WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[Hannibal]

Well, technically there's nothing stopping a teacher at a school with a regular grading system to give 15 A+s and 15 C+s. It just doesn't happen.

[Total Litigator]

In the vein of WUSTL's grading system...

To me, it seems like there is a lot of room for crazy things to happen. For example, the median is 87. 90 Would represent an A at most places, right? Maybe 92/93 for an A+? So, what if a prof goes wild and gives people 99/100s. This is then averaged into the student's other grades, and gives a huge boost. So it seems like a top score can really make more of a difference than say, an A+ at another school. Is that right?

You are generally correct. However, the enforced median of the class is +/- .5 of all of the students' GPA's in the class. It is generally fair because if you have better GPA's in your class, your competition will be more difficult, but the enforced median grade will be higher. Same goes for the vice versa. Generally you will get the grade you deserve.

But yes, it is generally true that an A+ at another school (4.3), median 3.1; will have less of an effect than an 99 at Wash U (median 87). However, sub 76 grades and 95 plus grades are very rare (bottom/top 1% of the class). The goods news is that a 99 can skyrocket your term GPA, even balanced out with a bunch of 87's (and yes it does work the other way around too......) For example three 87's and one 99 will shoot you from a median term GPA (87) to a 90 (aka around top 25%). That being said, if you were able to get a 99 in a class, your other grades probably aren't going to be 87's, because you just pulled off Amazing.

Professors are generally told to enforce the curve according to approximate class rank equivelent of the number grades, so it works out very much like any other school.

Generally (and keep in mind I am definitely generalizing), as general class rank AND in class rank goes, a sub 80 will be bottom 5% (even though it represents a 1/3rd of the 70 to 100 grading scale); sub 84 will make up the bottom 30%; 84 to 89 will be the middle 30%, 89 to 92 will be top third to top 10%, 95+ will be top 1% ; and anything above a 97 will be top .5% or so.

[romothesavior]

In the vein of WUSTL's grading system...

To me, it seems like there is a lot of room for crazy things to happen. For example, the median is 87. 90 Would represent an A at most places, right? Maybe 92/93 for an A+? So, what if a prof goes wild and gives people 99/100s. This is then averaged into the student's other grades, and gives a huge boost. So it seems like a top score can really make more of a difference than say, an A+ at another school. Is that right?

92-93 is not an A+ here... I'd say an A- is like a 90, and an "A" is a 93 or so.

But you're right, some profs do go wild. I've already complained plenty on TLS that one property prof gave out 4 100s in one section. My property prof's highest grade was a 96 (and I was not far below it... I would have probably had a 100 or high 90s if my prof utilized this same grading style). Generally, things even out a bit, but some profs do give out some high grades, and some top out at about 95 or so. I wish there was a forced curve, but that's just how it goes. I think overall, the difference between sections over the course of the year isn't really noticeable.

Overall, I do like our grading system a lot. At most schools, you could have like 20-30 A- grades, which just seems silly to me. The best A- is probably a lot better than the worst A-, so why not reward that person who just missed out on the A with a higher grade than the person who just barely got above a B+? Our grading allows for and recognizes these differences, and every point really does help a lot.

[srilina]

Great information on this thread everyone - it has been super useful.

I don't believe this has been asked yet (apologies if I missed it): have any of you taken classes outside of the law school at WUSTL? Does it fit in alright with your schedule? I'm especially interested in language courses as I'd like to keep studying Chinese (glutton for punishment, I know).

Also, for getting SA and clerkships, etc. on the West Coast (either during summer post 1L or 2L) is that more up to you or does/can the school assist? (I know this has kind of been answered, but I'd love to hear some more on it!)

Thanks!

[myq]

Great information on this thread everyone - it has been super useful.

I don't believe this has been asked yet (apologies if I missed it): have any of you taken classes outside of the law school at WUSTL? Does it fit in alright with your schedule? I'm especially interested in language courses as I'd like to keep studying Chinese (glutton for punishment, I know).

I just talked to someone about this. We can take graduate-level language courses but not undergraduate language courses (well, we technically can take them, but they don't count toward our degree.) The problem is there aren't that many graduate-level language classes. I haven't checked the course catalog, but if your Chinese is good I'm sure they have some Chinese graduate courses that you can take. WUSTL also has a lot of Chinese LLM students that are fun to practice with and learn "legal Chinese."

