Page 39 of 53
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:30 pm
by SemperLegal
Rotor wrote:canon wrote:All of this talk about mutual respect is smoke and mirrors. Know this: if you're going to Berkeley, you are going to be surrounded by the most liberal people you've met in your life. You are going to school 20 minutes from one of the most liberal cities on the West Coast, let alone the fact that you'll likely be living in Berkeley itself -- we're talking gushing heart liberals. You will not be vilified (at least to your face), but there is unmistakably a dearth of conservative scholarship here. Yoo (who is an absolute treasure of a professor) and maybe Cooter (idk much), at least to my knowledge, are the sole exceptions. With Dean Edley at the helm and the Boalt student community's undying commitment to "progressive" issues -- you will be hard-pressed to find a rich dialogue here with professors or your peers. Boalt breeds blue lawyers because there is nothing red about this place.
The problem: conservatives are too scared to speak up. I can count on one hand how many people I know personally who hold conservative views -- and I'm "conservative." I'm not even really conservative -- I'm a moderate, but compared to everyone else I'm probably Sean Hannity. I don't doubt that there are many others who think like me, but they just don't speak up in class.
THAT SAID, I am seriously so happy I go to Boalt because politics aside, the people are amazing and I am having (another) time of my life here. I cannot imagine going anywhere else, sitting on the steps reading or having a picnic during the middle of the day with friends in January and February with a light jacket because it's 60+ and not a cloud in the sky. 2L feels like undergrad to me, and I'm not even a "slacker" student by any standard in my class. There are more things to life than politics anyway ...
Weather, grade system, job prospects, community, atmosphere, food >>>>>>> hyper-liberal atmosphere.
Just because your experience is different doesn't mean others' advice is "smoke and mirrors". Yes it is liberal. What law school worth the tuition isn't? Are there people with extreme views? Sure. But some of them became my best LS friends.
And don't make it out like Berkeley is some sort of mega-liberal amusement park! Get 3-4 blocks from campus and downtown/Shattuck and the town is just a town. If you don't want to support the co-op vegetarian-only pizza place (Cheeseboard) because they are communist, don't. But you'll be missing out on a fabulous pie. There are plenty of other places to go.
To my knowledge, no one has said that there is a wealth of conservative scholarship there. I'm sorry you and your handful of conservative friends are afraid to speak up. Dean Tom brings in people with diverse views for a reason. They want people to engage. They want different views expressed in class. If you perceive a lack of "rich dialogue" perhaps it's your hesitance and not the school.
I second Rotor, but I think I can see where canon is coming from. If you have conservative ideas, even one, and express it in class, the professors do strawman the hell out of you and assume you hold a whole bunch of other beliefs, but I think this is more a function of the Socratic Method than anything else.
I am pretty vocal about my love of guns, states rights, and free speech not limited by the veto of the offended. Its never been an issue.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:32 pm
by drmguy
Cheeseboard is communist?
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:13 pm
by Rotor
drmguy wrote:Cheeseboard is communist?
Well, it's a "Worker-owned collective since 1971." See
http://cheeseboardcollective.coop/
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:16 pm
by drmguy
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:56 pm
by Redamon1
drmguy wrote:
Cheeseboard is overrated IMO. Too greasy for my taste.
Any other pizza recs welcome!
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:55 am
by worldtraveler
Redamon1 wrote:drmguy wrote:
Cheeseboard is overrated IMO. Too greasy for my taste.
Any other pizza recs welcome!
Apparently former Cheeseboard employees opened up a new pizza place downtown, but I can't remember the name.
I also think Cheeseboard is overrated, but Zachary's is pretty good.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:57 pm
by canon
Rotor wrote:Just because your experience is different doesn't mean others' advice is "smoke and mirrors". Yes it is liberal. What law school worth the tuition isn't? Are there people with extreme views? Sure. But some of them became my best LS friends.
And don't make it out like Berkeley is some sort of mega-liberal amusement park! Get 3-4 blocks from campus and downtown/Shattuck and the town is just a town. If you don't want to support the co-op vegetarian-only pizza place (Cheeseboard) because they are communist, don't. But you'll be missing out on a fabulous pie. There are plenty of other places to go.
To my knowledge, no one has said that there is a wealth of conservative scholarship there. I'm sorry you and your handful of conservative friends are afraid to speak up. Dean Tom brings in people with diverse views for a reason. They want people to engage. They want different views expressed in class. If you perceive a lack of "rich dialogue" perhaps it's your hesitance and not the school.
