G.W. 1L Ready to take questions Forum

[dudders]

How late do you think is too late to begin the apt search for a place in DC?

It depends on what you're looking for. There's a lot of movement in shared housing; I suspect you could find a room in a group house/shared apartment in August without too much problem, so long as you were available to interview/attend open houses. (There might be even more than usual given that it's an election year, but that might not get you through the school year.) I've never known someone to not be able to find somewhere to live, but if you want to not be subletting/have a good lease term, I suggest looking at least 4-6 weeks in advance.

If you're a wait list or transfer, or just don't think about housing til August 10th, I don't think you'll be homeless, but you probably won't be finding your home for the next three years, if that makes sense.

When I was moving to DC, we looked intensively for a 3 bedroom unoccupied townhouse from mid-may on and got our lease signed around 4th of July for an Aug 1 move-in. And we were pretty nervous at that point. But we also had semi-strict price criteria ($3k max), so that limited options. The more criteria you have and the less you're willing to spend, the harder it is. If you have pets, a car, strictly preferred neighborhoods, etc., get on it early. If you have $1500-$2000 to spend on a downtown studio or 1 bedroom, or want to move into shared housing that's already occupied, I suspect your search might be a little easier but I'm not sure.

This applies to DC only; I didn't consider Virginia.


Bottom line: start looking by memorial day if you can. If not, you can still get lucky, but you might have to adjust some of your criteria.

[TooSchool4Cool]

Hello!!!!

Okay, question to all GW-ers:

I have a very nice scholarship to Vanderbilt, but honestly, the thought of moving to Nashville is uber depressing, though Vanderbilt itself is great, administration helpful, etc. I know that it may seem crazy to turn Vanderbilt down, but I REALLY want to practice in DC, yet I have no ties. My ideal career plans would be to work for the Federal Governemnt in some sort of regulatory capicity or I would be open to Think Tanks and Policy orgs, as long as I can figure out a way to pay off the debt. I would be open to firm work for awhile, but def not my passion/goal. My scholarship at GW is nothing compared to the one at Vandy. I have talked to a few GW students and would love to take advantage of Outside Placement and other networking opportunities throughout my 3 years rather than just pray that I can land something in DC from Vandy and focus my 2 summers there.

Nashville is okay to visit, but I do NOT want to live there (ever again!). Am I crazy to turn down Vandy for GW?

[parebare23]

How late do you think is too late to begin the apt search for a place in DC?

It depends on what you're looking for. There's a lot of movement in shared housing; I suspect you could find a room in a group house/shared apartment in August without too much problem, so long as you were available to interview/attend open houses. (There might be even more than usual given that it's an election year, but that might not get you through the school year.) I've never known someone to not be able to find somewhere to live, but if you want to not be subletting/have a good lease term, I suggest looking at least 4-6 weeks in advance.

If you're a wait list or transfer, or just don't think about housing til August 10th, I don't think you'll be homeless, but you probably won't be finding your home for the next three years, if that makes sense.

When I was moving to DC, we looked intensively for a 3 bedroom unoccupied townhouse from mid-may on and got our lease signed around 4th of July for an Aug 1 move-in. And we were pretty nervous at that point. But we also had semi-strict price criteria ($3k max), so that limited options. The more criteria you have and the less you're willing to spend, the harder it is. If you have pets, a car, strictly preferred neighborhoods, etc., get on it early. If you have $1500-$2000 to spend on a downtown studio or 1 bedroom, or want to move into shared housing that's already occupied, I suspect your search might be a little easier but I'm not sure.

This applies to DC only; I didn't consider Virginia.


Bottom line: start looking by memorial day if you can. If not, you can still get lucky, but you might have to adjust some of your criteria.

Thank you!!

[mi-chan17]

Hello!!!!

