WUSTL Recent Grad (and others) Taking Questions Forum

[romothesavior]

I am really really sorry, I went a while without responding to some PMs and I think a few slipped through the cracks. Let me find it and I will respond ASAP!

Short answer though: I think I would wait out the waitlists, as well as try to negotiate for more money at WUSTL.

[stratocophic]

I am really really sorry, I went a while without responding to some PMs and I think a few slipped through the cracks. Let me find it and I will respond ASAP!

Short answer though: I think I would wait out the waitlists, as well as try to negotiate for more money at WUSTL.

Agreed, but if you're completely committed to KC and not interested in Chicago or NY... paying back 200k from a T14 plus interest on a 110k salary (at best) is not gonna be fun, so I dunno.

If you don't really care where you work then take the money and run at KU, but if you want a decent shot at somewhere like Shook or Polsinelli then I'd squeeze WUSTL for every penny. 2/3 scholarship at WUSTL isn't bad though, that's probably less than 80k of debt and people frequently advocate going to places like UGA and UNC for about the same price and worse odds.

[2014]

It's NBD I'd still be interested in your opinion though and would be happy to resend it.

I'm surprised by the responses though, are you guys really that skeptical of WUSTL?

[romothesavior]

It's NBD I'd still be interested in your opinion though and would be happy to resend it.

I'm surprised by the responses though, are you guys really that skeptical of WUSTL?

Would I take NYU or Chicago over WUSTL at 2/3 scholly? In a hot second. I'd take CN over any T20, so it's not a knock on WUSTL. Michigan would make things tougher. I ED'd to Michigan and was waitlisted until mid-August. By the middle of the summer, I was willing to take 75k at WUSTL over Michigan, although I dunno if I would have been able to pull that trigger had they actually come through. If you got into Michigan, I think you should take it absent a full ride or close to it from WUSTL, IMO.

KU full ride vs. WUSTL at 2/3? I'd take WUSTL, especially if you really do have ties to STL because WUSTL could open up both markets (as well as other midwestern markets) that KU wouldn't be able to do open up.

[2014]

I have family in St. Louis who I am in no way close to, but interviewers don't and won't know that obviously.

When I sent the PM to you I was more optimistic about Michigan but have sense been WL'd though have a lot of green around me on LSN so I feel like I could get off of it, it would be at sticker though and that's a shit ton of debt for a school with a huge class and similar "Hey we don't really have a home market but o well" issues as WUSTL. I'm not particularly optimistic about chicago or NYU but with LSAT numbers down a ton you never know who will bite for a 175 :S

Such a stupid hard decision

[TatteredDignity]

I was in the exact same situation a year ago, without the T10 possibilties. I'll obviously never know how things would have turned out had I gone to KU, but I'm really happy with my decision so far. I have a few friends in the top 5 people at KU who struck out at OCI and are scrambling- scary stuff. Even if you're committed to the KC market like I kinda was, I think WashU is still the better choice.

[JCougar]

I don't even know about Michigan these days. The bottom half of the class there is probably just as boned as the bottom of the class here. The only difference is top third gets you a job there whereas top 20% gets you something here. So if you end up between 20-33% at Michigan, it might have been a better idea, but anywhere else in the class is pretty much in the same boat as us.

At this point, unless I would get into a T5, I'd take the money of WUSTL if its over 50%, rather than gamble more in a lower end T14. I've heard plenty of first and second hand stories about people being screwed at Cornell, Michigan, and Georgetown.

[seatown12]

"2014" you should decide what's more important to you: being in KC or being in Biglaw. The t14s increase your chance at Biglaw, but I don't think the extra debt is worth it if you really just want to be in KC. If that's the case you should pick Wash U and that fat scholarship.

[Kabuo]

Outline solicitation time. Any of you 2L/3Ls have outlines for Levin or Law you're willing to share?

[notedgarfigaro]

Outline solicitation time. Any of you 2L/3Ls have outlines for Levin or Law you're willing to share?

magarian or lim here...especially lim.

[stratocophic]

I have family in St. Louis who I am in no way close to, but interviewers don't and won't know that obviously.

When I sent the PM to you I was more optimistic about Michigan but have sense been WL'd though have a lot of green around me on LSN so I feel like I could get off of it, it would be at sticker though and that's a shit ton of debt for a school with a huge class and similar "Hey we don't really have a home market but o well" issues as WUSTL. I'm not particularly optimistic about chicago or NYU but with LSAT numbers down a ton you never know who will bite for a 175 :S

Such a stupid hard decision

Oh man hadn't seen your numbers. Speaking from the experience of having those combined with an engineering degree from a top 20 undergrad, they don't care about the 175. CCN aren't happening with that GPA and Michigan very likely isn't either. Sans an ED to Gtown or UVA the T14 isn't your friend. Don't mean to rain on your parade, just wanted to give you a heads up because I had the same thoughts you're having 2 years ago, though I'm happy with how everything turned out. I also fully endorse JCoug's post below.

