Top Law Schools

A prompt and courteous response from Donna:

Hi Joe -
You are absolutely right to do your due diligence. Very few prospective law students do, with unfortunate consequences.
Having said that, I have not even been able to begin compiling that data for the class of 2010 yet due to sheer busyness ! If you would like to email me again in a month I will be able to give you at least some of what you are asking for. (I won't disclose salary data that would identify individuals, i.e. a grad joins a 2 person firm, but will have a range).
I would also be happy to speak with you by telephone.
And the thing that has to be kept in mind is that this data does not necessarily speak to an individual's situation. In the IP world there are undergraduate degrees that are more marketable than others. Are you patent bar eligible? That sort of thing. So a telephone conversation might be helpful to you.
Let me know,
Donna



Donna L. Miller
Assistant Dean for Career Services and Professional Development
University of New Hampshire School of Law
Two White Street
Concord, N.H. 03301
603.228.1541
donna.miller@law.unh.edu

Just got in today. Should be getting a letter in the mail soon, as that's what the status checker said.

Hopefully I get some money. I should, anyway. For IP reasons, this is one of my top schools.

I'm a Bio major with a Chem minor. I should have had a Psych minor, but I really didn't feel like taking another 6 credits.

androstan -- Are there detailed 2009 statistics up anywhere?

joncrooshal wrote:Just got in today. Should be getting a letter in the mail soon, as that's what the status checker said.

Hopefully I get some money. I should, anyway. For IP reasons, this is one of my top schools.

I'm a Bio major with a Chem minor. I should have had a Psych minor, but I really didn't feel like taking another 6 credits.

androstan -- Are there detailed 2009 statistics up anywhere?

Congratz, I hope you get a great offer.

Be a little wary of having only a BS in bio as a qualification for IP. You're more competitive because you can sit for the patent bar, but once you've passed the patent bar you're essentially standing in line behind all the BS engineers and PhD biologists/chemists. Also to some extent behind the BS chemists (which is marginally more marketable than bio but still doesn't open up doors like i.e. chem engr).

I haven't seen 2009 statistics yet.

Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

Get your masters first duder.

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

I'd go for a master's in biotech specifically, rather than i.e. biology.

rad law wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

Get your masters first duder.

Not going to happen.

androstan wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

I'd go for a master's in biotech specifically, rather than i.e. biology.

That would be the plan, if needed. I'll likely do it down the road anyway as I love school.

joncrooshal wrote:

rad law wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

Get your masters first duder.

Not going to happen.

If you don't get your masters first, and preferably PhD, you BS in Bio will NOT make you attractive to IP people. BS in bio is just not good enough. There are like 30 threads about this on TLS if you want to check. Do the masters first so you can get a job after lol school. It's gonna look weird if you do it the other way around.

rad law wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:

rad law wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:Oh, I hear you. If needed, I'm already prepared to get my masters.

Hopefully my connections with a number of NJ Biotech guys will be a plus for me in the future.

Either way, I'm pretty excited about doing law rather than hard sciences over the next 3 years.

Get your masters first duder.

Not going to happen.

If you don't get your masters first, and preferably PhD, you BS in Bio will NOT make you attractive to IP people. BS in bio is just not good enough. There are like 30 threads about this on TLS if you want to check. Do the masters first so you can get a job after lol school. It's gonna look weird if you do it the other way around.

Trust me, I appreciate the advice, but I just need a break from the hard sciences. I transferred and changed majors after being a PharmD major originally (lost interest completely in Pharmacy), so I've been doing mostly catch-up the last few years. Took me two extra years due to credits not transferring, etc., so I am going to take some time off from the hard sciences for a bit. Just can't do it right now.

joncrooshal wrote:

rad law wrote:
If you don't get your masters first, and preferably PhD, you BS in Bio will NOT make you attractive to IP people. BS in bio is just not good enough. There are like 30 threads about this on TLS if you want to check. Do the masters first so you can get a job after lol school. It's gonna look weird if you do it the other way around.

Trust me, I appreciate the advice, but I just need a break from the hard sciences. I transferred and changed majors after being a PharmD major originally (lost interest completely in Pharmacy), so I've been doing mostly catch-up the last few years. Took me two extra years due to credits not transferring, etc., so I am going to take some time off from the hard sciences for a bit. Just can't do it right now.

Your loss bro

rad law wrote:

joncrooshal wrote:

rad law wrote:
If you don't get your masters first, and preferably PhD, you BS in Bio will NOT make you attractive to IP people. BS in bio is just not good enough. There are like 30 threads about this on TLS if you want to check. Do the masters first so you can get a job after lol school. It's gonna look weird if you do it the other way around.