I know the law school also offers a French class for law-related stuff, I'm not sure if they have done it with any other languages though.

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Great information on this thread everyone - it has been super useful.

I don't believe this has been asked yet (apologies if I missed it): have any of you taken classes outside of the law school at WUSTL? Does it fit in alright with your schedule? I'm especially interested in language courses as I'd like to keep studying Chinese (glutton for punishment, I know).

Also, for getting SA and clerkships, etc. on the West Coast (either during summer post 1L or 2L) is that more up to you or does/can the school assist? (I know this has kind of been answered, but I'd love to hear some more on it!)

Thanks!

I'll jump in here too, I suppose (I'm a 2L at WUSTL).

Yes, you can take classes outside of the law school. You are allowed up to 6 hours that are not part of the law school curriculum. However, these hours are not allowed to count towards your GPA. Further, you are allowed a total of 19 hours (someone correct me if my number is off) of credits that are pass/fail. These 6 hours would fall into that category.

That said, it really is pretty common for people to take one class in something else, especially during their 3L year. The most common ones, I think, are the B-School and the Social Work School, especially given that these are the most common joint degrees as well. But it is not unheard of for people to take less conventional things like French, Theatre, etc. I believe that you can only get credit for graduate level stuff (the B-School and Social Work School are pretty much auto-approved), but I imagine it would be worth asking about the undergrad stuff, as I do not know.

If you don't want to worry about actually having to do anything at all for a class such as Chinese, you can also audit it. This is something you can do with any class, including undergrad ones. I know a few people who have done that in subjects that they are interested in. Whether this counts towards your 6 hours allowed outside the law school, I cannot say for certain, but I imagine it does not since you are not actually getting credit when you audit.
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As for your second question, I think getting clerkships is sometimes left more up to you than you might want it to be. The school will help you, of course, but you really do have to spend some time pursuing it. They will guide you in helping to figure out how to apply for your stuff, but a lot of it is honestly left up to the judge and whether or not he/she wants you.

People in my class worked for State Trial, State Appellate, State Supreme Court, Federal Magistrates, and Federal District Courts during their 1L summers. They ranged from places like NC, GA and NY to MO, IL and CO, but I cannot honestly say that very many of them were on the West Coast. However, I do know that there are some judges that build up relationships, so to speak, with WUSTL in general. At least one of those is out in CA that I've heard of. I think it's definitely possible, but West Coast clerkships are a very small niche at this school. Don't expect to see a lot of that.

There is a clerkship program here where you can intern for one of the more local federal judges in the MO/IL area and actually get school credit for it. That is an easy way to get some clerking experience prior to graduation. But again, it is not West Coast.

[srilina]

I just talked to someone about this. We can take graduate-level language courses but not undergraduate language courses (well, we technically can take them, but they don't count toward our degree.) The problem is there aren't that many graduate-level language classes. I haven't checked the course catalog, but if your Chinese is good I'm sure they have some Chinese graduate courses that you can take. WUSTL also has a lot of Chinese LLM students that are fun to practice with and learn "legal Chinese."

I know the law school also offers a French class for law-related stuff, I'm not sure if they have done it with any other languages though.

Thanks Myq!

I'll jump in here too, I suppose (I'm a 2L at WUSTL).

Yes, you can take classes outside of the law school. You are allowed up to 6 hours that are not part of the law school curriculum. However, these hours are not allowed to count towards your GPA. Further, you are allowed a total of 19 hours (someone correct me if my number is off) of credits that are pass/fail. These 6 hours would fall into that category.

That said, it really is pretty common for people to take one class in something else, especially during their 3L year. The most common ones, I think, are the B-School and the Social Work School, especially given that these are the most common joint degrees as well. But it is not unheard of for people to take less conventional things like French, Theatre, etc. I believe that you can only get credit for graduate level stuff (the B-School and Social Work School are pretty much auto-approved), but I imagine it would be worth asking about the undergrad stuff, as I do not know.

If you don't want to worry about actually having to do anything at all for a class such as Chinese, you can also audit it. This is something you can do with any class, including undergrad ones. I know a few people who have done that in subjects that they are interested in. Whether this counts towards your 6 hours allowed outside the law school, I cannot say for certain, but I imagine it does not since you are not actually getting credit when you audit.
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As for your second question, I think getting clerkships is sometimes left more up to you than you might want it to be. The school will help you, of course, but you really do have to spend some time pursuing it. They will guide you in helping to figure out how to apply for your stuff, but a lot of it is honestly left up to the judge and whether or not he/she wants you.

