Boalt 1Ls taking questions

[gymboree]

Boalt has certificate programs in:
Business
International Law
Environmental Law
Law & Technology (which includes IP)
...these are the ones I'm aware of, there may be others.

see here:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/8431.htm

[mrmangs]

Typical TLS hair splitting. Haas is in the same league as Wharton.

That being said, you don't need the MBA to equip yourself for success in business. It will cost you more and take more time.

Just to clarify, I am only to speaking to how it is considered... Not how it should be considered. There is an East Coast bias when it comes to prestige, rankings, name recognition, etc. I'm guess the quality of education is the same or even better at Haas (although the potential networking opportunities I'm less sure of). Suffice it to say, both are top MBA programs and both are worth attending (which is more than you can say for the majority of MBA programs out there).

I agree with your second sentence. Getting an MBA with a JD is a waste of time and money in most cases.

[d34d9823]

Just to clarify, I am only to speaking to how it is considered... Not how it should be considered. There is an East Coast bias when it comes to prestige, rankings, name recognition, etc.

I don't think this is really true as Stanford is widely respected. The top business schools will always be Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, just like HYS for law.

[mrmangs]

Just to clarify, I am only to speaking to how it is considered... Not how it should be considered. There is an East Coast bias when it comes to prestige, rankings, name recognition, etc.

I don't think this is really true as Stanford is widely respected. The top business schools will always be Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, just like HYS for law.

Just because Stanford is widely respected doesn't mean other West Coast schools don't get shafted.

[d34d9823]

Just to clarify, I am only to speaking to how it is considered... Not how it should be considered. There is an East Coast bias when it comes to prestige, rankings, name recognition, etc.

I don't think this is really true as Stanford is widely respected. The top business schools will always be Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, just like HYS for law.

Just because Stanford is widely respected doesn't mean other West Coast schools don't get shafted.

True, but IIRC Haas is ranked 7th, which is in line with Berkeley's prestige in other fields. Taken with the fact that Stanford is widely considered just as good as Harvard, I find it hard to believe that there is any bias.

[ahduth]

Just to clarify, I am only to speaking to how it is considered... Not how it should be considered. There is an East Coast bias when it comes to prestige, rankings, name recognition, etc.

I don't think this is really true as Stanford is widely respected. The top business schools will always be Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, just like HYS for law.

Just because Stanford is widely respected doesn't mean other West Coast schools don't get shafted.

True, but IIRC Haas is ranked 7th, which is in line with Berkeley's prestige in other fields. Taken with the fact that Stanford is widely considered just as good as Harvard, I find it hard to believe that there is any bias.

Whatever the rankings say (there are several for b-schools, and I don't know which is one more relevant for what purpose), you rarely hear Haas grouped in with that top tier of schools (Harvard, Wharton, Sloan, Chicago, Stanford, Kellogg, Stern, Columbia). It probably gets more traction in the Bay Area I'm guessing? Probably a lot of tech companies and consulting firms send their managers there.

Which brings me to a further point, which is that the whole idea of "bias" in b-school rankings is a bit flawed. B-school is very much about networking and exchanging ideas with classmates/future colleagues. If a school does not have a stellar reputation, the best people will not go there, meaning it will continue to not have a stellar reputation, and so on. The rankings are garbage to some extent (USNWR doesn't even include INSEAD and IE, and Businessweek puts them in a separate category). At the end of the day however, Wharton is going to place a great deal more people with Goldman than Haas, and this is why it will continue to be considered a "better" business school. I certainly don't want to bash Haas, it no doubt places quite well in Silicon Valley, and if I attend Berkeley I will have to look into a joint degree considering my career direction. But I would not pay the extra money expecting to be treated like a Wharton graduate.

[r6_philly]

At the end of the day however, Wharton is going to place a great deal more people with Goldman than Haas, and this is why it will continue to be considered a "better" business school.

The word Goldman comes out in each and every conversation with or about a Wharton student around here, so I suspect they place very well there.

[ahduth]

At the end of the day however, Wharton is going to place a great deal more people with Goldman than Haas, and this is why it will continue to be considered a "better" business school.

The word Goldman comes out in each and every conversation with or about a Wharton student around here, so I suspect they place very well there.

It's a very finance-oriented school (along with Chicago, Stern and maybe... Sloan? Not sure what Sloan is best known for, aside from pumping out rock stars).

[mrmangs]

Which brings me to a further point, which is that the whole idea of "bias" in b-school rankings is a bit flawed. B-school is very much about networking and exchanging ideas with classmates/future colleagues. If a school does not have a stellar reputation, the best people will not go there, meaning it will continue to not have a stellar reputation, and so on. The rankings are garbage to some extent (USNWR doesn't even include INSEAD and IE, and Businessweek puts them in a separate category). At the end of the day however, Wharton is going to place a great deal more people with Goldman than Haas, and this is why it will continue to be considered a "better" business school. I certainly don't want to bash Haas, it no doubt places quite well in Silicon Valley, and if I attend Berkeley I will have to look into a joint degree considering my career direction. But I would not pay the extra money expecting to be treated like a Wharton graduate.