The point is that most of the T14 is liberal sure, but Berkeley is probably the MOST liberal. And LOL if you think going 3-4 blocks from campus will get you away from that. This isn't the Peninsula. And just because someone eats at Cheeseboard doesn't mean they are liberal O_O.
Also, I never said there should be a wealth of conservative scholarship. I said there's a dearth. And I think it's fair to factor that into 0L decisionmaking. And dude, don't just assume that the other conservatives here are my "friends." I hardly know them. Lastly, it must be really easy to chide people for not being able to express their views when you hold views in the majority here at Boalt. You really think someone's going to voice their issues with the legal reasoning in
Brown v. Board at
Berkeley Law and not expect serious flack from their peers? Or at least flack masked in jest? Please.
I want to reiterate though that while most people will give you a hard time for it you probably won't suffer much in social stigma as long as you're not a rightwing nutjob. I wouldn't really change a thing about Boalt other than the lack of dialogue with conservatives, which only really comes up in classes like Con Law anyway. Shrug.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:12 pm
by Kronk
I have already said that most of the people here are liberal and the East Bay is liberal in general. It is probably the most liberal school in the T14, as I said above (Tanicius said it wasn't "liberal enough" and we had a small back and forth). That said canon, I don't think you're doing us any favors here bro or broette. Boalt is a very good community in general for viewpoints. I am very liberal, but as part of a religious student group I interact with tons of conservative people who love it here and have no problem expressing their views. I've heard them express it.
Also: three people have defended Scalia in class this morning alone.
Just sayin.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:21 pm
by drmguy
Kronk wrote:I have already said that most of the people here are liberal and the East Bay is liberal in general. It is probably the most liberal school in the T14, as I said above (Tanicius said it wasn't "liberal enough" and we had a small back and forth). That said canon, I don't think you're doing us any favors here bro or broette. Boalt is a very good community in general for viewpoints. I am very liberal, but as part of a religious student group I interact with tons of conservative people who love it here and have no problem expressing their views. I've heard them express it.
Also: three people have defended Scalia in class this morning alone.
Just sayin.
This is obviously made up. Berkeley has a ban on religion.
The only downside here is that there aren't more communist places to eat like cheeseboard.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:25 pm
by BerkeleyBear
Zachary's C.P. FTW
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:51 am
by Rotor
canon wrote:The point is that most of the T14 is liberal sure, but Berkeley is probably the MOST liberal.
You'll note I did not disagree with this statement. What I disagree with is the over emphasis that you put on it. Even the capitalization of MOST does a disservice to those who don't know Berkeley.
canon wrote:And LOL if you think going 3-4 blocks from campus will get you away from that. This isn't the Peninsula.
Hell two blocks in any direction other than Shattuck and--forgive my prior omission--along College. Everywhere else is residential or small businesses. And if "not strip-mall hell" [peninsula] makes Berkeley pervasively "liberal" then that it is.
canon wrote:And just because someone eats at Cheeseboard doesn't mean they are liberal O_O.
Never asserted that it did. If you read carefully I said if you--as a conservative--don't want to support a business that "right wing nut jobs" might call Communist you don't have to. There are TONS of other places around town that are just regular old restaurants and bars that don't implicate a liberal point of view.
canon wrote:Also, I never said there should be a wealth of conservative scholarship. I said there's a dearth
Fair point. I created a false dichotomy.
canon wrote:. And I think it's fair to factor that into 0L decisionmaking.
I don't disagree. I just disagree with the way you paint the place and by casting my opinion (and Kronk's and others) as "smoke and mirrors." You have your opinion. I have mine. And that's how I opened my reply.
canon wrote: And dude,
Don't call me dude.
canon wrote: don't just assume that the other conservatives here are my "friends." I hardly know them.
My bad. Such a violation of social norms to use the word "friends" when trying to be gracious to people who might just be acquaintances.
canon wrote:Lastly, it must be really easy to chide people for not being able to express their views when you hold views in the majority here) at Boalt.
It must be easy to ascribe opinions to me when you don't even know me. I spent 20 years in the military and anyone who knew my back story (I.e. everyone, on both sides of the aisle) would presume (correctly) that I am conservative before I even said a word. I *couldn't* just stay quiet and hide like you and the handful of people of whom you are aware (better?).
I believe that the federal government is a government of limited power and that the use of the Commerce Clause has undermined the 10th Amendment. I believe that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right. I believe that with the exception of certain industries, unions have outlived their usefulness and the average union management extracts more from employees in dues than it returns in value to its members. That the jobs belong to the employer not the employee or the union. I think Boweto was a pirate and international criminal and Chevron was within its rights to protect its property. I believe Citizens United was more or less rightly decided. Do you still have the audacity to presume that I hold views in the majority of Boalties?
