Boalt 1Ls taking questions

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boalt2l
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby boalt2l » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:20 pm

I mean I don't talk to 1Ls about my job search because i don't want to scare them, especially that they are gonna be about 20k more in the hole than us. The 1Ls are already nervous enough about school as it is, but maybe we should just be honest so they don't have these deluded thoughts, and more importantly so people don't come to Boalt thinking that the school's name on its own will give you a job.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby IzziesGal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:18 pm

aheisman wrote:
mfeller2 wrote:
boalt2l wrote:I guess over half our class is socially awkward then.... it's really cute that you think employers actually care about sociability. The only things that matter are W/E and transcripts.


Says the socially awkward guy with good grades and work experience that won't get an offer because fellow attorneys don't feel comfortable around him and he is awkward during interviews.
Personality does matter, law firms won't hire someone if they think the person won't gel socially with others. They can easily find someone with just as good grades and work experience, if you haven't heard there is an abundance of them currently without jobs.


It depends on the market, but don't expect to get any success out of SF, DC, or Chicago with top third grades. (I personally found it much easier landing callbacks than offers, so getting callbacks is 30% of the battle. I say 30% because firms are calling back a TON of people per spot.)


I have to say that this is a lot of one-size-fits all negativity. Worldtraveler hit the nail on the head when she said laziness in applications has killed some 2Ls....and this is entirely true. If you are not a lock for OCI (meaning not the tippy top of the class + law review), then you should be mass mailing WAY before OCI even comes. Do NOT wait until after you strike out at OCI, because then it is too late. I am by no means top of the class - I am a totally average student + law review. I wouldn't even guess my rank, but I can tell you there are more Ps than anything else. And I sent out apps to Vault firms over the summer before OCI and had success that way.

Bottom line - 1Ls - please do not be panicked. If you are proactive and have interesting resumes and are geographically flexible and are willing to make searching for a job your "job" before OCI, you will be fine. I sent out ~ 200 resumes and cover letters prior to OCI. So when I say be proactive, I mean it.

Edit: I came to law school after working for a firm and knew I wanted to end up at one after graduation, so I was a little more aggressive/relentless in my job search than others.
Last edited by IzziesGal on Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby IzziesGal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:22 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
aheisman wrote:
mfeller2 wrote:
boalt2l wrote:I guess over half our class is socially awkward then.... it's really cute that you think employers actually care about sociability. The only things that matter are W/E and transcripts.


Says the socially awkward guy with good grades and work experience that won't get an offer because fellow attorneys don't feel comfortable around him and he is awkward during interviews.
Personality does matter, law firms won't hire someone if they think the person won't gel socially with others. They can easily find someone with just as good grades and work experience, if you haven't heard there is an abundance of them currently without jobs.


It depends on the market, but don't expect to get any success out of SF, DC, or Chicago with top third grades. (I personally found it much easier landing callbacks than offers, so getting callbacks is 30% of the battle. I say 30% because firms are calling back a TON of people per spot.)


That's a little over the top. There are people with median or barely above grades who made it into those markets.

The one thing I would agree with everyone on is that people straight out of undergrad seem to struggle more. I've seen a few non-traditional students with not so good grades but awesome resumes get great offers. The same is not true for the ones going straight through.

It's rather odd that 1Ls are arguing about OCI. 2Ls as a group are also far more reluctant to talk about jobs with 1Ls if they didn't do well. It's rather humiliating, and given that people immediately start thinking you're a socially retarded weirdo if you didn't get anything, I can understand why. Yes, some of them are actually socially retarded weirdos, but some are not.


Worldtraveler is spewing out lots of wisdom today. :wink:

I should have added this as a major qualifier to my previous post -those who went straight through needed the tippy top grades more so than others.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:48 pm

IzziesGal I didn't know you made law review. Congrats!