Trust me, I appreciate the advice, but I just need a break from the hard sciences. I transferred and changed majors after being a PharmD major originally (lost interest completely in Pharmacy), so I've been doing mostly catch-up the last few years. Took me two extra years due to credits not transferring, etc., so I am going to take some time off from the hard sciences for a bit. Just can't do it right now.

Your loss bro

If you were in my shoes, you'd be doing the same thing. It's a life choice that I am making right now. Like I said -- thanks for the advice. Don't think I'm discounting it, "bro".

My two penny worth -

Some of the IP litigation attorneys I have worked with either did not hold science degrees or held only equivalents of B.S. But that does not seem to matter as they are doing phenomenally well even in the current economic scenario. Of course, they started at a time when PhDs would not even have been thinking about doing law. But now the field is getting overcrowded with folks with advanced science and engineering degrees. I think when it comes to writing patent applications and prosecuting them, employers seem to be looking only for people with advanced master's or PhD degrees. But in something like IP litigation, people with advanced degrees like PhD are not much preferred actually.

Joymin wrote:My two penny worth -

Some of the IP litigation attorneys I have worked with either did not hold science degrees or held only equivalents of B.S. But that does not seem to matter as they are doing phenomenally well even in the current economic scenario. Of course, they started at a time when PhDs would not even have been thinking about doing law. But now the field is getting overcrowded with folks with advanced science and engineering degrees. I think when it comes to writing patent applications and prosecuting them, employers seem to be looking only for people with advanced master's or PhD degrees. But in something like IP litigation, people with advanced degrees like PhD are not much preferred actually.

Pretty much what I have heard, Joymin.

Accepted last week with 30k/yr in scholarships. Very tempting. I'll keep my eye on this thread

Bluben wrote:Accepted last week with 30k/yr in scholarships. Very tempting. I'll keep my eye on this thread

Does the scholarship info come in the acceptance package or separate email?

spece212 wrote:

Bluben wrote:Accepted last week with 30k/yr in scholarships. Very tempting. I'll keep my eye on this thread

Does the scholarship info come in the acceptance package or separate email?

Comes with your acceptance letter.

Ah..what an excruciating long wait for international post to arrive !!!

Yeah, actually didnt expect a scholly and was very surprised when i got it in the mail.

Doing some research on their website, I found this page very useful

--LinkRemoved--

Bluben wrote:Yeah, actually didnt expect a scholly and was very surprised when i got it in the mail.

Doing some research on their website, I found this page very useful

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.fitzpatrickcella.com/?t=3&A= ... xml&p=2429

androstan wrote:A prompt and courteous response from Donna:

Hi Joe -
You are absolutely right to do your due diligence. Very few prospective law students do, with unfortunate consequences.
Having said that, I have not even been able to begin compiling that data for the class of 2010 yet due to sheer busyness ! If you would like to email me again in a month I will be able to give you at least some of what you are asking for. (I won't disclose salary data that would identify individuals, i.e. a grad joins a 2 person firm, but will have a range).
I would also be happy to speak with you by telephone.
And the thing that has to be kept in mind is that this data does not necessarily speak to an individual's situation. In the IP world there are undergraduate degrees that are more marketable than others. Are you patent bar eligible? That sort of thing. So a telephone conversation might be helpful to you.
Let me know,
Donna



Donna L. Miller
Assistant Dean for Career Services and Professional Development
University of New Hampshire School of Law
Two White Street
Concord, N.H. 03301
603.228.1541
donna.miller@law.unh.edu

Nice work, and glad to see the new dean is being receptive to your request. When we made our first request to the schools we were informed by the previous dean that she could not respond because she was leaving, and that no replacement had yet been found. I encourage you to share whatever information you get with the other applicants so that everyone can get a better handle on the job prospects right now. G'luck.

NH is beautiful. Concord is more of a traditional, historical-looking (especially downtown) area. It's only about an hour from Boston, straight down I-93 South, and a little more than an hour from Portland, around an hour and a half I think. It's perfectly nestled between the ocean, about forty five minutes to an hour away, and the Ski mountains to the north, also about an hour, maybe an hour and a half away. New England in general is a bit more expensive than most places in which to live, but, in my experience, it's well worth it. It's a beautiful place that's close enough to the big cities in Mass, yet far enough away to avoid the hustle and bustle.

androstan wrote:

Bluben wrote:Yeah, actually didnt expect a scholly and was very surprised when i got it in the mail.