That said I admit I am adamantly in favor of abortion rights. (I don't even have to couch it in the euphemism of right to choose). I am also adamantly in favor of gay marriage and celebrated the repeal of DADT. But it's not because I'm liberal--it's because it's none of my damn business. I believe the death penalty should be abolished, largely because I think the vast resources the state spends ensuring due process is not good value for the minimal deterrence.
canon wrote:You really think someone's going to voice their issues with the legal reasoning in Brown v. Board at Berkeley Law and not expect serious flack from their peers? Or at least flack masked in jest? Please.
Please yourself. My ConLaw prof (that "ultra liberal" icon now-Justice Liu) spent actual class time discussing the weak and since discredited science behind the sociology that Justice Warren rested the decision on.
canon wrote:I want to reiterate though that while most people will give you a hard time for it you probably won't suffer much in social stigma as long as you're not a rightwing nutjob. I wouldn't really change a thing about Boalt other than the lack of dialogue with conservatives, which only really comes up in classes like Con Law anyway. Shrug.
Again, your experience is clearly different than mine. Maybe it was because I couldn't hide in silence.
We agree. Berkeley is liberal. If you are conservative you will be in the minority. Are there individuals who won't sit next to you if you argue that Obamacare puts too much of a burden on small business? Probably. They aren't worth sitting next to anyway.
But for the vast vast majority of people, if you speak up they will too. You probably won't change any minds--but likely neither will they. They will probably come away thinking "how can he believe that?" just like you think about them. But the exchange will hone your beliefs on each side. And you'll share a beer together at bar review; invite one another over to dinner. Some might even become "friends."
Why so sensitive you ask? I almost self selected away from Berkeley because of its supposed "hyper-liberal" environment. That would have been a huge mistake that I don't want 0Ls to make. You can believe it if you want. This is just to show others that it's not just smoke and mirrors.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:13 am
by wert3813
How could I not go to Berkeley after reading this fun-ness.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:50 am
by Redamon1
wert3813 wrote:How could I not go to Berkeley after reading this fun-ness.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:34 am
by DreamShake
Redamon1 wrote:drmguy wrote:
Cheeseboard is overrated IMO. Too greasy for my taste.
Any other pizza recs welcome!
Blasphemy!! Corn and potatoes on pizza is divinity. Some other good spots...
-Zachary's is awesome--both the deep dish and "thin" crust (do not expect NY-style thin).
-Gioia's is good; they have a half dozen or so pies they alternate seasonally. The butternut squash is f---ing delicious. Crust isn't as good as that of either Zachary's or Cheeseboard, though.
-Rotten City in Emeryville is aight. More thin crust, but a bit greasy for my tastes. But...it delivers!!
-Lo Coco's is a full stock Italian restaurant, but their pies are delicious (albeit pricey).
-Blondie's is so-so, but super close to Boalt.
-I've heard good thing about Arinell's but haven't been there...I think they do real NY-style thin crust.
Between Zachary's, Cheeseboard, and Gioia, Berkeley's pizza is to die for.
Also...I had more than one person in con law speak up against
Roe (couched in terms of "I agree with the principle but not the reasoning")...I didn't notice any mean looks or other signs of consternation.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:48 am
by canon
Rotor wrote:canon wrote: And dude,
Don't call me dude.
LOL.
Rotor wrote:canon wrote:Also, I never said there should be a wealth of conservative scholarship. I said there's a dearth
Fair point. I created a false dichotomy.
canon wrote:. And I think it's fair to factor that into 0L decisionmaking.
I don't disagree. I just disagree with the way you paint the place and by casting my opinion (and Kronk's and others) as "smoke and mirrors." You have your opinion. I have mine. And that's how I opened my reply.
Rotor wrote:Why so sensitive you ask? I almost self selected away from Berkeley because of its supposed "hyper-liberal" environment. That would have been a huge mistake that I don't want 0Ls to make. You can believe it if you want. This is just to show others that it's not just smoke and mirrors.
Perhaps my wording was too strong, which seems to be why you're so sensi, but people were telling me the same thing as a 0L -- that Berkeley wasn't that liberal, that conservatives shouldn't feel pressured. But truly I think that was false then and it's false now. Berkeley/Boalt is
very liberal. And if a 0L were intent on joining a community that would ensure an earnest consideration of conservative viewpoint from its peers, then I would honestly tell them Berkeley would probably not meet that criterion. And you would tell them the opposite, which is fine, but hey, I thought that was painting an inaccurate picture.