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:55 pm

I mean, I didn't say that I knew the statistics. I just said that most of the 2Ls I knew seemed to have gotten SA positions. But it might be (and apparently is) unrepresentative. But I am involved in about four student groups right now, and in one of them, all six of the upperclassmen had 1L summer SA jobs, in another the only people I have talked to either worked at a firm their 1L summer, split between a firm and a PI organization, or worked at the ACLU (even harder, probably).

aheisman
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby aheisman » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:28 pm

boalt2l wrote:I mean I don't talk to 1Ls about my job search because i don't want to scare them, especially that they are gonna be about 20k more in the hole than us. The 1Ls are already nervous enough about school as it is, but maybe we should just be honest so they don't have these deluded thoughts, and more importantly so people don't come to Boalt thinking that the school's name on its own will give you a job.


Also, I think people generally don't talk about the job search openly, unless they are among friends. And if people do talk about it openly, they are probably one of the ones who got a job.

IzziesGal wrote: I have to say that this is a lot of one-size-fits all negativity. Worldtraveler hit the nail on the head when she said laziness in applications has killed some 2Ls....and this is entirely true. If you are not a lock for OCI (meaning not the tippy top of the class + law review), then you should be mass mailing WAY before OCI even comes. Do NOT wait until after you strike out at OCI, because then it is too late. I am by no means top of the class - I am a totally average student + law review. I wouldn't even guess my rank, but I can tell you there are more Ps than anything else. And I sent out apps to Vault firms over the summer before OCI and had success that way.

Bottom line - 1Ls - please do not be panicked. If you are proactive and have interesting resumes and are geographically flexible and are willing to make searching for a job your "job" before OCI, you will be fine. I sent out ~ 200 resumes and cover letters prior to OCI. So when I say be proactive, I mean it.

Edit: I came to law school after working for a firm and knew I wanted to end up at one after graduation, so I was a little more aggressive/relentless in my job search than others.


You must have some really great WE, because I am top 1/3 at MVPB and mass mailed some biglaw firms before on-campus interviews, to no avail. (I have no good WE.) I ended up landing a job through OCI, but had absolutely no luck mass mailing biglaw firms.

Unless you have at least some extreme WE OR top 10% grades, I wouldn't expect much luck from mass mailing, at least with biglaw firms, although smaller firms may bite.

aheisman
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby aheisman » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:40 pm

boalt2l wrote:Once you pass the grades bar your relevant work experience comes into play. The hiring partner at firms who makes the call is someone who usually never even meets you. After grades it essentially becomes a resume contest, which is why people straight out of undergrad are pretty screwed.


I agree with this. Tbh, I think WE plays a larger role than written-on law review. I was asked by certain interviewers during screening about my "work experience," which was not particularly impressive since I only had part-time work experience.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby IzziesGal » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:36 pm

aheisman wrote:
boalt2l wrote:I mean I don't talk to 1Ls about my job search because i don't want to scare them, especially that they are gonna be about 20k more in the hole than us. The 1Ls are already nervous enough about school as it is, but maybe we should just be honest so they don't have these deluded thoughts, and more importantly so people don't come to Boalt thinking that the school's name on its own will give you a job.


Also, I think people generally don't talk about the job search openly, unless they are among friends. And if people do talk about it openly, they are probably one of the ones who got a job.

IzziesGal wrote: I have to say that this is a lot of one-size-fits all negativity. Worldtraveler hit the nail on the head when she said laziness in applications has killed some 2Ls....and this is entirely true. If you are not a lock for OCI (meaning not the tippy top of the class + law review), then you should be mass mailing WAY before OCI even comes. Do NOT wait until after you strike out at OCI, because then it is too late. I am by no means top of the class - I am a totally average student + law review. I wouldn't even guess my rank, but I can tell you there are more Ps than anything else. And I sent out apps to Vault firms over the summer before OCI and had success that way.

Bottom line - 1Ls - please do not be panicked. If you are proactive and have interesting resumes and are geographically flexible and are willing to make searching for a job your "job" before OCI, you will be fine. I sent out ~ 200 resumes and cover letters prior to OCI. So when I say be proactive, I mean it.

Edit: I came to law school after working for a firm and knew I wanted to end up at one after graduation, so I was a little more aggressive/relentless in my job search than others.


You must have some really great WE, because I am top 1/3 at MVPB and mass mailed some biglaw firms before on-campus interviews, to no avail. (I have no good WE.) I ended up landing a job through OCI, but had absolutely no luck mass mailing biglaw firms.