This is very fair. In fact, if you speak to a lot of MBA graduates, while they might have enjoyed and appreciated the time they took getting their MBAs, they laugh at the idea that it taught them very much (aside from shoring up finance, accounting, and some other quantitative skills, and one hardly needs to attend an MBA program to gain competence in these areas). The real value of an MBA for a business person is networking, plain and simple.

Also, as ahduth pointed out, the USNWR isn't the be all and end all of B school rankings. When I spoke to an East Coast rankings bias, however, I was pointing out a general trend (i.e., not talking about B school rankings specifically).

[Ialdabaoth]

Boalt has certificate programs in:
Business
International Law
Environmental Law
Law & Technology (which includes IP)
...these are the ones I'm aware of, there may be others.

see here:
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/8431.htm

Also, for people interested in energy-related business, the new Energy & Clean Technology Law curricular program seems really interesting: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/9694.htm

This program was also discussed in the video that gymboree posted earlier. Thanks again for that by the way! The above link also shows the full list of all the curricular programs (including Law & Econ, Comparative, and Social Justice in addition to all others already mentioned).

[Tangerine Gleam]

Hey, I've got a question for current Boalt students. It's about class ranking for clerkships.

I understand that ranking occurs by distributing a certain number of points for each grade. I have heard that P=2, H=3, and HH=5, but I'm not sure if that is true.

But if it is true, how does this play out in terms of credit units? Is a P in a 2-unit class weighed the same as a P in a 5-unit class? Or is it multiplied for each credit (i.e. a P in a 5-unit class would mean 10 "points" whereas a P in a 2-unit class would mean 4 "points")?

[Rotor]

Hey, I've got a question for current Boalt students. It's about class ranking for clerkships.

I understand that ranking occurs by distributing a certain number of points for each grade. I have heard that P=2, H=3, and HH=5, but I'm not sure if that is true.

But if it is true, how does this play out in terms of credit units? Is a P in a 2-unit class weighed the same as a P in a 5-unit class? Or is it multiplied for each credit (i.e. a P in a 5-unit class would mean 10 "points" whereas a P in a 2-unit class would mean 4 "points")?

I didn't see it in the Academic Rules (where it should be, but maybe I missed it). But I did find your answer here: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/190.htm. As you guessed, you do multiply by credits.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Great, thanks Rotor!

[clone22]

So what's the consensus on career opportunities coming out of boalt? Is it reasonable to expect biglaw if you're willing to dedicate the effort to work your ass off in school? Would it be prudent to take out 130k+ debt expecting to pay it back without needing to IBR or use berkeley's lrap? Any stats on this sort of thing?

thanks

[r6_philly]

When can we find placement numbers from last year's class?

How's summer job hunting going?

[Kronk]

So what's the consensus on career opportunities coming out of boalt? Is it reasonable to expect biglaw if you're willing to dedicate the effort to work your ass off in school? Would it be prudent to take out 130k+ debt expecting to pay it back without needing to IBR or use berkeley's lrap? Any stats on this sort of thing?

thanks

I think it's reasonable to expect, but you can't really just work hard and get good grades like you can in undergrad because of the curve. The class I thought I did the best in this semester ended up being a P, and the other two that I didn't think I did as well in ended up being above a P. So I would qualify your statement to say that it seems reasonable to expect BigLaw if you get more than half H and HH grades. It's not reasonable if you have all Ps, or mostly Ps, and it's hard to tell before you get your grade back which it will be.

I've heard if you have more than one P your first year, there are certain elite firms that won't even look at you at all. But I know someone with one P, the rest H grades that was still hired by a Top-5 firm so everything is anecdotal.

[Kronk]

When can we find placement numbers from last year's class?

How's summer job hunting going?

I have had a few interviews. Haven't got anything yet, though. We have a few places coming on campus in February, and then a PI / Public Service day at UC Hastings on February 12th.

[r6_philly]

When can we find placement numbers from last year's class?

How's summer job hunting going?

I have had a few interviews. Haven't got anything yet, though. We have a few places coming on campus in February, and then a PI / Public Service day at UC Hastings on February 12th.

Thanks. Do you know how many actually get firm offers? Are they mostly in SF? Since I am gunning for IP/Tech, how is hiring at SV firms right now?

On your previous comment about grades: so it's not good to have most or all Ps. That means being a median student at Boalt is going to hurt more than a peer school? I guess it helps the lower half because no one will be identified as being really behind, but the median and slightly above median suffers if less than half the class gets biglaw. In this case (say all Ps), would WE and prior experience help? Or you won't even get interviews?

Thanks again, and good luck with your SA search.

[Kronk]

When can we find placement numbers from last year's class?