People in my class worked for State Trial, State Appellate, State Supreme Court, Federal Magistrates, and Federal District Courts during their 1L summers. They ranged from places like NC, GA and NY to MO, IL and CO, but I cannot honestly say that very many of them were on the West Coast. However, I do know that there are some judges that build up relationships, so to speak, with WUSTL in general. At least one of those is out in CA that I've heard of. I think it's definitely possible, but West Coast clerkships are a very small niche at this school. Don't expect to see a lot of that.

There is a clerkship program here where you can intern for one of the more local federal judges in the MO/IL area and actually get school credit for it. That is an easy way to get some clerking experience prior to graduation. But again, it is not West Coast.

Thanks so much. I think I'll definitely be auditing if I have enough time for it! Another question, if you have the time...do you think that "West Coast" niche (whether it's internships, clerkships, jobs, etc.) is highly competitive at WUSTL or is it a pretty small group trying to get out there?

[Total Litigator]

Great information on this thread everyone - it has been super useful.

Also, for getting SA and clerkships, etc. on the West Coast (either during summer post 1L or 2L) is that more up to you or does/can the school assist? (I know this has kind of been answered, but I'd love to hear some more on it!)

Thanks!

I have anecdotal information only, but I'll be doing an externship with a federal district court judge this summer out West. It is true however that getting a federal district externship [and probably clerkship] in and around Missouri will substantially easier than getting one out West. Also sadly (strangly?) I was chosen for an interview by a clerk who was not aware of Wash U. My grades are also not stellar (decently outside the top third mark) so fortunately the judge's office took a more wholistic view of the app. However, I feel that because they chose my app without knowing anything about Wash U, when they later looked into the school it probably exceeded their expectations and helped me during the process (somewhat ironically).

I also imagine that doing an externship/SA out West your 1L or 2L year will help you a lot in getting a post grad job there, as it would show you're serious about working there.

As I said, this is very anecdotal, but I believe that the bottom line is that as long as you have the connections (and going to and doing well at a respectable West coast university will help as well) you can get a job anywhere. You will just have a bit more legwork to do.

Also, the school will try to help. Wash U doesn't have a whole lot of allumni on the West Coast, but for me, the CSO gave me an allumni list, and opened up a conversation with five of them. Those connections did not end up leading to jobs, but it was interesting. Also worthy of mentioning is that about 10 to 15% of the current Wash U class hails from the West Coast (mostly CA), as one of their current goals is to build their rep on the West Coast. This doesn't really help you in terms of current Wash U rep, but it does help in that the CSO is making a conscious effort to help West Coasters like us get back to the West Coast if that's where you want to be.

[Total Litigator]

Thanks so much. I think I'll definitely be auditing if I have enough time for it! Another question, if you have the time...do you think that "West Coast" niche (whether it's internships, clerkships, jobs, etc.) is highly competitive at WUSTL or is it a pretty small group trying to get out there?

And to answer your question it really depends: Are you talking about Washington, Oregon, or California? All three are very different markets. For example Oregon is quite an insular market, but it only has three small law schools, has a surprisingly large amount of government hiring (and sadly a small amount of firm hiring) it is not a huge destination for out of staters, and its not impossible to break into if you have the pre-law school connections (I'll be interning there this summer). California on the other had has 83 law schools (roughly lol), has a lot of out of staters (and in staters of course) competing for spots but there are a lot of public and private job opportunities. If your question is what the competition among Wash U students for West coast jobs is like, the question is really moot because that's not who you're competing with.

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Thanks so much. I think I'll definitely be auditing if I have enough time for it! Another question, if you have the time...do you think that "West Coast" niche (whether it's internships, clerkships, jobs, etc.) is highly competitive at WUSTL or is it a pretty small group trying to get out there?

I'm mostly deferring to Total Litigator on this one. But I think I can say with confidence that it is only about 5% ish, give or take, that is actually trying to get out to the West Coast. We do have alumni out there, just not as many as there are in Chicago, StL, and even DC, NYC, etc.

But I do think it is mostly self-selection. In my class, I know of at least 5 that ended up on the West Coast for their 1L Summers (CA and OR). And if you are gung-ho about getting out there, I think you'll be fine. Like Total Litigator said, most of your competition will come from people who are not at WUSTL.