Unless you have at least some extreme WE OR top 10% grades, I wouldn't expect much luck from mass mailing, at least with biglaw firms, although smaller firms may bite.


I don't think my work experience is that spectacular, although I did have big firm work on my resume from before law school. I think what really helped me was targeting firms that weren't coming to OCI - firms in NY, Boston, Philly, and DC that were not the major players (i.e. not the top firms on the Vault list). A lot of these firms would love to have Berkeley students, but don't have the recruiting budgets to send attorneys to California for OCI. The other caveat I should put out there is that I was going to be in the area visiting family, so I made sure to tell firms in the first couple sentences of my cover letters that I would be in town and would love to come in for an interview. I was pretty blunt about it, but it seemed to work - I tried to make it as effortless as possible for them to see me. Basically, I am flying myself out, staying with family, and will be in town - all you need to do is book a conference room and send someone down for a couple hours to see me. I think this was really helpful in my strategy as well.

Edit: Congrats on the job through OCI!

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:36 pm

Regardless of what anything anyone on here tells you, you might always be the exception that proves the rule.

I know peeps who got firms in SF, NY, DC without top third grades and I know individuals who got big firm jobs (Jones Day, etc.) without top grades or good work experience through mass mailing.

Imagine that!

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ahduth
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby ahduth » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:15 pm

Hey there... I know I'm already super late for Boalt, which leads me to the following question...

How important is the four page PS, versus a "standard" 2 pager. I know Dean Tom has said he would rather see more rather than less, but I'm just wondering what my trade off in terms of time here is. I'd really hate to screw up my chances at Berkeley by spending more time to put together a more elaborative statement, only to get dropped due to the timing.

That being said, I may be screwed for timing anyhow. Basically, how many of you submitted 4 pagers versus 2 pagers?

bdubs
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby bdubs » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:27 pm

ahduth wrote:Hey there... I know I'm already super late for Boalt, which leads me to the following question...

How important is the four page PS, versus a "standard" 2 pager. I know Dean Tom has said he would rather see more rather than less, but I'm just wondering what my trade off in terms of time here is. I'd really hate to screw up my chances at Berkeley by spending more time to put together a more elaborative statement, only to get dropped due to the timing.

That being said, I may be screwed for timing anyhow. Basically, how many of you submitted 4 pagers versus 2 pagers?


I'm in the same boat as you, working on a supplemental essay for Boalt (rather than expanding my PS). If you look at LSN there are still a decent number of accepts from early/mid November, I don't think we are totally screwed. I think it is probably worth the extra time to make your app stand out from the 7999 other applicants at Berkeley.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:29 pm

ahduth wrote:Hey there... I know I'm already super late for Boalt, which leads me to the following question...

How important is the four page PS, versus a "standard" 2 pager. I know Dean Tom has said he would rather see more rather than less, but I'm just wondering what my trade off in terms of time here is. I'd really hate to screw up my chances at Berkeley by spending more time to put together a more elaborative statement, only to get dropped due to the timing.

That being said, I may be screwed for timing anyhow. Basically, how many of you submitted 4 pagers versus 2 pagers?


I think anything Dean Tom says is a good idea is probably a good idea. That said, I submitted my 2-pager under the theory that I would only be drawing it out and the writing wouldn't be as concise or poignant if I extended it. I figured submitted a very strong 2-pager was better than submitting a less catchy 4-pager. If you have something strong to add, I would extend it. If you feel you've said most of what you wanted to, I wouldn't.

Keep in mind that they also get to see your resume, so I wouldn't add another paragraph if it's just going to go into more detail about something that is already on your resume.

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gymboree
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby gymboree » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:32 am

I did 4 pages. Plenty of people here did 2 pages. Ultimately, it's quality over quantity.

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AreJay711
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:49 am

Is early November really considered late for Berkeley's admissions? I applied late October thinking I was a little early. Did a 3 1/2 page PS though.

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Rotor
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Rotor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:30 am

aheisman wrote:
boalt2l wrote:Once you pass the grades bar your relevant work experience comes into play. The hiring partner at firms who makes the call is someone who usually never even meets you. After grades it essentially becomes a resume contest, which is why people straight out of undergrad are pretty screwed.


