Franklin Pierce (UNH Law School) Forum

[androstan]

Last thing I forgot to mention:

According to the 3L's I talk to, UNH's externship program is top-notch as they place people all over the country with judges, firms, etc.

[erod13]

Androstan, Considering your average GPA and above average LSAT, you will be remiss not to accept UNH law school scholarship offer. Trust me law school is nothing like undergraduate work, nothing, so you got some work to do. It's never a good idea to be talking about a school you don't know much about. You'll be lucking to have UNH, not the other way around. Be Humble! I'm a 1L at UNH, so feel free to shoot me a note if you have any questions.

[Aqualibrium]

Androstan, Considering your average GPA and above average LSAT, you will be remiss not to accept UNH law school scholarship offer. Trust me law school is nothing like undergraduate work, nothing, so you got some work to do. It's never a good idea to be talking about a school you don't know much about. You'll be lucking to have UNH, not the other way around. Be Humble! I'm a 1L at UNH, so feel free to shoot me a note if you have any questions.

LOL What are you talking about? Didn't look to me like Andro did anything to deserve your chastising or subtle insults.

[snapdragon]

Androstan, Considering your average GPA and above average LSAT, you will be remiss not to accept UNH law school scholarship offer. Trust me law school is nothing like undergraduate work, nothing, so you got some work to do. It's never a good idea to be talking about a school you don't know much about. You'll be lucking to have UNH, not the other way around. Be Humble! I'm a 1L at UNH, so feel free to shoot me a note if you have any questions.

Did you read Androstan's posts? He is already accepted with a significant scholarship to UNH and comparing it against an acceptance to a T1 school. In no way is he failing to be "humble". And he is trying to obtain and share information (much of which, might I add, has been positive) about UNH and its programs/employment stats. Frankly, I appreciate his commentary and insight very much. There's not a lot out there about UNH on this message board, so his posts have been an interesting resource to me.

Androstan - were you able to negotiate the 3.2 GPA requirement of that scholly at all? UNH with almost full tuition would be very attractive to me, but not if I ended up paying the full $39k after year 1.

[androstan]

Androstan - were you able to negotiate the 3.2 GPA requirement of that scholly at all? UNH with almost full tuition would be very attractive to me, but not if I ended up paying the full $39k after year 1.

I haven't done anything in the way of negotiations yet. I think American and George Mason tend to make offers in January/February and George Washington doesn't even start accepting people until after Christmas. Also, I get my new LSAT score in early January.

Once I have some of these pieces in place, I feel I will be in a stronger position to negotiate.

By the way, if your GPA falls below 3.2, your scholarship is prorated down. It's not an "all or nothing" deal. If your GPA is a little below, you lose a little of the scholarship. You also have the chance to bring your GPA up and regain the full scholarship. Finally, they give merit-based aid after the first year to their strongest students.

I consider myself very fortunate. My UGPA is pretty dismal and I think UNH looked beyond that at my personal statement, my work experience, my 3.64 graduate GPA, and my personal visit there earlier this year (over the summer). Yes, my LSAT is pretty good, but as far as their rankings are concerned a 167 LSAT boosts their 75th percentile LSAT as much as a 160 LSAT. I'm very lucky to have the opportunity to obtain a license to practice law nearly for free in an area my wife and I would be happy to settle down. Furthermore, at a place that specializes in the kind of law I want to do.

When my wife and I visited over the summer we had a very positive impression. It didn't look like a "TTT". It looked vibrant, fresh, and well-funded. The people were friendly and seemed genuine. Concord is very pretty and the campus is right across the street from a duck pond. My wife and I are fairly outdoorsy. I've spoken to two chemical patent attorneys who graduated from UNH, one in 2003 and another in the 90's, and they are both doing well. They are looking to hire new patent attorneys. They sounded intelligent, professional, and both were very happy with their choice.