See Kronk's comments on Page 38. I agree with most of them. However, citing the Federalist Society's "presence" (if we can even call it that) at Boalt as an example of mutual respect is bogus! My impression has been that people look down on FedSoc, even ridicule it. And that's what I wanted to call BS on. FedSoc has nowhere near the kind of participation or support as other student organizations. Why? Because our student body is super blue, no?
Rotor wrote:canon wrote: Lastly, it must be really easy to chide people for not being able to express their views when you hold views in the majority here) at Boalt.
It must be easy to ascribe opinions to me when you don't even know me. I spent 20 years in the military and anyone who knew my back story (I.e. everyone, on both sides of the aisle) would presume (correctly) that I am conservative before I even said a word. I *couldn't* just stay quiet and hide like you and the handful of people of whom you are aware (better?).
This is my bad because I mistook you for the original author I quoted who expressed s/he was liberal. Still, I never said I hid and don't speak up. I do, but that doesn't mean I don't feel serious pressure not to stir the pot because I know no one is going to back me up. Can we agree that people aren't as brave as you, or as vocal? And doesn't that lower the likelihood there will be a rich dialogue?
Rotor wrote:canon wrote:You really think someone's going to voice their issues with the legal reasoning in Brown v. Board at Berkeley Law and not expect serious flack from their peers? Or at least flack masked in jest? Please.
Please yourself. My ConLaw prof (that "ultra liberal" icon now-Justice Liu) spent actual class time discussing the weak and since discredited science behind the sociology that Justice Warren rested the decision on.
Hey, that's great to hear. I wouldn't have expected that from Haney Lopez or even Robinson. But my experience has been a little different: I have personally witnessed a lecture where the professor basically bullied someone advocating for Scalia in an extremely awkward, one-sided back and forth. How can we expect conservatives to speak up when shit like that happens? Sure, Dean Tom and the Admissions Committee may want an ideologically diverse incoming class, but that doesn't mean it's panned out here. Maybe the 3Ls are different.
Anyway, I'm not trying to do "us" as Boalties any favors here, just trying to put my perspective out there, no gloss. I personally don't think it should be a major factor in the decision. I'm sure all of the Boalties in this thread have great things to say about our school and how awesome it is to be here. I hope some of the negativity here doesn't turn 0Ls off -- I'd expect anyone admitted would take it with a grain of salt anyway. I won't belabor it anymore.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:28 pm
by Tanicius
What annoys me about the liberal culture whining is that it actually is pretty similar to most of Berkeley's peers. A professor bashing someone for agreeing with Scalia? LOL only at Berkeley amIrite?? And Of course the Federalist Society is looked down upon. I'd expect the same at Michigan, NYU, or Harvard. This isn't unique to Berkeley; it's a part of going to a professional school that isn't Regents or BYU. Most of us live in the real world and by the time we get into our mid-20's we happen to find it rather boring when someone suggests we could solve the world's problems with just a little more free market magic and a 220-year-old interpretation of the Constitution.
All in all, I say that Berkeley Law isn't that liberal because as devoted to public interest causes as people seem to be in class, 70% of us still take jobs at firms that are proud to defend clients like Citibank, Goldmann Sachs, BP, and the music industry. The fact that our students get involved with anti-human trafficking organizations or ridicule homophobic or misogynistic worldviews in class doesn't make us liberal. What it makes us is actually fairly run-of-the-mill as far as young adult culture goes. When I was a 1L, there was a person who spoke up multiple times with what I would say is a more traditional "Berkeleyian" view on racism and sexism in our classes, and the entire class of students practically laughed them out of the room each time.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:43 pm
by SemperLegal
Everyone goes to Fed Soc events because the food is delicious and the events are very well-run. They are always standing room only.
If anyone is so set in their ways that they won't listen to Yoo, Kozinski, or Sugarman speak while eating free food, you probably don't want to be friends with them. Also, if you know who they are, and you are not in LS, you are on friendship probation, nerd.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:40 pm
by Kronk
Sugarman is conservative?
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:30 pm
by SemperLegal
Kronk wrote:Sugarman is conservative?
No, but the Fed Soc sponsored an event with him discussing tort reform with some pro-reform policy wonk from DC. There was free Zebs lunches. Anyone who boycotts that talk is a chucklehead.
(Spoiler: Sugarman was opposed to tort reform).
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:47 pm
by Kronk
SemperLegal wrote:Kronk wrote:Sugarman is conservative?
No, but the Fed Soc sponsored an event with him discussing tort reform with some pro-reform policy wonk from DC. There was free Zebs lunches. Anyone who boycotts that talk is a chucklehead.
(Spoiler: Sugarman was opposed to tort reform).
