Boalt 1Ls taking questions

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:37 pm

jim-green wrote:
Rotor wrote:
jim-green wrote:From your understanding, was class of 2011 placement worst in history or just a very bad year and worse than 2010? Cal's class of 2010 had 10% more biglaw placement than 2011. I am wondering why. The recession began in 2009...confusing.
Class of 2010 was doing OCI in 2008 just as all heck was breaking loose. Many in that class likely landed jobs in preITE-sized classes. Their pain came on the back end with no-offers and deferrals, but at least there was a greater opportunity to land the job. Class of 2011 did OCI in 2009. Despite it being tough on the individuals who suffered through it, the class as a whole held its own (rank-wise if not %-wise).
Thanks, this is very helpful. I am not a troll, just someone who has been out of school for 15 years, hence the next few questions. Wouldn't Class of 2010 have done OCI in 2009 (2L year)? Does OCI happen 2-years before graduation? I thought OCI happens just before the 2L summer. I interviewed for all my summer internships in engineering school a few months before those summers.
By 'the class as a whole held its own (rank-wise if not %-wise),' do you mean the % of the class getting into biglaw may have dropped by 10%, but they held their own in relation to other schools?
I was impressed by the ATL link you sent that shows Cal is 6th in NLJ jobs. I have been choosing between CLS and Cal, there is a 20% difference in biglaw hiring between the two, which makes CLS very attractive. However, I wonder if that may be because CLS is in NYC and its students may self-select biglaw over PI. Maybe the 15% of Cal's class that is doing PI never wanted biglaw in the first place and in fact could have gotten it if they desired. That would make Cal's real biglaw placement ability stronger than the apparent figure, and safer for me than it seems.


There's a 20% difference by what metric?

And yes, you do OCI 2 years before graduation (sort of). You do it just before starting your second year, then have two academic years left.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Kronk wrote:There's a 20% difference by what metric?
Cal's employment statistic website says 32% of the 2011 class is in firms > 501 attorneys, while CLS's website says 51% of their class is in firms > 501 attorneys. Did I read it wrong?

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hume85
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby hume85 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:47 pm

jim-green wrote:
Kronk wrote:There's a 20% difference by what metric?
Cal's employment statistic website says 32% of the 2011 class is in firms > 501 attorneys, while CLS's website says 51% of their class is in firms > 501 attorneys. Did I read it wrong?


You may not have read it wrong, but you are using the wrong metric. Most people use the NLJ 250 (the nation's 250 largest firms by number of lawyers) to identify Biglaw firms. Other people use the Vault 100. I have met few people that use % of students with law firms that have headcounts greater than 500.
Your metric is the wrong metric because it omits a number of very good Biglaw firms. These include Wachtell Lipton, Cravath, Jenner and Block, Crowell and Moring, Kasowitz Benson, and many others.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:50 pm

hume85 wrote:
jim-green wrote:
Kronk wrote:There's a 20% difference by what metric?
Cal's employment statistic website says 32% of the 2011 class is in firms > 501 attorneys, while CLS's website says 51% of their class is in firms > 501 attorneys. Did I read it wrong?
You may not have read it wrong, but ... include Wachtell Lipton, Cravath, Jenner and Block, Crowell and Moring, Kasowitz Benson, and many others.
Ah, I see, so NLJ is a better metric for biglaw than firms > 501 attorneys? I did not know that. Well, in that case the gap between CLS and Cal in biglaw placements narrows considerably. Do the firms you mention pay market rate? I thought only firms > 501 attorneys pay market rate.

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hume85
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby hume85 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:00 pm

jim-green wrote:
hume85 wrote:
jim-green wrote:
Kronk wrote:There's a 20% difference by what metric?
Cal's employment statistic website says 32% of the 2011 class is in firms > 501 attorneys, while CLS's website says 51% of their class is in firms > 501 attorneys. Did I read it wrong?
You may not have read it wrong, but ... include Wachtell Lipton, Cravath, Jenner and Block, Crowell and Moring, Kasowitz Benson, and many others.
Ah, I see, so NLJ is a better metric for biglaw than firms > 501 attorneys? I did not know that. Well, in that case the gap between CLS and Cal in biglaw placements narrows considerably. Do the firms you mention pay market rate? I thought only firms > 501 attorneys pay market rate.