I need to weigh all the relevant factors. The USPTO is down here near DC. GMU and American may make $ offers, however unlikely that is. GWU is at least on par with UNH in terms of being an IP powerhouse, and they may accept me. The DC market is oversaturated as people from all over the country flock to our nation's political/legal center. My wife has more/better career options in NOVA. While the UNH 3L's I talk to say good things, it's true that they don't have jobs lined up.

You might try just shooting him a PM. He still posts every once in a while and I'm sure he'd be happy to answer your question.

Thanks jwaters, I sent Ken a PM. His input would be invaluable.

I'm glad to see the FP/UNH board a little more alive . I encourage everyone else to get in touch with 3L's, talk to Patricia and/or faculty via e-mail, and in general learn as much as they can about the school. It would be very useful to compare notes and see if others come/came to the same conclusions independently.

[androstan]

bump bump bump bump

[snapdragon]

bump bump bump bump

Sent in my app last week One of the many areas I'd like to end up is the ME/VT/NH region, so with the right scholarship, UNH could be a nice option!

[Joymin]

All the best!

This topic on TLS has helped us, I think.

[Kurt Cobain]

I got in and visited the other day. The faculty I spoke to were helpful, and the school itself seemed really nice. Concord seems kind of small-towny though. Not sure if I'm into that...

[androstan]

I got in and visited the other day. The faculty I spoke to were helpful, and the school itself seemed really nice. Concord seems kind of small-towny though. Not sure if I'm into that...

Yeah, we (my wife and I) like the small town vibe.

[androstan]

I got into GWU PT so I have a tough decision to make. Follow the prestige/ranking or follow the $$$. They're both great patent/IP schools.

[jaestro]

I just got accepted to UNH, how long does it take before they offer scholarships?
Personally, if u want to work in NE, definitely take an almost full ride over GW. I mean, GW is far from a lock when it comes to lucrative employment.
I find the small new england employment idea tempting, and when comparing U of Maine, UNH, and Vermont, I think Maine offers the nicest town to live in, but that school offers little in terms of scholarship. VT offers scholarship, but it is in the middle of nowhere (and they ask for additional essays, which I find somewhat humorous for a TTT, but I guess if someone really wanted to go there they would write one, but the extra essay made me not even apply). UNH seems to be the best of all three in that it is somewhat in a populated town, and it offers significant scholarships.

[Joymin]

Jaestro,

GWU is "far from a lock when it comes to lucrative employment." Can you please elaborate.

Androstan,

On second thoughts, you got into the part-time program at GWU. Would that not allow you to cover up for the cost of living, etc. if you had a job in Washington D.C.? Why I am surprised on your thinking twice about GWU is that I went through a lot of posts/comments here on TLS that emphasized how important the school's rank is in your career. So I was wondering why would you let go of GWU.

Thanks.

[jaestro]

I think a schools rank is certainly important, but GW, although a 20 school, is not in the lock category in terms of employment. If one works in a part time program, but does not leave enough time to study properly, he/she could be out performed, and have a poor class rank. And a poor class rank (below median, or maybe not even top third) would leave that person in trouble. And when you compare a full ride at UNH vs GW at sticker, it gets interesting. If you are living in DC versus New Hampshire the COL is almost double. Also, paying debt vs not paying debt, means an extra annual 15 k. What I mean is if someone is debt free making 100k, and someone else is making 115-120k with debt, their salaries are pretty much the same. I guess it depends on what you want. 60k and no debt, and if you enjoy the outdoors, is a better life in NH than hoping to a higher power that you can pay off your debts while living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and hoping that you are fortunate enough to have a job with little down time to pay off your loans.
Pretty much, if you are not a T14, or T17 school, you should find a school that gives you some opportunity, but also an opportunity not to incur so much debt.
If you compare these schools to big law, you will see that the top 14 can bring about half of their students to high paying salaries, where another good portion are in areas of law that they wish to pursue. Most of the 17-30 schools produce big law jobs at 25 percent, while 30-50 schools place big law at 15-20 percent. Therefore, don't be dooped into thinking a 20 school is hot shit, and worth sticker, when you could be offered much more money at a 50 school, and your chances for employment are relatively the same.

