WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[NotSublime]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

With firms that ask for a CL, there should be a spot to upload them on their page on symplicity.

[ek5dn]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

With firms that ask for a CL, there should be a spot to upload them on their page on symplicity.

oh yeah woops! I see it. Thanks

[NotSublime]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

With firms that ask for a CL, there should be a spot to upload them on their page on symplicity.

oh yeah woops! I see it. Thanks

np!

[lososos]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

It's not necessary, but what you can do is make custom resumes for those firms that don't have a spot for a cover letter, by including a cover letter with your resume in the "resume" document. Idk how useful it is, but I did that for all the firms I applied to last year and got interviews with some that hadn't specifically requested cover letters. But, again, I doubt it's necessary

[hoos89]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

It's not necessary, but what you can do is make custom resumes for those firms that don't have a spot for a cover letter, by including a cover letter with your resume in the "resume" document. Idk how useful it is, but I did that for all the firms I applied to last year and got interviews with some that hadn't specifically requested cover letters. But, again, I doubt it's necessary

I honestly wouldn't do this. If firms wanted cover letters they'd ask. For most firms it's just going to be a waste of time and effort, but for some firms it might be seen as an inability to follow instructions.

[ek5dn]

just to make sure - for OCI bidding, there's no way to also send a CL, right? symplicity just forwards your resume + transcript?

It's not necessary, but what you can do is make custom resumes for those firms that don't have a spot for a cover letter, by including a cover letter with your resume in the "resume" document. Idk how useful it is, but I did that for all the firms I applied to last year and got interviews with some that hadn't specifically requested cover letters. But, again, I doubt it's necessary

I honestly wouldn't do this. If firms wanted cover letters they'd ask. For most firms it's just going to be a waste of time and effort, but for some firms it might be seen as an inability to follow instructions.

Oh, this is interesting - didn't consider the downside to doing this. I didn't do this for the EIW firms, but was thinking about it for some off-campus program firms. Now I'm not sure I should...

Did anyone else take the time to write cover letters for firms that didn't ask for them? Did it backfire?

ETA: It's just that if I were direct sending my applications to these participating firms, I would send them a cover letter

[ek5dn]

One more question! - If a firm says that it's required you be in a certain % (i.e., top 10%) and I am outside that requirement, is it a waste of time to bid for that firm? Do they make exceptions to their requirements?

[WheatThins]

One more question! - If a firm says that it's required you be in a certain % (i.e., top 10%) and I am outside that requirement, is it a waste of time to bid for that firm? Do they make exceptions to their requirements?

No, bid every firm.

[RareExports]

How long should we expect to wait before pre-select is announced? Bids were due last night.

[MtheG]

Last year, July 20-21 was EIW preselect release. The off campus programs come in much earlier.

[sublime]

One more question! - If a firm says that it's required you be in a certain % (i.e., top 10%) and I am outside that requirement, is it a waste of time to bid for that firm? Do they make exceptions to their requirements?

As wt said, bid every firm, or at least every firm you would accept if it was your only offer.

I was below the cutoff of the firm I am going to during oci.

[hoos89]

Oh, this is interesting - didn't consider the downside to doing this. I didn't do this for the EIW firms, but was thinking about it for some off-campus program firms. Now I'm not sure I should...

Did anyone else take the time to write cover letters for firms that didn't ask for them? Did it backfire?

ETA: It's just that if I were direct sending my applications to these participating firms, I would send them a cover letter

True you would send it by default if you were sending a mass- mail, but 1) I generally wouldn't recommend sending mass mail to OCI participating offices if and until you don't get a screener (and in any case it's really not the same thing to attach one to a mass-mail as it is to slip one into the resume slot of an OCI bid), and 2) by not requesting cover letters at OCI they are specifically requesting that you not send a cover letter with your bid. Sending a cover letter by attaching it to your resume has a lot of potential to come off poorly in that situation as some combination of trying to get an unfair advantage and wilfully failing to follow instructions. Which might be a reasonable risk to take...if it had much potential to pay off. But really a firm that didn't request a cover letter probably either won't read it or won't care about its contents. And let's not forget the opportunity cost: you'd be better off spending that time in other ways.