Many firms with less than 500 attorneys pay market. WLRK pays above market (salary+bonus), Williams and Connolly pays above market (only salary) and Cravath often sets the market (bonuses). Many of the other firms to which I alluded pay market as well. Some do not, but they usually are not far from the market, and if they are it is usually because they are in secondary markets with lower COL. If you focus exclusively on firms with over 500 attorneys, you will exclude many of the very best firms in the country.
Last edited by hume85 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:10 pm

hume85 wrote:WLRK pays above market, and Cravath often sets the market. Many of the other firms to which I alluded pay market as well. Some do not, but they usually aren't far from the market, and if they are it is usually because they are in secondary markets with lower COL.
Thanks, I am learning a lot. If you have a min, my wife's got a question for you. Are Berkeley's streets flat, or hilly like SF? We have a manual car that we drive and are bringing to Cal, but she doesn't like driving it in hilly areas, and refuses to drive it on streets like we see in movies set in SF. I don't want to buy a 2nd car what with my soon-to-be debt or even sell my present car because I put a lot of $$ into it in Feb.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby wurst » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:28 pm

jim-green wrote:
hume85 wrote:WLRK pays above market, and Cravath often sets the market. Many of the other firms to which I alluded pay market as well. Some do not, but they usually aren't far from the market, and if they are it is usually because they are in secondary markets with lower COL.
Thanks, I am learning a lot. If you have a min, my wife's got a question for you. Are Berkeley's streets flat, or hilly like SF? We have a manual car that we drive and are bringing to Cal, but she doesn't like driving it in hilly areas, and refuses to drive it on streets like we see in movies set in SF. I don't want to buy a 2nd car what with my soon-to-be debt or even sell my present car because I put a lot of $$ into it in Feb.


I can answer this. I lived near campus for years. The vast majority of Berkeley's streets are flat. However, many of the streets directly northeast and southeast of campus are hilly. So, it will depend on where you live. If you live directly northeast of campus, you can expect some hills. But if you are living west of College Ave on the south side of campus or west of Oxford on the north side of campus, you have nothing about which to worry. Even if you live on a hilly street it won't be too crazy; most of the places you will be driving in Berkeley will not be hilly. It will just be hilly in the few blocks near your residence. An additional consideration is that if you want to drive up to Tilden Park to hike or picnic there will be some very steep hills.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:42 pm

wurst wrote:I can answer this. I lived near campus for years. ... An additional consideration is that if you want to drive up to Tilden Park to hike or picnic there will be some very steep hills.
Thanks, this helps a lot! I really did not want to spend the next year looking for a new wife.

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Rotor
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Rotor » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:25 pm

wurst wrote:
jim-green wrote:
hume85 wrote:WLRK pays above market, and Cravath often sets the market. Many of the other firms to which I alluded pay market as well. Some do not, but they usually aren't far from the market, and if they are it is usually because they are in secondary markets with lower COL.
Thanks, I am learning a lot. If you have a min, my wife's got a question for you. Are Berkeley's streets flat, or hilly like SF? We have a manual car that we drive and are bringing to Cal, but she doesn't like driving it in hilly areas, and refuses to drive it on streets like we see in movies set in SF. I don't want to buy a 2nd car what with my soon-to-be debt or even sell my present car because I put a lot of $$ into it in Feb.


I can answer this. I lived near campus for years. The vast majority of Berkeley's streets are flat. However, many of the streets directly northeast and southeast of campus are hilly. So, it will depend on where you live. If you live directly northeast of campus, you can expect some hills. But if you are living west of College Ave on the south side of campus or west of Oxford on the north side of campus, you have nothing about which to worry. Even if you live on a hilly street it won't be too crazy; most of the places you will be driving in Berkeley will not be hilly. It will just be hilly in the few blocks near your residence. An additional consideration is that if you want to drive up to Tilden Park to hike or picnic there will be some very steep hills.

Here's a map available on the Berkeley city website that has some indication of the steepness of the hills block by block. http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/uploadedFi ... lk_map.pdf

Light pink is probably OK for anyone who has experience with a stick. Medium pink steep. Dark pink is CRAZY steep and even experienced stick drivers should avoid. In other words, don't live on Marin Ave.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:51 pm

Rotor wrote:Here's a map available on the Berkeley city website that has some indication of the steepness of the hills block by block. http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/uploadedFi ... lk_map.pdf. Light pink is probably OK for anyone who has experience with a stick. Medium pink steep. Dark pink is CRAZY steep and even experienced stick drivers should avoid. In other words, don't live on Marin Ave.
Thanks, this is clear, I see now what wurst meant when she said NE and SE are hilly. The Elmwood area seems all white so that should be safe. What are the purple lines on Telegraph? Oh wait, the legend says they are bike paths.
Any good brewpubs in Berkeley? Hold that thought. I just read the menus and beer lists of Triple Rock, Jupiter and Pyramid, and it is going to absolutely SUCK having no $$$ the next 3 years. Perhaps I can defer by a year, move to Berkeley just to get acquainted with the city while keeping my job and salary, and then begin law school in 2013. Let me think.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby 005618502 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:50 am

Question for you guys, does all Ps (passes) for 1L year put you below median?