ETA: admissions might well have changed in the last two years to where they'd take that GPA off a WL, but I wouldn't bank on it. I'd go forward with fingers crossed but expecting nothing from WLs.

[bouakedojo]

magarian or lim here...especially lim.

Hey, same here. Any Magarian or Lim outlines that I could solicit?

Also, are we in the same section?

[notedgarfigaro]

magarian or lim here...especially lim.

Hey, same here. Any Magarian or Lim outlines that I could solicit?

Also, are we in the same section?

yes

[2014]

I have family in St. Louis who I am in no way close to, but interviewers don't and won't know that obviously.

When I sent the PM to you I was more optimistic about Michigan but have sense been WL'd though have a lot of green around me on LSN so I feel like I could get off of it, it would be at sticker though and that's a shit ton of debt for a school with a huge class and similar "Hey we don't really have a home market but o well" issues as WUSTL. I'm not particularly optimistic about chicago or NYU but with LSAT numbers down a ton you never know who will bite for a 175 :S

Such a stupid hard decision

Oh man hadn't seen your numbers. Speaking from the experience of having those combined with an engineering degree from a top 20 undergrad, they don't care about the 175. CCN aren't happening with that GPA and Michigan very likely isn't either. Sans an ED to Gtown or UVA the T14 isn't your friend. Don't mean to rain on your parade, just wanted to give you a heads up because I had the same thoughts you're having 2 years ago, though I'm happy with how everything turned out. I also fully endorse JCoug's post below.

ETA: admissions might well have changed in the last two years to where they'd take that GPA off a WL, but I wouldn't bank on it. I'd go forward with fingers crossed but expecting nothing from WLs.

Yeah I wasn't counting on it. Making a decision to ride/bank on WLs would be synonymous with accepting the high potential of sitting out a year. My thought process though was that LSAT test takers are down for several administrations in a row by as much as like 20% for any given test. Assuming that it isn't a case of the bottom 20% suddenly becoming logical and pulling themselves out of the equation you have to figure there are 20% or w/e less 99th percentile LSATs flying around and someone might dip lower to help their median :S LSN had some non-URM acceptances in my range at NYU and Michigan had a ton, so I figured waiting next year and EDing would be give me a reasonable chance.

All that said, it's pretty clear that for this cycle the T14 isn't happening, and even if it did it would be at sticker which is a scary thought. I'm all but decided on WUSTL and am gonna do my best to see if I can negotiate for scholarships (though it doesn't look good, they are 100% formulaic).

[stratocophic]

I have family in St. Louis who I am in no way close to, but interviewers don't and won't know that obviously.

When I sent the PM to you I was more optimistic about Michigan but have sense been WL'd though have a lot of green around me on LSN so I feel like I could get off of it, it would be at sticker though and that's a shit ton of debt for a school with a huge class and similar "Hey we don't really have a home market but o well" issues as WUSTL. I'm not particularly optimistic about chicago or NYU but with LSAT numbers down a ton you never know who will bite for a 175 :S

Such a stupid hard decision

Oh man hadn't seen your numbers. Speaking from the experience of having those combined with an engineering degree from a top 20 undergrad, they don't care about the 175. CCN aren't happening with that GPA and Michigan very likely isn't either. Sans an ED to Gtown or UVA the T14 isn't your friend. Don't mean to rain on your parade, just wanted to give you a heads up because I had the same thoughts you're having 2 years ago, though I'm happy with how everything turned out. I also fully endorse JCoug's post below.

ETA: admissions might well have changed in the last two years to where they'd take that GPA off a WL, but I wouldn't bank on it. I'd go forward with fingers crossed but expecting nothing from WLs.

Yeah I wasn't counting on it. Making a decision to ride/bank on WLs would be synonymous with accepting the high potential of sitting out a year. My thought process though was that LSAT test takers are down for several administrations in a row by as much as like 20% for any given test. Assuming that it isn't a case of the bottom 20% suddenly becoming logical and pulling themselves out of the equation you have to figure there are 20% or w/e less 99th percentile LSATs flying around and someone might dip lower to help their median :S LSN had some non-URM acceptances in my range at NYU and Michigan had a ton, so I figured waiting next year and EDing would be give me a reasonable chance.

