR and fairly good grades (not top 10% though) after 1L and am considering dropping out because of my debt load and lack of prospects. Then again, plenty of people not on LR and with worse grades than me landed pretty good gigs, but they had a trump card (see factors above) that I did not. I had a fairly large number of screeners, but almost 80% of them I had no ties to the city and interviewers will ask "why X" or "where's home" or "Where the hell is your undergrad" if it's as unknown as mine was. None of the absurd number of firms I contacted in my home market, Chicago, wanted anything to do with me because it is a blood bath. Whereas, someone not on LR who had similar grades as mine transferred to Northwestern and got Chicago biglaw. Everyone who transferred out of WUSTL seemed to do really well from the people I know that did.

Alas, with all anecdotal perspectives, other people will tell you that it was a great decision. Choosing the school is tough, you never know how you're going to do in school, and having 50k of debt vs 150k is two different worlds if you don't land big law. However, since WUSTL has stats comparable all the way up to Texas, you are competing against similarly ranked/stats'ed kids here for half the opportunities available to other kids. PM me if you want, and if you don't want biglaw, then ignore everything I said.

Oban
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby Oban » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:15 pm

T14 sticker > wustl w/ $$ unless you have near full ride at wustl

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:37 am

PBateman1 wrote:
barneytrouble wrote:Hey guys

as a splitter, wustl with their large schollys is obviously on the target list. did anyone in here choose it over a t14 sticker, and then end up wishing you had gone t14?


I am also interested to know about this

I took WUSTL with a large scholly (not full or really even that close to full) over a t14 at sticker. Do I regret it? No. Things worked out for me at a firm I really like, and even if I didn't have an SA by now, I have a feeling that something (non-big law) would have worked out, either in St. Louis or back home. I don't think "jobless and drowning in debt" was ever a real possibility for me, but "underemployed and financially struggling" certainly was.

Would I do it again if I didn't know the outcome? Yeah, probably. The T14 I turned down was Cornell, and I have 0 interest in NYC. I would have preferred to work in a small firm back home or in STL than gone to NYC biglaw. I'm unique in that regard. For me, paying 200k+ for a degree from Cornell that would land me in a city that I didn't want to be in would have been stupid. If I knew back then what I know now though, I think I would have given Vanderbilt more of a look. I took WUSTL with slightly more money over Vandy, but after hearing reports of how their 2L job searches went, it really isn't a peer school to us. It is clearly a cut above, and by a pretty significant margin. They have a lot of students struggling there too, but their job placement still rocks ours. But in the end, WUSTL worked out for me, so yay.

Now would I advise others to take this route? It depends. I love the school, and few people on TLS or IRL would say a bad word about the actual school itself. But great facilities, great professors, great students, and great administrators don't mean much to our current 2Ls and 3Ls who are in major debt and jobless right now. If you really want to stay in the Midwest and you can get some good money, then WUSTL is a great choice. If you just want a job (especially a big firm job in a major city), I'd say go to the T14. Your odds of biglaw are probably 2x-3x as high from a T14.

STLMizzou
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby STLMizzou » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:07 pm

I am a potential 0L, who is currently working at a clerk at a mid-sized firm. I am either swamped with projects or have absolutely nothing to do depending on the week. This seems like one of those weeks where I have nothing to do. I feel bad just surfing around the internet, can any current students PM me/suggest some cases they found interesting during their 1L year?

I am not looking to be a gunner or anything, I just genuinely enjoy reading interesting court documents. Plus, I feel like less of a waste when I am sitting around reading case documents rather than just perusing TLS.

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thexfactor
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby thexfactor » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:48 am

I respect Romo's comments, but I have a slightly different opinion.

Wustl ended up working out for me too but I still think that if you can get into any school ranked higher than WUSTL it is a better decision to attend that school. I would even attend BU/BC over WUSTL. Job placement statistics should be above the region that you want to work.
I might even consider ND above WUSTL solely due to the network and the alumni base that ND has.
I don't know if other wustl students have encountered this before, but I have been to 2 regional biglaw midwestern firms and had 2 associates ask me about my school. They sounded like they have never heard of my school.