I agree with this. Tbh, I think WE plays a larger role than written-on law review. I was asked by certain interviewers during screening about my "work experience," which was not particularly impressive since I only had part-time work experience.

+1 to aheisman.

I also concur with boalt2l in general terms, but I see the grades/WE as a sliding scale rather than a minimum threshold before your resume becomes relevant.

That said, I would like to encourage 1Ls to keep working hard but for goodness sake relax a bit. (Did anyone take time to enjoy that awesome sunset beyond the GGB tonight?) Anxiety and tension are not conducive to top performance and they're practically dripping off the walls these days.

Just as our OCIP was different than 2011's, yours will likely be different than ours. But before worrying about that, you'll be getting a 1L job. Will it be a big firm job? Not likely. Will it be paid? Also not likely-- unless you count Edley Bucks (and you're not working for a judge and you did your pro bono hours . . . ) .

If you go in with those expectations and develop a plan for those expectations, your stress will be a bit lower, you will be happier and (hopefully) will do better [however you define "better"].

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Dignan
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Dignan » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:13 am

ahduth wrote:Hey there... I know I'm already super late for Boalt, which leads me to the following question...

How important is the four page PS, versus a "standard" 2 pager. I know Dean Tom has said he would rather see more rather than less, but I'm just wondering what my trade off in terms of time here is. I'd really hate to screw up my chances at Berkeley by spending more time to put together a more elaborative statement, only to get dropped due to the timing.

That being said, I may be screwed for timing anyhow. Basically, how many of you submitted 4 pagers versus 2 pagers?

I submitted 2.5 pages, but I included a sincere Boalt-specific paragraph towards the end of my statement.

By the way, I submitted my application in mid-November and was accepted just two weeks later. I know that Dean Tom prefers early applications, but I don't think you're "late" quite yet.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby bilbobaggins » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:37 pm

1L class is sort of a fail this year. I thought we were bad, but come on.

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gymboree
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby gymboree » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:59 pm

Bilbo - how so?

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:58 am

gymboree wrote:Bilbo - how so?


Bilbo is pretty much the worst Berkeley poaster on these boards. I figure in order to make a poast worthwhile, it needs to be either useful or funny, and Bilbo checks in at about 1 out of 20 or so.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:30 pm

Kronk wrote:
gymboree wrote:Bilbo - how so?


Bilbo is pretty much the worst Berkeley poaster on these boards. I figure in order to make a poast worthwhile, it needs to be either useful or funny, and Bilbo checks in at about 1 out of 20 or so.


Ahh, so sad.

I think I know you.

Gymboree, see sentence 2.

Edit PS: Besides the snark, I could tell you stories. But I don't know you, so I won't. Unless I do, and then I have.

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clintonius
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby clintonius » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:25 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
Kronk wrote:
gymboree wrote:Bilbo - how so?
Bilbo is pretty much the worst Berkeley poaster on these boards. I figure in order to make a poast worthwhile, it needs to be either useful or funny, and Bilbo checks in at about 1 out of 20 or so.
Ahh, so sad.

I think I know you.

Gymboree, see sentence 2.

Edit PS: Besides the snark, I could tell you stories. But I don't know you, so I won't. Unless I do, and then I have.
"Hey guys, wanna know a secret? Yeah? I bet you do."

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:20 am

Yeah, I hope folks can chill out a bit. It's unfortunate when I see people in the library or in class who are clearly very overwhelmed/stressed. The work is tough for sure, but it IS just law school. We're all lucky to be here to begin with, and all one can do is try their best, which sounds entirely fair to me.

Hell, I think the mania is fun. It's a pretty thrilling challenge....and regardless of the results, it will be over in 3 weeks!

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby Kronk » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:44 am

Only people with zero personality spell poast post. This is just an FYI.

r6_philly
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby r6_philly » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:53 pm

What happened in here? Do I have to come and cuss people out? :mrgreen:

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gymboree
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Re: Boalt 1Ls taking questions

Postby gymboree » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:28 am

deleted




.
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