Okay, question to all GW-ers:

I have a very nice scholarship to Vanderbilt, but honestly, the thought of moving to Nashville is uber depressing, though Vanderbilt itself is great, administration helpful, etc. I know that it may seem crazy to turn Vanderbilt down, but I REALLY want to practice in DC, yet I have no ties. My ideal career plans would be to work for the Federal Governemnt in some sort of regulatory capicity or I would be open to Think Tanks and Policy orgs, as long as I can figure out a way to pay off the debt. I would be open to firm work for awhile, but def not my passion/goal. My scholarship at GW is nothing compared to the one at Vandy. I have talked to a few GW students and would love to take advantage of Outside Placement and other networking opportunities throughout my 3 years rather than just pray that I can land something in DC from Vandy and focus my 2 summers there.

Nashville is okay to visit, but I do NOT want to live there (ever again!). Am I crazy to turn down Vandy for GW?

I don't think you're crazy to turn down Vandy for GW, given the reasons you've stated. I think the money difference sucks though, I'm not going to lie. But GW has always kind of confused me when it came to handing out money. If you hate Nashville, you probably shouldn't go to a regional law school located in Nashville. I realize Vandy's name has some cache outside of Tennessee, but it's not as though you're turning down Duke or something. If you're absolutely miserable, I don't think you'll perform as well. And since performance is truly what determines your job opportunities, you don't want to mess with that.

As a 2L that's also working towards federal government, I think GW's opportunities to intern during the year are invaluable. Federal government is a tough nut to crack, because of all the hiring freezes, and its gotten to the point where if you don't start making yourself look public sector-y right off the bad, you could be screwed out of it no matter the passion or grades you actually have. GW lets you fill your resume with your proof that you're public sector oriented.

That said, it's a tough nut to crack. Your chances of getting entry level attorney jobs on the federal level, though not absolutely zero, are certainly quite low (as are mine). But that would be true no matter what school you attended, and I think GW certain does help increase what will still be an admittedly small chance.

Don't come to just because you think you need "ties". DC is one of the few markets where your "ties" can be minimal and can be totally practice area based "I want to do regulatory work, and DC was the place to come".

TL;DR: you're not crazy. Some of GW's opportunities for fed-oriented students are invaluable. Just remember that getting fed from any school is extremely difficult.

[parebare23]

What's the time frame for receiving our section assignments?

[Wily]

Hey - just saw this thread. Here's some basic questions:

Do current GW students know what percent of GW students got 2L SA's in Biglaw through OCI? And about what percent of students have Biglaw jobs lined up after graduation?

Do a lot of students transfer away from GW to T14 schools? What percent would you have to be in to do that?

[dudders]

What's the time frame for receiving our section assignments?

At orientation, unless you're part-time or self-elect into section 15. (Unless they're changing the timeline along with changing sections to "Inns of Court".)

[mi-chan17]

Hey - just saw this thread. Here's some basic questions:

Do current GW students know what percent of GW students got 2L SA's in Biglaw through OCI? And about what percent of students have Biglaw jobs lined up after graduation?

Do a lot of students transfer away from GW to T14 schools? What percent would you have to be in to do that?

In terms of your first question, probably only the top 20% plus people who were special in some way (IPSecure, URM) actually got 2L SAs through OCI. That said, we have people who get SAs outside OCI. Unfortunately, I don't have a great way of gauging those numbers. So I'll guess that maybe a third is going into BigLaw SAs, but because our class is huge and because it strikes me as rude going up to strangers and asking if they're BigLaw this summer, I don't know for sure.

I don't know the percentage of 3Ls with BigLaw lined up. I'm going to guess probably around 30%, but again this is based off of incomplete data.

I don't think "a lot" of students transfer up, because there's kind of a law of diminishing returns when you're talking about transfering up from GW. If you have the grades to transfer to Chicago, you have the grades to get a job out of GW and you've already got a network here - so why transfer? A few people transfer up each year. The ranking necessary to do so depends on which T14 you're talking about. If you're talking about UVA it's easier than if you're talking about Harvard.

[Wily]

Hey - just saw this thread. Here's some basic questions:

Do current GW students know what percent of GW students got 2L SA's in Biglaw through OCI? And about what percent of students have Biglaw jobs lined up after graduation?

Do a lot of students transfer away from GW to T14 schools? What percent would you have to be in to do that?