[srilina]

Thank you both so much! Honestly, just hearing (multiple times, I know) that it has been done by others really gives me some peace of mind.

And total litigator, I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

[Total Litigator]

Thank you both so much! Honestly, just hearing (multiple times, I know) that it has been done by others really gives me some peace of mind.

And total litigator, I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

Ok sounds good.

For China or tech you're probably thinking Seattle or Silicon Valley area? I'm going to be honest and make sure I'm not billing Wash U as a national power house, you can definitely make it back to the West Coast to the state (or region if we are talking CA) where you are from and where you have connections. Where you don't have those connections, it's going to be much more difficult.

For example, if you're from Oregon you will be able to make it back to Oregon without stellar grades at Wash U. However, if you are from Oregon and you want to go to Washington or California (aka not the state/region your from) it will be significantly more difficult. Wustl is not a T10 (or close to it), so it doesn't have that truly national pull. If you really want to practice in CA or WA and your from Oregon, the best answer is probably to go to law school in WA/CA.

That being said, if it so happens that scholarship money / limited acceptances make Wash U a tempting choice, yes; it is possible to make it to the West Coast, especially CA, as this is where Wash U has been primarily estolling its repuation for the past few years and CA seems to naturally attract a lot of out of staters. I think Washington however, still is primarily the coveted domain of UW grads.

[seatown12]

I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

To be honest you better be getting epic $$$ to even think of attending WUSTL over Berkeley or UW for CA/Seattle. Also remember UW will be only $24k for 2L and 3L after residency waiver.

[romothesavior]

I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

To be honest you better be getting epic $$$ to even think of attending WUSTL over Berkeley or UW for CA/Seattle. Also remember UW will be only $24k for 2L and 3L after residency waiver.

That is assuming OP can get into Berkeley. But yeah, UW would be a solid choice.

edit: Just noticed srlina got into Berkeley. Unless you are getting a full ride to WUSTL, I can't see taking WUSTL over Berkeley for the West Coast. And even then, it is debatable.

[srilina]

I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

To be honest you better be getting epic $$$ to even think of attending WUSTL over Berkeley or UW for CA/Seattle. Also remember UW will be only $24k for 2L and 3L after residency waiver.

That is assuming OP can get into Berkeley. But yeah, UW would be a solid choice.

edit: Just noticed srlina got into Berkeley. Unless you are getting a full ride to WUSTL, I can't see taking WUSTL over Berkeley for the West Coast. And even then, it is debatable.

Yeah, I know. I do have another very compelling incentive for WUSTL though: my SO. Berkeley would make getting the kind of job I want a lot easier, of that I'm aware, but it sounds possible with WUSTL too and I don't want to give up the relationship if I can still achieve my career goals with another school. (it's definitely been difficult deciding...this thread has helped a lot though!)

[seatown12]

Yeah, I know. I do have another very compelling incentive for WUSTL though: my SO.

This is a tough situation and I can't advocate kicking the SO to the curb, but you are definitely taking a big risk and I hope he or she appreciates it!

[clearfire]

Does anyone know what the tuition costs are for the 2011-2012 year? Have they not released them yet?

[sambeber]

IIRC, total COA next year is slightly over $66,000, with tuition being approximately $46,000 of that.

[TatteredDignity]

45.5k

[Total Litigator]

I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

To be honest you better be getting epic $$$ to even think of attending WUSTL over Berkeley or UW for CA/Seattle. Also remember UW will be only $24k for 2L and 3L after residency waiver.

That is assuming OP can get into Berkeley. But yeah, UW would be a solid choice.

edit: Just noticed srlina got into Berkeley. Unless you are getting a full ride to WUSTL, I can't see taking WUSTL over Berkeley for the West Coast. And even then, it is debatable.

Yeah, I know. I do have another very compelling incentive for WUSTL though: my SO. Berkeley would make getting the kind of job I want a lot easier, of that I'm aware, but it sounds possible with WUSTL too and I don't want to give up the relationship if I can still achieve my career goals with another school. (it's definitely been difficult deciding...this thread has helped a lot though!)

And this is why I'm single.

And yes, I just saw your acceptances... unless the money you've been given is completely lopsided, Berkeley sounds like the right choice (SO nonwithstanding of course, lol). That is a school which has enough of an outstanding reputation that it can get you anywhere in CA, OR, or WA.