[Sprout]

Oh, this is interesting - didn't consider the downside to doing this. I didn't do this for the EIW firms, but was thinking about it for some off-campus program firms. Now I'm not sure I should...

Did anyone else take the time to write cover letters for firms that didn't ask for them? Did it backfire?

ETA: It's just that if I were direct sending my applications to these participating firms, I would send them a cover letter

True you would send it by default if you were sending a mass- mail, but 1) I generally wouldn't recommend sending mass mail to OCI participating offices if and until you don't get a screener (and in any case it's really not the same thing to attach one to a mass-mail as it is to slip one into the resume slot of an OCI bid), and 2) by not requesting cover letters at OCI they are specifically requesting that you not send a cover letter with your bid. Sending a cover letter by attaching it to your resume has a lot of potential to come off poorly in that situation as some combination of trying to get an unfair advantage and wilfully failing to follow instructions. Which might be a reasonable risk to take...if it had much potential to pay off. But really a firm that didn't request a cover letter probably either won't read it or won't care about its contents. And let's not forget the opportunity cost: you'd be better off spending that time in other ways.

Some of the smaller/midsize firms have a spot for cover letter but it isn't required. In those cases I always wrote one if I had time. Ime (got a few screeners at places like that) they seemed to be impressed with the specific interest in their firm. Also, it takes two seconds to slightly doctor a boiler-plate CL, so I found it was worth it. But I agree with above. I definitely would not attach a cover letter in a pdf with a resume for firms that specifically do not want them. As hoos said, I would save the majority of your CL focus to mass mailing (non-OCI and non-offcampus) firms.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

It's bittersweet to see that this thread is back on topic, but since it is: what sorts jobs are Wash U grads getting in the St. Louis area? There's a decent amount of info on how Wash U does with Stl Biglaw, but what about outside of that?

Thanks!

Lots of people in my class are trying to cobble together 2-3 part-time jobs, doing doc review, or trying to start their own firms. A few have insurance defense jobs making $45K/year with 70 hour workweeks. Some managed to snag public defender/state DA jobs in the rural areas. Many have simply given up and gone back to school for something else, or gotten a job outside of law.

Local firms really don't like hiring people unless you grew up and went to high school here, especially kids from WUSTL, because your average WUSTL grad wants to get the hell out of St. Louis as fast as he or she can.

A lot of people are really desperate. I try and not let it get to me too much anymore. For the first two years after graduation, I regularly contemplated suicide due to the hopelessness of my situation, and the lack of help anyone from WUSTL or elsewhere could give me. I spend my first year in Illinois, so I was eligible for Medicaid there, so at least I had healthcare, but when I moved back here, Missouri's one of those states where the legislature refused to expand Medicaid under Obamacare, so if you have no kids, you're not eligible for Medicaid no matter how poor you were. I really needed to see a therapist, but I didn't have access to one. I used to feel personally responsible for my school debt (I grew up with these values--you're responsible for paying back your debts). I used to get really down on myself because I was a failure.

Now, I no longer give any fucks. The joke's on "them" (i.e. the Federal government for allowing the scam of law school to just continue without trying to stop it; and maybe eventually WUSTL when in 10 years people take a look at the accounting of these student loans and they realize that hardly anybody's going to pay this back, and somebody form the DOE starts screaming at them asking WTF they're doing--of course, this goes for most law schools). I just keep on chipping away at my 25-year repayment plan, making $0 payments month after month. Eventually, I'll be 60 years old and free of this burden, but I won't have a house or a family, cause I'll never be able to afford one. But then again, between now and then, Wall Street will probably again scam most of the American public out of the equity in their houses anyway, and shoveling snow and mowing the lawn sucks. It would be nice to have a family, though, eventually. But I doubt that will ever happen anymore.

While a valuable reminder to people contemplating law school at all (let alone just WUSTL) to be smart before taking out significant debt, I feel compelled to note for any potential lurkers looking at WUSTL that this is very far from what is the norm for even the bottom of the class. Nothing against you, JCougar, because I think you graduated closer to the Great Recession, but I'm not aware of very many, if any, people from the last few years' graduating classes in this sort of situation. Even people towards the bottom of the class have found meaningful work, though perhaps less 'prestigious' or high-paying.