If you do decide to come to wustl and are not in the top 10% after your 1L year, be prepared to HUSTLE and grind it out for a summer job. ITE you really need to be top 1/3 at wustl to have a chance at a decent paying job. Top 1/3 is necessary and not sufficient.

I see how attending wustl or any law school, could have easily been the worst decision of my life. Even though I am in the top 20% of my class, I realized how lucky I am to have a job. I know someone who was top 1/3, networked with 1 person and got a job from that contact. I also know people who were in the top 25%, networked their asses off and have nothing to show for it. Between the top 1/3 and top 10%, luck plays a huge factor in finding a job.

Lastly, it is almost impossible to break into the STL legal market if you are not from STL and do not have top 10% grades. Like other midwestern cities, STL really looks for ties to the city. Wouldn't want you running to chicago in 2 years would they? ;)
Last edited by thexfactor on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

STLMizzou
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby STLMizzou » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:06 pm

Thank you for the advice given so far, it has been extremely helpful. It seems like TCR is: WUSTL is good if they give decent money and you have STL ties/ the ability to use STL law as a primary goal/backup.

It is weird to me; I didn’t know how little people outside of the Midwest know about wustl. I grew up in STL, and people there treat it like the Harvard of the mid-west. A few quick questions:

1. Have you heard of anybody in your classes getting a solid SA out of 1L? I have already held 2 law related jobs out of undergraduate, so I am not worried about networking and being able to find a paying summer gig in a law related field, I am just wondering if you know of anybody from WUSTL who has landed a 1L SA?
2. Would having Chicago ties hurt my chances of working STL big-law?
3. Two people go after a STL big-law job, one is from SLU in top 10%, one is WUSTL top 3rd. Both have equal ties/resumes. If you were a betting man, who would you put money on getting the job?

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thexfactor
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby thexfactor » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:11 pm

STLMizzou wrote:Thank you for the advice given so far, it has been extremely helpful. It seems like TCR is: WUSTL is good if they give decent money and you have STL ties/ the ability to use STL law as a primary goal/backup.

It is weird to me; I didn’t know how little people outside of the Midwest know about wustl. I grew up in STL, and people there treat it like the Harvard of the mid-west. A few quick questions:

1. Have you heard of anybody in your classes getting a solid SA out of 1L? I have already held 2 law related jobs out of undergraduate, so I am not worried about networking and being able to find a paying summer gig in a law related field, I am just wondering if you know of anybody from WUSTL who has landed a 1L SA?
2. Would having Chicago ties hurt my chances of working STL big-law?
3. Two people go after a STL big-law job, one is from SLU in top 10%, one is WUSTL top 3rd. Both have equal ties/resumes. If you were a betting man, who would you put money on getting the job?


1. Yes, but most people do not get anything their 1L year.
2. I don't think ties to Chicago will hurt your chances of getting STL biglaw as long as you have ties to STL.
3. If the WUSTL guy doesnt have ties to the city, I think SLU would have the advantage. If both have ties, I still think the SLU guy might have the advantage. A lot of the senior partners in stl biglaw firms graduated from SLU. If all things are equal, I think top 25% WUSTL = 10% SLU. FWIW, Bryan Cave hired more SA from Slu than WUSTL.

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robin600
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby robin600 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:09 pm

PhoenicianMonk wrote:^You may be talking about the old LRAP program, although I do think that current and future classes can do the old program if you don't enroll in IBR.

Under the new program (which usually works out to be better than the old one, from my reading of the materials), WUSTL basically covers your loan payments = to 6% of your income, up to incomes of $70,000. You must be enrolled in IBR and have a public service job. Upward or downward adjustments to your income are made based on your assets, if you have a spouse or kids, etc.


You're absolutely right, thanks for clarifying. C/o 2014 has the new as their only option, whereas earlier classes can choose which program works best for them. Either way, it's pretty damn amazing for a T20 school.

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acadec
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby acadec » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:01 pm

.
Last edited by acadec on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

seatown12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby seatown12 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:09 am

acadec wrote:If I go to WUSTL, I probably want to live in St. Louis permanently after graduation. Any idea of how well you have to do to get a 160k job in the city?


http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/print-edition/2011/07/15/bryan-cave-hikes-starting-pay-for-new.html?page=all

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:52 am

acadec wrote:If I go to WUSTL, I probably want to live in St. Louis permanently after graduation. Any idea of how well you have to do to get a 160k job in the city?