In terms of your first question, probably only the top 20% plus people who were special in some way (IPSecure, URM) actually got 2L SAs through OCI. That said, we have people who get SAs outside OCI. Unfortunately, I don't have a great way of gauging those numbers. So I'll guess that maybe a third is going into BigLaw SAs, but because our class is huge and because it strikes me as rude going up to strangers and asking if they're BigLaw this summer, I don't know for sure.

I don't know the percentage of 3Ls with BigLaw lined up. I'm going to guess probably around 30%, but again this is based off of incomplete data.

I don't think "a lot" of students transfer up, because there's kind of a law of diminishing returns when you're talking about transfering up from GW. If you have the grades to transfer to Chicago, you have the grades to get a job out of GW and you've already got a network here - so why transfer? A few people transfer up each year. The ranking necessary to do so depends on which T14 you're talking about. If you're talking about UVA it's easier than if you're talking about Harvard.

Thanks mi-chan. Another random question: is the Aston worth the money, or should I look elsewhere for housing as an incoming 1L? Thanks.

Also, could you tell me what the classes are for fall 1L? Or link me somewhere that shows the first-year curriculum? I've been trying to find this with no luck.

[mi-chan17]

Thanks mi-chan. Another random question: is the Aston worth the money, or should I look elsewhere for housing as an incoming 1L? Thanks.

Also, could you tell me what the classes are for fall 1L? Or link me somewhere that shows the first-year curriculum? I've been trying to find this with no luck.

I enjoyed living in the Aston, and there are benefits to being there: close to school, meet other law students outside your section, etc. I think only you can decide if it's worth the money. If you want to live near school, then I think it is, because you'll be paying a ton to live anywhere in Foggy Bottom.

1L Fall (FT): LRW, CivPro I, Contracts I, CrimLaw, Torts
1L Spring (FT): LRW, CivPro II, Contracts II, Property, ConLaw I

There's also a new thing they're creating for the incoming class called the Inns of Court. That will have set meeting times too, but I'm not entirely sure how it interacts with your actual classes.

[sky7]

Thanks mi-chan. Another random question: is the Aston worth the money, or should I look elsewhere for housing as an incoming 1L? Thanks.

Also, could you tell me what the classes are for fall 1L? Or link me somewhere that shows the first-year curriculum? I've been trying to find this with no luck.

I enjoyed living in the Aston, and there are benefits to being there: close to school, meet other law students outside your section, etc. I think only you can decide if it's worth the money. If you want to live near school, then I think it is, because you'll be paying a ton to live anywhere in Foggy Bottom.

1L Fall (FT): LRW, CivPro I, Contracts I, CrimLaw, Torts
1L Spring (FT): LRW, CivPro II, Contracts II, Property, ConLaw I

There's also a new thing they're creating for the incoming class called the Inns of Court. That will have set meeting times too, but I'm not entirely sure how it interacts with your actual classes.

WTF is Inns of Court?

[mi-chan17]

Inns of Court are this new thing being set up by the school for the incoming 1Ls that is based on some kind of system they use at Vandy's medical school. I guess Prof. Peterson's studies on how depressed law students (not just at GW, but generally) are led him to the conclusion that make the support structure different would help fix some of that.

So the basic set-up is, I think, that all 1Ls will be divided into "Inns of Court" which will roughly correspond to what we used to call "sections". Each Inn will have a dedicated "advisory team" consisting of faculty, CDO counselors, student affairs staff, and deans fellows. Every other week they will have "social" type meetings and on the other weeks they'll have substantive lessons on things like how to take exams and stuff.

The theory, so far as I can tell, is that we're all depressed because we don't feel like we control our own destinies and because law schools make it needlessly difficult for us to find the information we actually want and need (how to study, how to write an exam, how to find jobs). So the Inns will collect all those people and put them in a single place for 1L access.

There was an article about it: http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/04/23/law ... dent-life/

[Wily]

Thanks mi-chan. Another random question: is the Aston worth the money, or should I look elsewhere for housing as an incoming 1L? Thanks.