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:51 am

AssumptionRequired wrote:Question for you guys, does all Ps (passes) for 1L year put you below median?


Yes.

Virgil777
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Virgil777 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:48 pm

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Last edited by Virgil777 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Redamon1 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:54 pm

Virgil777 wrote:I am trying to buy some used supplements on Amazon while the supply is large and the demand is very low (just got 6th edition Civ Pro E&E for $4). My question is: What do you recommend for Contracts, Property, and Torts?


And is there a downside to buying books (supplements or otherwise) before the start of the school year? I mean, don't editions change from year to year, and won't profs have recommended or required lists? I suppose I'm trying to find out what stuff one can "safely" buy ahead at this stage...

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby CoconutP » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:20 pm

How many of you are paying sticker? Do you believe it is worth it, particularly for someone who can't see themselves working in BigLaw? Sorry if a lot of this has been covered, I've read at least 10 pages of this thread by the way.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:53 pm

CoconutP wrote:How many of you are paying sticker? Do you believe it is worth it, particularly for someone who can't see themselves working in BigLaw? Sorry if a lot of this has been covered, I've read at least 10 pages of this thread by the way.
I am very worried I am doing this. My LSAT is above Cal's 75th and I wonder if I am getting shafted.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:53 am

CoconutP wrote:How many of you are paying sticker? Do you believe it is worth it, particularly for someone who can't see themselves working in BigLaw? Sorry if a lot of this has been covered, I've read at least 10 pages of this thread by the way.


Well, what do you want to do if not BigLaw? Our LRAP program is one of the best in the country, and if you see yourself working 501(c)(3) jobs or government jobs, your loans are gone in ten years without a tax bomb. And our students petitioned Berkeley to update the LRAP program to protect those kids in case the federal IBRs go away and etc, so it's one of the best in the nation. I actually think it will be more calm repaying loans outside of BigLaw at sticker.

If I knew I was going the BigLaw route and was going to have to repay all my loans myself, I would take a scholarship to somewhere like UVa, Duke, Chicago, Penn, Michigan, etc. if it would be considerably less.

If you don't want BigLaw but don't want to work in PI and government stuff, I would definitely be terrified of taking sticker at Berkeley.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby CoconutP » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:20 am

If you don't want BigLaw but don't want to work in PI and government stuff, I would definitely be terrified of taking sticker at Berkeley.


I agree with this statement. But that in addition to judicial clerkships and academia, what else is there?

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:35 am

CoconutP wrote:
If you don't want BigLaw but don't want to work in PI and government stuff, I would definitely be terrified of taking sticker at Berkeley.


I agree with this statement. But that in addition to judicial clerkships and academia, what else is there?


Any sort of private law, really. Some of them will still pay a lot. I worked for a solo guy that makes 300k a year doing unprestigious benefits law, but I don't think that's the norm. But there are a lot of smaller, lower paying law firms and law firms that specialize in specific areas that would sit you anywhere from 50k-100k and that would be very difficult with the debt I think.

Judicial clerkships still qualify for some LRAP I think, and academia obviously you'd be making bank, so it wouldn't be quite as important.

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Rotor
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Rotor » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:09 am

Kronk wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Question for you guys, does all Ps (passes) for 1L year put you below median?


Yes.

CDO estimates that half H/half P is median. Of course, some of that will depend on whether the Hs are in the 5 credit classes or 4 credit classes.

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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:29 am

Rotor wrote:
Kronk wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Question for you guys, does all Ps (passes) for 1L year put you below median?


Yes.

CDO estimates that half H/half P is median. Of course, some of that will depend on whether the Hs are in the 5 credit classes or 4 credit classes.


I feel like that estimate is a bit high, but really our grading system is kind of muddled so unless you are on the extremes it's tough to tell.

jim-green
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby jim-green » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:50 am

Kronk wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:Question for you guys, does all Ps (passes) for 1L year put you below median?
Yes.
From your anecdotal evidence, did students with all Ps get biglaw at OCI? What about EE majors?

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FavoriteColorGRUE
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby FavoriteColorGRUE » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:39 am

Redamon1 wrote:
Virgil777 wrote:I am trying to buy some used supplements on Amazon while the supply is large and the demand is very low (just got 6th edition Civ Pro E&E for $4). My question is: What do you recommend for Contracts, Property, and Torts?


And is there a downside to buying books (supplements or otherwise) before the start of the school year? I mean, don't editions change from year to year, and won't profs have recommended or required lists? I suppose I'm trying to find out what stuff one can "safely" buy ahead at this stage...



Curious about this as well

Virgil777
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Virgil777 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 pm

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Last edited by Virgil777 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tanicius
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Don't buy supplements until you know who your professors are. Some of the professors wrote the supplements, and if you get one who did, you'll want to buy theirs and not another.




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