All that said, it's pretty clear that for this cycle the T14 isn't happening, and even if it did it would be at sticker which is a scary thought. I'm all but decided on WUSTL and am gonna do my best to see if I can negotiate for scholarships (though it doesn't look good, they are 100% formulaic).

FWIW I got 2/3 from WUSTL as well - definitely formulaic. If you're deadset on T14 then you could sit it out a year and ED to Northwestern, but I'm still of the mind that sticker's too expensive if you're interested in practicing somewhere that doesn't start at 160k or 145k. The problem's that lower T14s are no gimme for a decent job once you're around median, and secondary markets are pretty finicky with hiring since they have a very limited number of spots and are always prone to taking the top of local TTTs and regional schools. These people striking out from Michigan and such with mediocre grades aren't all from NY, so it follows that some or many have home markets with firms that evidently weren't receptive to taking in a student from a great school with just ok grades. Minimizing debt and networking in StL during the schoolyear and KC during breaks to try and maximizing your chances w/ smaller firms in case of a strikeout would set up a safety net for yourself that probably wouldn't be available from a T14 (b/c good luck paying off 200k w/ interest on a 60-70k salary).

Note that all of this is coming from someone who isn't comfortable with massive debt because the parental safety net's minimal and I dunno WTF I'd have done if I'd struck out after ED'ing to a T14, so take it with a grain of salt if you wish.

[thexfactor]

I don't even know about Michigan these days. The bottom half of the class there is probably just as boned as the bottom of the class here. The only difference is top third gets you a job there whereas top 20% gets you something here. So if you end up between 20-33% at Michigan, it might have been a better idea, but anywhere else in the class is pretty much in the same boat as us.

At this point, unless I would get into a T5, I'd take the money of WUSTL if its over 50%, rather than gamble more in a lower end T14. I've heard plenty of first and second hand stories about people being screwed at Cornell, Michigan, and Georgetown.

I disagree.

1. People below median get biglaw jobs at michshitgan. I cant say the same about wustl. According to NLJ250 numbers WUSTl is at 13% vs 37% at Mich. I don't think anyone below top 1/3 (prob top 25%) get biglaw jobs at WUSTL.

2. Also the quality of biglaw jobs are much better at Umich.
I would take Umich in a heartbeat unless I get a full scholarship at WUSTL. Even then I would prob lean towards Umich.

The problem is that WUSTL only places decent in the STL market. However, the STL market isn't very open to outsiders.

People have to realize that 3 years of life is a fixed cost of attending law school. time= money.

[soccerfreak]

magarian or lim here...especially lim.

Hey, same here. Any Magarian or Lim outlines that I could solicit?

Also, are we in the same section?

Well they do have Lim...

[bouakedojo]

Well they do have Lim...

Does she not teach any other sections, though? I thought she did.

[romothesavior]

I don't even know about Michigan these days. The bottom half of the class there is probably just as boned as the bottom of the class here. The only difference is top third gets you a job there whereas top 20% gets you something here. So if you end up between 20-33% at Michigan, it might have been a better idea, but anywhere else in the class is pretty much in the same boat as us.

At this point, unless I would get into a T5, I'd take the money of WUSTL if its over 50%, rather than gamble more in a lower end T14. I've heard plenty of first and second hand stories about people being screwed at Cornell, Michigan, and Georgetown.

I disagree.

1. People below median get biglaw jobs at michshitgan. I cant say the same about wustl. According to NLJ250 numbers WUSTl is at 13% vs 37% at Mich. I don't think anyone below top 1/3 (prob top 25%) get biglaw jobs at WUSTL.

2. Also the quality of biglaw jobs are much better at Umich.

The truth is somewhere between you two. People outside of top 1/3 can land biglaw from WUSTL, but it usually takes something like IP, diversity, awesome WE, a connection, etc. I do know a couple people outside top third with solid jobs with none of those things going for them though, so thexfactor, I gotta strongly disagree with you that no one outside of top 1/3 or 1/4 gets biglaw. That's just not correct, unless by biglaw you mean exclusively V100s or something.

On the other hand, more than top 1/3 at Michigan is getting biglaw, so jcougar is wrong as well. Hell, AIII + NLJ 250 in 2011 (the absolute worst year for data) was over 40%, if I recall correctly. Being median at Michigan still realistically puts you in play for an NLJ 250 SA at OCI. The odds of getting an NLJ 250 SA at OCI from WUSTL are incredibly slim. Also, thexfactor is right that the quality of biglaw jobs is going to be higher for Michigan students than WUSTL students.