Also, could you tell me what the classes are for fall 1L? Or link me somewhere that shows the first-year curriculum? I've been trying to find this with no luck.

I enjoyed living in the Aston, and there are benefits to being there: close to school, meet other law students outside your section, etc. I think only you can decide if it's worth the money. If you want to live near school, then I think it is, because you'll be paying a ton to live anywhere in Foggy Bottom.

1L Fall (FT): LRW, CivPro I, Contracts I, CrimLaw, Torts
1L Spring (FT): LRW, CivPro II, Contracts II, Property, ConLaw I

There's also a new thing they're creating for the incoming class called the Inns of Court. That will have set meeting times too, but I'm not entirely sure how it interacts with your actual classes.

Thanks so much mi-chan. That's really helpful.

For the legal writing courses (LRW, I assume), how many/what kinds of assignments are there? Is it an onerous amount? I tend to get perfectionist and spend way too much time on writing assignments, so I'm always concerned when there's lot of writing in a semester. Thanks.

[Always Credited]

Inns of Court are this new thing being set up by the school for the incoming 1Ls that is based on some kind of system they use at Vandy's medical school. I guess Prof. Peterson's studies on how depressed law students (not just at GW, but generally) are led him to the conclusion that make the support structure different would help fix some of that.

So the basic set-up is, I think, that all 1Ls will be divided into "Inns of Court" which will roughly correspond to what we used to call "sections". Each Inn will have a dedicated "advisory team" consisting of faculty, CDO counselors, student affairs staff, and deans fellows. Every other week they will have "social" type meetings and on the other weeks they'll have substantive lessons on things like how to take exams and stuff.

The theory, so far as I can tell, is that we're all depressed because we don't feel like we control our own destinies and because law schools make it needlessly difficult for us to find the information we actually want and need (how to study, how to write an exam, how to find jobs). So the Inns will collect all those people and put them in a single place for 1L access.

There was an article about it: http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/04/23/law ... dent-life/

so they're trying to make our school into Hogwarts

[mi-chan17]

so they're trying to make our school into Hogwarts

But way more expensive. *nods*

Thanks so much mi-chan. That's really helpful.

For the legal writing courses (LRW, I assume), how many/what kinds of assignments are there? Is it an onerous amount? I tend to get perfectionist and spend way too much time on writing assignments, so I'm always concerned when there's lot of writing in a semester. Thanks.

It's no problem at all - I have an exam tonight (and I don't believe in studying immediately before exams), so I'm killing time.

Yeah, LRW is legal research and writing (or, it's second semester name, "Introduction to Advocacy"). I don't know that the number of assignments is particularly daunting. You usually only have a couple of graded things per semester for LRW - it's a 2 credit class. The thing that makes LRW difficult is (a) the learning curve and (b) how random it feels because you're broken into small sections, each of which is taught by a different adjunct who may expect something particular. It's not as uniform as your substantive classes.

That said, the Inns of Court reform is theoretically altering the structure of the LRW department (by changing the roles of both the deans fellows and the adjuncts), so it might be different than in past years.

[Wily]

How is the competitive "atmosphere" at GW? Is it cutthroat, or do students generally help each other out?

Are the law school facilities new / relatively nice? Is there a cafeteria or dining hall there?

Does GW's law review have a certain percent who automatically get on because of grades, or is it all write-on?

These questions are basic, but since I was just admitted last Thursday off the WL I didn't have the chance to attend any admitted student events.

Thanks mi-chan. Good luck with your finals too.

[mi-chan17]

Thanks for the luck! I will, sadly, undoubtedly need it.

How is the competitive "atmosphere" at GW? Is it cutthroat, or do students generally help each other out?

In my experience, everyone has been great. Not cutthroat at all. If I ask a classmate for notes, they always share them with me, and vice versa. I've given copies of my outlines for a class to other people in the class. And while that may be a little extreme, I've never noticed anyone trying to sabotage anyone else.

Are the law school facilities new / relatively nice? Is there a cafeteria or dining hall there?