Thanks, both of you. It seems to me that the latter response is more aligned with what I've heard from recent WashU grads.

[valen]

For off campus employers in multiple cities (like Cadwalader, Kirland, etc), what was the consensus? Is it ok to apply for both cities or just pick one, assuming all are major markets?

And what about firms that are on oci and multiple of the off campus programs, just apply to them on all platforms?

[valen]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

[sublime]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

Ummm, a grad a few years ago went to Wachtell, so theres prob *some* chance just about anywhere.

Although honestly, it probably will take less time to just mail anybody than to try to figure out who won't hire you.

[hoos89]

For off campus employers in multiple cities (like Cadwalader, Kirland, etc), what was the consensus? Is it ok to apply for both cities or just pick one, assuming all are major markets?

And what about firms that are on oci and multiple of the off campus programs, just apply to them on all platforms?

For off-campus/OCI stuff just apply to all of them. Exception: for STL firms I'd suggest applying solely to the STL office, and I'd avoid indicating an interest in any other city at any point during the process.

[valen]

Thanks much

[WheatThins]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

Ummm, a grad a few years ago went to Wachtell, so theres prob *some* chance just about anywhere.

Although honestly, it probably will take less time to just mail anybody than to try to figure out who won't hire you.

But after a clerkship right? OP, Wachtel is probably not gonna happen. Anyone else, ok.

[sublime]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

Ummm, a grad a few years ago went to Wachtell, so theres prob *some* chance just about anywhere.

Although honestly, it probably will take less time to just mail anybody than to try to figure out who won't hire you.

But after a clerkship right? OP, Wachtel is probably not gonna happen. Anyone else, ok.

yea, Delaware Chancery it looks like and graduated summa. I'll post her profile since she adjuncts a weekend class:

http://www.wlrk.com/Amanda-L-Stein/

My point was mainly to just apply everywhere, not that it has a decent likelihood of happening (unless you are top 5%), maybe not Wachtell, but like everywhere else. WashU alone, for the vast majority of jobs, won't dq you even if it may be tougher.

[chingwoo]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

Ummm, a grad a few years ago went to Wachtell, so theres prob *some* chance just about anywhere.

Although honestly, it probably will take less time to just mail anybody than to try to figure out who won't hire you.

But after a clerkship right? OP, Wachtel is probably not gonna happen. Anyone else, ok.

yea, Delaware Chancery it looks like and graduated summa. I'll post her profile since she adjuncts a weekend class:

http://www.wlrk.com/Amanda-L-Stein/

My point was mainly to just apply everywhere, not that it has a decent likelihood of happening (unless you are top 5%), maybe not Wachtell, but like everywhere else. WashU alone, for the vast majority of jobs, won't dq you even if it may be tougher.

Annecdottaly but I've heard Wachtel will interview the top 2 or 3 people in the class.

[xxLawSchoolIsHardxx]

Also are there any employers that just plain won't look at wash u students, like maybe skadden? Anyone we just shouldn't bother with?

Ummm, a grad a few years ago went to Wachtell, so theres prob *some* chance just about anywhere.

Although honestly, it probably will take less time to just mail anybody than to try to figure out who won't hire you.

But after a clerkship right? OP, Wachtel is probably not gonna happen. Anyone else, ok.

yea, Delaware Chancery it looks like and graduated summa. I'll post her profile since she adjuncts a weekend class:

http://www.wlrk.com/Amanda-L-Stein/

My point was mainly to just apply everywhere, not that it has a decent likelihood of happening (unless you are top 5%), maybe not Wachtell, but like everywhere else. WashU alone, for the vast majority of jobs, won't dq you even if it may be tougher.

Annecdottaly but I've heard Wachtel will interview the top 2 or 3 people in the class.

Yeah and I'm the queen of England. How bout you get out of the thread with that bullshit you fucking liar.

[sublime]

Banned.

After FAR more warnings than you ever deserved.

[PresidentPepe]

Hi everyone. I'm a rising 2L. I have been very anxious about OCI's and off campus interviews and I just had a few questions.

How do you cope with severe anxiety before an interview? And what if you become visibly sweaty during interviews?

I hope everyone is enjoying their summer.