160k jobs don't exist in STL.

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acadec
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby acadec » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:27 pm

Got it. So...any idea how well you have to do to get one of the 125 or 110k jobs?

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:35 pm

acadec wrote:Got it. So...any idea how well you have to do to get one of the 125 or 110k jobs?

Top third minimum absent diversity or IP. Top quarter more realistically. Ties to St. Louis are crucial.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:11 pm

This question is for RockChalk and other KC bound people specifically, but really anyone with knowledge generally. Could you provide some "word on the street" info on the basic perception of the 6-7 major KC firms, including their culture, quality of work, etc? The stuff you can't see on the nalp form. If worried about outing or something, PM would be good.

Besides talking to attorneys and getting them to spill (which I'm working on), I'm not sure how else to go about figuring this out.

ETA: for that matter, I'm sure many on here would appreciate something similar for the STL firms.

STLMizzou
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby STLMizzou » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:19 pm

Follow up question for RockChalk and other KC bound people: Why does is Kansas so oblivious to how much it sucks?

Also: Why do people from Kansas City insist on shitting on the national anthem? Do you hate America or is that some kind of attention ploy like a teenager going through a goth stage?

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romothesavior
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:27 pm

STLMizzou wrote:Follow up question for RockChalk and other KC bound people: Why does is Kansas so oblivious to how much it sucks?

Also: Why do people from Kansas City insist on shitting on the national anthem? Do you hate America or is that some kind of attention ploy like a teenager going through a goth stage?

I have a strong subjective bias towards STL, but I can recognize that KC is objectively nicer.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby TatteredDignity » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:51 pm

STLMizzou wrote:Follow up question for RockChalk and other KC bound people: Why does is Kansas so oblivious to how much it sucks?

Also: Why do people from Kansas City insist on shitting on the national anthem? Do you hate America or is that some kind of attention ploy like a teenager going through a goth stage?


Yeah, we do suck. We have this weird obsession with diction and syntax.

I'll give you the second one: I'm not crazy about the tradition. I like to think that it's instigated by the ignorant yokels from the Missouri side.

STLMizzou
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby STLMizzou » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:03 pm

Touché, typo checking my insults would probably be TCR. Kansas city's BBQ is badass, and the plaza is a sweet place to get drunk. Kansas city really wouldn't be a bad place, if it wasn't full of Kansas citians :lol:

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ConfidenceMan2
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby ConfidenceMan2 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:13 pm

So to land an SA in STL/KC you need top 1/3 or 1/4 at WUSTL? Are non-HYS T14s viewed any differently? Median at Duke or NU or Michigan or something going to be viewed better than median at WUSTL (I'm from St Louis and my wife is from KC, so I have substantive ties to either market)?

I'd also be interested to hear about WUSTL and PI. Ultimately, I'd be a lot happier taking in 50k doing something that I perceive as meaningful than NYC or Chicago biglaw (I do have this idea that STL and KC firms are more bearable, but that might be completely false for all I know). Taking $$ at WUSTL with the intent of doing PI in Missouri a bad move? T14 + LRAP going to be more flexible? Any anecdotal evidence there?

seatown12
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby seatown12 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:45 pm

ConfidenceMan2 wrote:Taking $$ at WUSTL with the intent of doing PI in Missouri a bad move?

This is a great plan. I think taking $$ in the market you want, and have ties to, is the way to go if you want to do PI. To be honest if SLU wanted to give you a full ride that would be even better.

What kind of PI though?

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soccerfreak
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby soccerfreak » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:29 am

0LNewbie wrote:ETA: for that matter, I'm sure many on here would appreciate something similar for the STL firms.

I am one of the many.

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deebs
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Re: WUSTL 2L Taking Questions

Postby deebs » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:45 pm

Anyone looking to buy supps/books?

Civ Pro - Glannon Guide, Acing Civ Pro
Crim - Dressler casebook, Emanuels, Delaney Learning Crim Law
Con Law - Emanuel, Varat Casebook
Corps - O'Kelley casebook, Lexis Q&A
Tax - Wiedenbeck book, Chirelstein, E&E
Admin - Levin book, levin nutshell
Last edited by deebs on Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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