The law school facilities are okay. The actually structures are, in my opinion, quite nice. But there is a serious problem in terms of size, since our student body is so big. When 1L classes are going in or getting out from their substantive classes, the hallways can kind of turn into a bit of a cattle call.

The law school has this place called the Uptowner that sells sandwiches and stuff that's overpriced, in my opinion. Beyond that, the school has a place called the hard lounge where there's tables and chairs and stuff for eating lunch, but you have to bring it in yourself.

Does GW's law review have a certain percent who automatically get on because of grades, or is it all write-on?

None of the journals at GW do straight grade-on. They all reserve the right to take write-ons, but I'm unaware of them actually using it. Law Review itself typically takes the top 10-ish % of "high scorers" on the journal competition; scores are computed by weighting grades 70% and the writing portion 30%. Most of the other journals do something similar (exception: AIPLA - the IP journal).

[dudders]

Thanks for the luck! I will, sadly, undoubtedly need it.

How is the competitive "atmosphere" at GW? Is it cutthroat, or do students generally help each other out?

In my experience, everyone has been great. Not cutthroat at all. If I ask a classmate for notes, they always share them with me, and vice versa. I've given copies of my outlines for a class to other people in the class. And while that may be a little extreme, I've never noticed anyone trying to sabotage anyone else.

Are the law school facilities new / relatively nice? Is there a cafeteria or dining hall there?

The law school facilities are okay. The actually structures are, in my opinion, quite nice. But there is a serious problem in terms of size, since our student body is so big. When 1L classes are going in or getting out from their substantive classes, the hallways can kind of turn into a bit of a cattle call.

The law school has this place called the Uptowner that sells sandwiches and stuff that's overpriced, in my opinion. Beyond that, the school has a place called the hard lounge where there's tables and chairs and stuff for eating lunch, but you have to bring it in yourself.

Does GW's law review have a certain percent who automatically get on because of grades, or is it all write-on?

None of the journals at GW do straight grade-on. They all reserve the right to take write-ons, but I'm unaware of them actually using it. Law Review itself typically takes the top 10-ish % of "high scorers" on the journal competition; scores are computed by weighting grades 70% and the writing portion 30%. Most of the other journals do something similar (exception: AIPLA - the IP journal).

I basically agree with all of this. Facilities are nice, but the school is way too small for how many students there are. It matters a lot more if you actually want to study at school, ever. Or have a study group during finals.

The Uptowner is overpriced, but it's nice that you can get something to eat without leaving the building in a pinch/when it's raining. Since GW is urban, there's plenty of alternative food within walking distance. (Completely unlike where I went to undergrad, which was in an urban area but still very much a "campus.")

Journal competition is 70% grades, 30% write-on (except for AIPLA, which flips the ratio of scores). Law review's current masthead isn't online for some reason, but in 2010-11 it had 73 2L/2LE members, so that's probably between 10-15% of the combined FT/PT classes? (I can't remember whether that year still had a big PT class or was after GW cut the size.) Law Review reserves the right to admit 10% of its invitees based solely on the write-on, but judging by the above numbers that's only a handful of people and who knows how that actually shakes out. Assume you need grades AND a killer write-on for law review.

[cts2012]

Considering GW, just admitted off the WL last week. Do you know (roughly) what percent of the kids that get biglaw are IP?

[Wily]

I saw that GW's percentage going to biglaw after graduation (based on NALP data) fell from 29% for class of 2010 to 20% for 2011, which is worrying. Do you think this downward trend is continuing for the class of 2012?

Also, can you give some examples of what median 3L students are doing after graduation, if you know of some? Do they have post-graduation jobs lined up?

Thanks mi-chan again.

[mi-chan17]

Considering GW, just admitted off the WL last week. Do you know (roughly) what percent of the kids that get biglaw are IP?

I don't, and I don't want to give you information that's based more on guesses than anything else. From what I can tell, our IP folks seem to do very, very well. That said, I think you might want to try and find dood (who, congrats to him, finishes his final year this week), since he's an IP person and would certainly know better than I do.

I saw that GW's percentage going to biglaw after graduation (based on NALP data) fell from 29% for class of 2010 to 20% for 2011, which is worrying. Do you think this downward trend is continuing for the class of 2012?