Doing some research on their website, I found this page very useful

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.fitzpatrickcella.com/?t=3&A= ... xml&p=2429

Thanks for the links, folks.

Would be interesting to see more details re: alumni who reportedly joined patent firms; for e.g., the average starting salaries at these firms for UNH guys versus the overall average.

Spoke to Donna. She was very candid and understood my personal situation in choosing between UNH and i.e. GW/BU/etc. She graduated from Northwestern. She took 35 years to pay off her student loan debt "because I wanted to become a prosecutor, and deferred for five years."

She said she didn't want to "blow smoke" and claim that, if I go there, I'll definitely have an IP job and make good money etc. She said it's rough out there right now. For instance, in 2006, "Franklin Pierce" had tons of firms trolling their campus for science degrees and USPTO registrations. They were even trolling for 1Ls (yes she used the term trolling). Now there's almost nobody.

At UNH she feels that the externship is what makes or breaks you. In fact, she turned down working at a higher ranked school for UNH because she believes so strongly in their externship program. This is interesting because I heard, independently and over half a year ago, very similar sentiments expressed by 3Ls. She is going to introduce me to Professor Ellen Muzinski, who heads the externship program. Donna said she believes a discussion with Ellen would really help push me one way or another regarding my choices.

She also mentioned USNWR and that the dean is cognizant of the rankings because students put so much weight by them, he thinks they are extremely overrated by students. According to Donna, the dean would not "pander to the rankings" but does have to keep them in mind.

We even discussed how some schools "game" their numbers and she actually got pretty upset about i.e. counting anyone receiving money for work as "employed" whether it's waitressing, clerking, or working at a law firm. She expressed a lot of general disdain for USNWR.

Finally, she mentioned that the outlook for the future is positive right now, if not overwhelmingly so. Job postings for laterals with 3 years experience are up, indicating that firms are moving in the direction of hiring again. Even ITE, she said that if you "really want to do something in particular, and work hard at it, and have a good/positive personality, people are generally still getting it."

I spoke to professor Muzinski for about half an hour. The reason UNH's externship program has been a big boon, and continues to be (to a lesser extent) is because they allow you to do an entire semester of FT work for credit. They've been doing it for decades. Unfortunately many other schools have caught onto this practice and have realized that practical experience is a good thing before one becomes a licensed attorney (who would've thought?).

In the past getting students externships has been easy as there just wasn't hardly any competition for them. So, while the rise of semester-long FT externships at more LS's is good for legal education, it's been hard on professor Muzinski.

She estimated that, in good times, as many as 50% of their externs were hired at the place they externed. On the order of 95% of students that desire an externship get one. That's a pretty stellar outlook relative to UNH's peer institutions. On the other hand, in tougher times, for instance these past two years, as few as 20% of externs have been hired on by the firm/whatever they externed at.

Availability and variety of externships is high if one is loooking nationally, but more limited if you insist on remaining local. That's a big deal for my wife and I. Neither of us is really okay with me cavorting off to NYC/DC/Chic/SoCal/Houston/etc. for 4 months to do an externship.

After speaking with both of these individuals, I feel pretty confident that UNH is a very good choice for BS engineers, MS/PhD scientists, and individuals who want to practice in the area and aren't looking to make the big bucks. It's an even better option for the science/engr group because they can probably nail the LSAT and land a full ride without too much trouble. The 35k/year they've offerred me is extremely tempting, and I may yet take it. Personal matters are probably going to end up making this decision, i.e. if my wife doesn't like the places she's interviewing at (she's in Manchester as we speak) in NH/Boston then we're just not going up there. She already loved the place she interviewed at down here.

Also, in weighing the two options, if I consider the IP programs to be comparable (I believe they are, professor Muzinski corroborated that sentiment on the phone) and the $115k to be the price of a higher starting salary from GW, I may consider that I need to make about 30k more per year for my first four years of practice to pay back that expense. After the first few years I don't think my income will be based very much on where I sent to school. So, I think the programs and the cost are kind of a wash (GW's median salary is greater than UNH's by enough). Where GW gains a significant edge, I feel, is in its local market. I think I'll have significantly more opportunities for work while in LS if I'm at GW.

Some of you TLSers might call me out for this, but I've done a lot of research talking to 3Ls, attorneys, and staff. Whlie UNH may be in the USNWR third tier, it doesn't deserve the "TTT" pejorative. Further, I stand by my prediction that the merger, among other things, will increase its name-recognition. I also stand by my prediction that it will rise into the second tier within a few years as a result.