I was going to say, he seemed VERY non conservative in class.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:21 am
by Tanicius
Sugarman's only a tort reformnist in so far as he'd rather see social safety nets cover the cost of injuries rather than the lottery that is our current jury trial system. Most tort reformists want to have neither a functioning tort system NOR a functioning social safety net. If Sugarman had his way he'd be more socialist than Ralph Nader, whom he has debated at length in support of various forms of tort reform.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:24 am
by matrim
So what is the rundown on weather for Berk? I have heard people say its always sunny and nice, others have told me its not regular "cali" weather (that its often cloudy etc)...i understand its nor cal..but whats the truth on weather?
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 am
by Tanicius
matrim wrote:So what is the rundown on weather for Berk? I have heard people say its always sunny and nice, others have told me its not regular "cali" weather (that its often cloudy etc)...i understand its nor cal..but whats the truth on weather?
The truth is honestly that there are four climates:
1.) Night (always cold, 40's-50's depending; take a jacket or sweatshirt with you whenever you're going to be out past sundown)
2.) Day + sunny (60's-70's depending)
3.) Day + cloudy (high 50's)
4.) Day + rainy (40's-50's depending; always carry an umbrella in whatever backpack you use, cause it can be unpredictable)
All in all, if you've ever experienced a
real winter, Berkeley is awesome. The only thing that makes it seem cold is that there is almost never any humidity, so once the sun goes down it seems to get
cold cold. I've learned to do a lot of silly things to avoid the temperature changes. For example, when I walk uphill, I try to walk in the shade so as not to get sweaty by the time I get to the law school, and when I bike downhill in the shade/at night I almost always to be wearing gloves. More generally I try to always have a long-sleeved shirt and an umbrella in my backpack no matter what time of day it is and no matter what the forecast is.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:32 am
by Redamon1
Tanicius wrote:matrim wrote:So what is the rundown on weather for Berk? I have heard people say its always sunny and nice, others have told me its not regular "cali" weather (that its often cloudy etc)...i understand its nor cal..but whats the truth on weather?
The truth is honestly that there are four climates:
1.) Night (always cold, 40's-50's depending; take a jacket or sweatshirt with you whenever you're going to be out past sundown)
2.) Day + sunny (60's-70's depending)
3.) Day + cloudy (high 50's)
4.) Day + rainy (40's-50's depending; always carry an umbrella in whatever backpack you use, cause it can be unpredictable)
All in all, if you've ever experienced a
real winter, Berkeley is awesome. The only thing that makes it seem cold is that there is almost never any humidity, so once the sun goes down it seems to get
cold cold. I've learned to do a lot of silly things to avoid the temperature changes. For example, when I walk uphill, I try to walk in the shade so as not to get sweaty by the time I get to the law school, and when I bike downhill in the shade/at night I almost always to be wearing gloves. More generally I try to always have a long-sleeved shirt and an umbrella in my backpack no matter what time of day it is and no matter what the forecast is.
Awesome recap. I moved here from the east coast, and I'm honestly still in disbelief at how much sunshine Berkeley gets (and how mild the winter is). A common misconception that I also shared for a time, was that Berkeley had the kind of fog that SF is notorious for. But because Berkeley is across the Bay from SF, the climate is different. While you see fog here sometimes, it is pretty rare and usually dissipates in the morning.
Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:34 pm
by matrim
Tanicius wrote:matrim wrote:So what is the rundown on weather for Berk? I have heard people say its always sunny and nice, others have told me its not regular "cali" weather (that its often cloudy etc)...i understand its nor cal..but whats the truth on weather?
The truth is honestly that there are four climates:
1.) Night (always cold, 40's-50's depending; take a jacket or sweatshirt with you whenever you're going to be out past sundown)
2.) Day + sunny (60's-70's depending)
3.) Day + cloudy (high 50's)
4.) Day + rainy (40's-50's depending; always carry an umbrella in whatever backpack you use, cause it can be unpredictable)
All in all, if you've ever experienced a
real winter, Berkeley is awesome. The only thing that makes it seem cold is that there is almost never any humidity, so once the sun goes down it seems to get
cold cold. I've learned to do a lot of silly things to avoid the temperature changes. For example, when I walk uphill, I try to walk in the shade so as not to get sweaty by the time I get to the law school, and when I bike downhill in the shade/at night I almost always to be wearing gloves. More generally I try to always have a long-sleeved shirt and an umbrella in my backpack no matter what time of day it is and no matter what the forecast is.
Thanks - I really appreciate it. Not to keep the thread "weather" focused, but how often is it rainy there? Not that this really affects my decision to go to Boalt or not - but I'd really like to know.