Also, can you give some examples of what median 3L students are doing after graduation, if you know of some? Do they have post-graduation jobs lined up?

Thanks mi-chan again.

GW's biglaw percentage fell between 2010 and 2011 because the class of 2011 was doing OCI in 2009, immediately after the legal industry's big recession happened. It definitely sucks for those folks, but it isn't indicative of any kind of "downward trend". Now that the deferred associates are basically all accounted for, and firms know what the "new normal" is, I think we'll see a slight increase and then a plateau. I can't promise that, of course, but I don't think that there's an overall downward trend in the making.

Depends on the median student. I know median students who have BigLaw lined up, midlaw lined up, people headed into state government stuff, clerks, and people with nothing lined up. There are a lot of factors at work, really, beyond their grades. I think the median student with biglaw is relatively rare (with the exception of the IPSecure people). The people clerking with median grades are also not as common, though many of them took less prestigious (non-Art. III/Art. I) clerkships. Everything else? I have no idea how common or frequent it is. Might want to ask dood or Paichka if they're around, since they know more graduating 3Ls (as they are graduating 3Ls) than I do.

And it's no problem! Happy to help!

[Wily]

Thanks.

Based on the numbers from class of 2010 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... d3c&gid=11 ) it seems that GW places a really big portion of its class (18.6%) into "government" positions. What types of jobs do you think these are?

Also, could you weigh in on my choice right now - GW with $25000 in scholarship ($70000 debt) v Cardozo with $42000 scholarship ($18000 debt)? I have COL covered from savings. I'm really torn and looking for every opinion I can find. Thanks man.

[mi-chan17]

Based on the numbers from class of 2010 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... d3c&gid=11 ) it seems that GW places a really big portion of its class (18.6%) into "government" positions. What types of jobs do you think these are?

"Government positions" are really a very wide range. We get a few people into federal jobs via the various departments' honors programs - I know folks headed into DOJ, IRS, and CIA. That's not the bulk of that group, but it's not negligible either. GW sends a very large number of people into federal government through PMF - I think this year we sent 14 or so finalists. GW also puts people into state jobs, there are people headed off to DA/PD jobs as well as into state AG offices and state agencies. I don't know the sheer numbers on those, though.

The number also includes people who end up in government doing non-law stuff. Some of the PMF folks may end up falling into that camp, but people also go into some of the agencies to do reg-writing or contract management which are often JD preferred jobs.

As to your question about your situation, I'll PM you my thoughts.

[Wily]

Thanks again Mi-chan.

Random question: How is GW for transnational law? Do you know of anyone from GW who's working overseas, either at a foreign law firm or a US law firm with overseas branches? Specifically, in East Asia? I've heard from another GW grad that GW's name is actually pretty well-known in East Asia. I speak Mandarin fluently, and of Chinese heritage, so I'm curious if transnational law can be an option for me coming out of GW.

[mi-chan17]

Random question: How is GW for transnational law? Do you know of anyone from GW who's working overseas, either at a foreign law firm or a US law firm with overseas branches? Specifically, in East Asia? I've heard from another GW grad that GW's name is actually pretty well-known in East Asia. I speak Mandarin fluently, and of Chinese heritage, so I'm curious if transnational law can be an option for me coming out of GW.

Sorry for the delay in responding. To your first question, I'm not entirely sure I have an answer. GW has a lot of "international law" (which includes stuff like international business transactions) and I think we're highly ranked in it. However, I honestly have absolutely no idea what percentage of people we put into jobs abroad.

I do know we send people to firms that emphasize their overseas offices. I had a callback with a V10 that specifically asked me about my willingness to work in their overseas offices - and though I won't be there this summer, I know a few of my classmates will. Unfortunately, everything I know about stuff like that is anecdotal; I don't have any hard numbers for you.

I think if you have the grades for biglaw, and you interview well and have connections to a big market like China, working for a firm that has Chinese offices is definitely possible. But you'll need the grades for biglaw to get in the door; I don't think GW's name alone will suffice.