I agree that absent a massive scholarship, Michigan >>> WUSTL. But I could see someone taking a 2/3s or something for WUSTL over Michigan if the situation were right. If you are from the Midwest (particularly Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, and maybe like Nebraska, Oklahoma, Indiana and Arkansas) and weren't gunning for super elite biglaw in NYC/Chicago/D.C., WUSTL at that price would be a fine choice, and that extra 100k might not be worth it.

[seatown12]

I agree that absent a massive scholarship, Michigan >>> WUSTL. But I could see someone taking a 2/3s or something for WUSTL over Michigan if the situation were right. If you are from the Midwest (particularly Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, and maybe like Nebraska, Oklahoma, Indiana and Arkansas) and weren't gunning for super elite biglaw in NYC/Chicago/D.C., WUSTL at that price would be a fine choice, and that extra 100k might not be worth it.

Your last sentence is spot on. I think it's easy for people who are biglaw-or-bust to forget that others do not necessarily have the same goals. For someone who wants to end up in a secondary market working for (potentially much) less than $160k, it doesn't really make sense to take on additional debt and move several states away in order to attend a school with better biglaw placement. A person in that situation would be better off doing this:

Minimizing debt and networking in StL during the schoolyear and KC during breaks to try and maximizing your chances w/ smaller firms in case of a strikeout would set up a safety net for yourself that probably wouldn't be available from a T14 (b/c good luck paying off 200k w/ interest on a 60-70k salary).

[thexfactor]

I agree that absent a massive scholarship, Michigan >>> WUSTL. But I could see someone taking a 2/3s or something for WUSTL over Michigan if the situation were right. If you are from the Midwest (particularly Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, and maybe like Nebraska, Oklahoma, Indiana and Arkansas) and weren't gunning for super elite biglaw in NYC/Chicago/D.C., WUSTL at that price would be a fine choice, and that extra 100k might not be worth it.

Your last sentence is spot on. I think it's easy for people who are biglaw-or-bust to forget that others do not necessarily have the same goals. For someone who wants to end up in a secondary market working for (potentially much) less than $160k, it doesn't really make sense to take on additional debt and move several states away in order to attend a school with better biglaw placement. A person in that situation would be better off doing this:

Minimizing debt and networking in StL during the schoolyear and KC during breaks to try and maximizing your chances w/ smaller firms in case of a strikeout would set up a safety net for yourself that probably wouldn't be available from a T14 (b/c good luck paying off 200k w/ interest on a 60-70k salary).

I agree to some extent. However, it is just dangerous to assume that attending WUSTL will give you a good chance at getting the jobs that pay 70k-90k in secondary cities. While midlaw does exist, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of those jobs available to new grads.
If you are ok with a 40-50k starting salary out of law school with minimal debt then wustl might be a good option.

[2014]

Got an email this morning about this SNR Denton summer deal.

How many people do they accept, did any of you guys do it, and does it provide a legitimate benefit?

[bouakedojo]

Got an email this morning about this SNR Denton summer deal.

How many people do they accept, did any of you guys do it, and does it provide a legitimate benefit?

I did.

It will not help you do better in school.

But there are a couple of benefits such as networking and making 20 friends before school starts. It should help a bit with nerves, too. They also give you a lot of good advice about the practice of law. And meeting Brad Winters is a treat, too.

[KellyFan2000]

A couple questions regarding Wash U:

1) The SNR Denton opportunity -- is this strictly for URMs? I noticed language regarding "socio-economic" considerations and wasn't sure what exactly that meant.

2) I was hoping some current Wash U students could comment on any of the professors who are considered "rock stars." (In the sense that their teaching abilities and credentials particularly set them apart.)

[romothesavior]

A couple questions regarding Wash U:

1) The SNR Denton opportunity -- is this strictly for URMs? I noticed language regarding "socio-economic" considerations and wasn't sure what exactly that meant.

2) I was hoping some current Wash U students could comment on any of the professors who are considered "rock stars." (In the sense that their teaching abilities and credentials particularly set them apart.)

1) As far as I am aware, not it isn't just for URMs.

2) In my experience and based on what I hear, some of the "rock stars" in the classroom are Tamanaha, Badawi, Pauline Kim, Greenfield, Goldwasser, Baker, maybe Drobak, and maybe Levin. These are the ones I most often hear as being great professors. Jane Moul is a very popular LP professor, and so is Koby. The best three doctrinal profs I have had are Tamanaha, Badawi, and Kim, hands down.