[Peg]

It looks like I'm going to be here in the fall and I'm really excited. =) Thanks to all the 1Ls, 2Ls, etc who answered all the questions I had about this school and helped me make my decision - you guys made a difference!

<3

[JCougar]

I'm leaning towards CA or Seattle-area. While I'm from Oregon, I don't see the legal field there fitting what I'd like to do (something China or tech related).

Barring ridiculous FA changes, I'll be at WUSTL next fall, so see you there!

To be honest you better be getting epic $$$ to even think of attending WUSTL over Berkeley or UW for CA/Seattle. Also remember UW will be only $24k for 2L and 3L after residency waiver.

Berkeley's cost has gone through the roof lately. For out of staters, it costs an atrocious amount (over $50,000 per year, plus a very high cost of living). That only promises to spiral further out of control given California's budget situation. By the time you are a 3L, you could be paying $60K per year. Even if you end up getting a CA biglaw job after that, such debt can be crippling. If you end up with $200K of debt after law school, your minimum payment on a 25-year repayment plan is almost $1,300/month. And that's over 25 years. If you want to pay off that much debt any sooner than that (such as in 10 years), you'll be paying about $25,000+ per year once you factor in compounding interest. Once you subtract that from your post-tax income and your inflated California rent, you're not exactly rolling in the money considering you will be working 70 hours a week. The fact that very few people last in biglaw more than 5 years or so is all the more alarming unless you plan to pay off your debt in 5 years or less -- in which case you'd have to live like a college student while you're doing it.

And Berkeley is no guarantee at Biglaw these days either.

I disagree that going to Berkeley at full price is a slam dunk compared to going to WUSTL with a substantial scholarship. With decent grades here and a little extra leg-work on your part, you'll be able to get a job in Oregon while saving yourself about a hundred thousand dollars, if not more. You might have to network more from here, but networking is a skill you'll have to learn as a successful lawyer anyway. It's only to your benefit if you learn it in law school. If WUSTL was offering something like $30,000/year, I would seriously consider it here, even over Berkeley.

[srilina]

That's definitely a big concern for me JCougar - thanks for laying out those numbers too, definitely more daunting put in terms of monthly installments than even that "lump sum" debt I had already been thinking about. I don't have any scholarships at Berkeley (yet...but I doubt one's going to pop up at this point in the game) and as an out of stater my loan total for 1L would be: 80k...not a pretty number to say the least! WUSTL hasn't given me the best scholarship either (15k a year - I'll try and negotiate but who knows), but it's definitely better than sticker price Berkeley. I'm not afraid to work and network my ass off, so I think it's doable. Thanks again for the advice and support! It has made a big difference.

[romothesavior]

That's definitely a big concern for me JCougar - thanks for laying out those numbers too, definitely more daunting put in terms of monthly installments than even that "lump sum" debt I had already been thinking about. I don't have any scholarships at Berkeley (yet...but I doubt one's going to pop up at this point in the game) and as an out of stater my loan total for 1L would be: 80k...not a pretty number to say the least! WUSTL hasn't given me the best scholarship either (15k a year - I'll try and negotiate but who knows), but it's definitely better than sticker price Berkeley. I'm not afraid to work and network my ass off, so I think it's doable. Thanks again for the advice and support! It has made a big difference.

I probably shouldn't be saying this in a pro-WUSTL thread (and I am very pro-WUSTL), but 15k at WUSTL doesn't hold a candle to Berkeley, especially for someone who wants the west coast. I'd even say UW is a better option. If you can't get WUSTL to significantly (and I mean VERY significantly) increase that scholarship, I'd say it would be a mistake to take it over these other options. Yes, Cal is expensive, but you're looking at 150k in debt for a school in a region you don't want when you have acceptances at two of the best west coast schools there are.

[Total Litigator]

Call up the WUSTL administration. Tell them that you are interested in attending WUSTL because your SO is there, but you have an admittance to Berkeley and w/o more money it will make your decision VERY difficult. I don't know what your numbers are, but whatever you do act fast, because the more WUSTL knows what its incoming numbers are looking like the less likely they are to give you a scholarship boost.

But if your numbers/rest of app is good enough to get you into Berkeley, my common sense says you should be getting at least a half scholarship from WUSTL.