How's summer job hunting going?

I have had a few interviews. Haven't got anything yet, though. We have a few places coming on campus in February, and then a PI / Public Service day at UC Hastings on February 12th.

Thanks. Do you know how many actually get firm offers? Are they mostly in SF? Since I am gunning for IP/Tech, how is hiring at SV firms right now?

On your previous comment about grades: so it's not good to have most or all Ps. That means being a median student at Boalt is going to hurt more than a peer school? I guess it helps the lower half because no one will be identified as being really behind, but the median and slightly above median suffers if less than half the class gets biglaw. In this case (say all Ps), would WE and prior experience help? Or you won't even get interviews?

Thanks again, and good luck with your SA search.

I don't know the numbers on firm offers. I think it is pretty low. The BigLaw interviews going around Boalt for 1Ls right now have been San Francisco, though I know some people that have reached out to other firms and have had some luck in D.C. and NYC, so it isn't exclusive.

Yeah--Ps are definitely a double-edged sword. I do think it would be better to be median at a peer school like Michigan or Virginia than at Boalt. The nice part about it is if you really hate a class, getting a P is pretty easy. The 2Ls are probably more qualified than I am to answer the question, though. It is frustrating for everyone here to put in a ton of work in a class and come away with a P, even though it is bound to happen to quite a few borderline people each class.

I think life experiences can help with a transcript that has mostly or all Ps. One of my good upperclassmen friends got all Ps the first semester, only one H the second semester, and ended up getting tons of job offers (MoFo and a few others, including a Vault top 20 firm that the person is going to work at after graduating) as well as a COA clerkship. But that person has diversity things and leadership positions at Boalt, so I don't know how much that stuff pulls. 2Ls are probably more qualified to answer on this one, too.

[Rotor]

A 2L's two cents: if a person were the median in each class he/she took, the system would definitely hurt. However, that scenario is extremely unlikely. More often that "medianish" student will be slightly below in some classes and slightly above in others-- enough to pull in an H here and there.

As mentioned above, the Ps insulate the very bottom of the class at the expense of the middle. That sounds negative when phrased that way, but overall it is a positive: it also enables you to not worry about that C on the transcript that could be damaging to job prospects. Some folks I know plan a sacraficial P in one class so they can focus on doing better in their other classes. (I don't operate that way so can't tell you how effective that strategy is). The lack of downside fear is a key ingredient of Boalt's über collegiality.

As for 1L job prospects, a handful of my classmates worked in firms. Most were IP, but not all. Considering the conventional wisdom that 1L firm jobs are "impossible" I think the handful I know (and I'm sure some others I don't) is a pretty good success rate. A couple of 1Ls I know are interviewing with MoFo for their IP fellowship.

As for the 2L job prospects, I think most who wanted a firm job got one. I have only one friend who completely struck out. (CDO hasn't released any data that I know of so I can only give my perspective/anecdotal info.) That one person aside, everyone else I am close enough to to discuss such things is really happy with where they've landed. We even have a bunch going to DC (which according to TLS wisdom was impossible this year).

As for how the firms look at the grades, they all have an idea how many Hs they would like to see. A couple of elite firms said they wanted to see an HH or two (but that proved a soft requirement if you had WE). The more Hs the better obviously but a P or two or three 1L isn't going to make or break you as long as you're smart in your bidding. (CDO does have historical data and info from firms letting you know roughly where your target should be. But don't forget to add a few reaches too. If you're a good fit it could work out. I'm at a v20 in DC with medianish 1L grades but some pretty unique work experience).

Finally for the 1Ls: the changes CDO has made to OCIP are AWESOME!! We were late in the cycle last year and I think that hurt a bit. I am not as convinced on this 13-week term proposal because of other effects-- but from a job hunt perspective it would be the right thing to do.

Reminder: this is my perspective only. It may be rosier than actuality. Just ask as many 2Ls as you can and you'll get a more complete picture (at least until CDO gives us some data).

[tipler4213]

tag

[mrmangs]

Kronk and Rotor, thank you for taking the time to share.

[r6_philly]

Kronk and Rotor, thank you for taking the time to share.

Thank you guys again.

@Rotor:

Out of the handful of guys getting 1L SA in IP, why are they successful? WE? Background? This is exactly what I am going for, so the more informed I am, the better.

Thank you again!

[r6_philly]

Second point - I agree. Grades are far from the be-all and end-all. This is especially true for (1) hard science/engineering IP people and/or (2) WE people. While some options are eliminated (i.e. clerking), getting a firm job is not.

So since I am IP (CS) and have long WE, I should not fear the Ps? Is age an issue (I will be 35).

[Rotor]

So since I am IP (CS) and have long WE, I should not fear the Ps? Is age an issue (I will be 35).

You have less to fear of Ps. But that isn't the same as no fear.

As for your age, let's put it this way, it's less of an issue for you than it was for me.