[androstan]

Jaestro,

GWU is "far from a lock when it comes to lucrative employment." Can you please elaborate.

Androstan,

On second thoughts, you got into the part-time program at GWU. Would that not allow you to cover up for the cost of living, etc. if you had a job in Washington D.C.? Why I am surprised on your thinking twice about GWU is that I went through a lot of posts/comments here on TLS that emphasized how important the school's rank is in your career. So I was wondering why would you let go of GWU.

Thanks.

I am coordinating things with my wife's career. There are no residencies she's in love with in DC, but there is one in Manchester, NH and another in Boston. She's from Merrimack, NH originally. She has agreed to interview at one place in DC because it has some potential, and maybe she'll fall in love with it at the interview.

She already has 100k in student loans from pharmacy school.

The residencies she likes in the south are a good hour and a half to two hours from DC. We'd try to live in the middle and both commute 45 minutes to an hour each way. That's rough.

[snapdragon]

In with $33k/year contingent on a 3.2 - definitely makes a trip up to Concord worthwhile. Doing the math, $18k of total tuition debt is certainly attractive.

andro - be pleased to know that in the grand spreadsheet of life either you are worth precisely $2k more per year than me (or that an early app is worth $2k more than a later one)

[androstan]

In with $33k/year contingent on a 3.2 - definitely makes a trip up to Concord worthwhile. Doing the math, $18k of total tuition debt is certainly attractive.

andro - be pleased to know that in the grand spreadsheet of life either you are worth precisely $2k more per year than me (or that an early app is worth $2k more than a later one)

That's great snap! I think it's the timing of the app more than anything else, as money goes out there's less left so they offer less. NH is a somewhat underserved market, I think, since there is only one (relatively small) law school in the state. Prospects from UNH should be solid.

Let us all know what you think when you visit.

[spece212]

International applicant. Got accepted today at UNH (applied 1/16). I have a tech background and I am interested in IP law. School has strong international reputation as well.

Any idea when they send scholarship information? Also is there an official UNH 2014 thread?

[Joymin]

Wow! I had applied in January as an international applicant, and I too got an acceptance email today. And like the person right above, I too want to know when they send scholarship info, if it all.

Thanks to all participants of this message thread.

[observationalist]

We've been going through a lot of the data schools put up on their websites, and I wanted to alert all of you to a major flaw in how UNH is advertising its employment statistics. To see what I'm talking about, compare what's on the website (http://law.unh.edu/careers/students-gra ... istics.php) with the more detailed breakdown the school provided to U.S. News, both of which attempt to describe the Class of 2008: --LinkRemoved--

According to the website, the 25/median/75 salaries for the 62% of the class who entered the private sector were $75K, $129K, and $152K. A separate question is why the school reported lower numbers to U.S. News (75/120/142), but that's beside the point.

The real problem is that the school does not tell you how many people reported salaries on the website. This omission means you may incorrectly assume that the median salary is actually the median salary. In reality, the market was not that strong for UNH grads in 2008, and it's even less so now. Once you exclude everyone who didn't actually report a salary and recalculate in terms of the entire class, it turns out that about 40% of 2008 graduates made $75K or more.

Looking at this the other way, this means that more than half the class likely made less than 75K (though we don't know for sure because the school never disclosed that information). This was two years ago, when the hiring market was significantly better than it is now. Without knowing information for the most recent class, there is no way to tell how many recent graduates obtained legal jobs this year, or what their salaries were, or what kinds of employers hired them. Given that the average debt load is high for UNH grads ($115K in 2009), this means that perhaps half the class was not able to make enough to begin paying off their loans. While the federal IBR program now caps monthly payments at 15% of your AGI, IBR was not available for '08 grads.

To learn more, I strongly suggest contacting career services and asking to see more detailed data focusing on the most recent class. Specifically, you should request a complete employer list for the Class of 2010, along with both salary 25/median/75ths and the percentage of graduates who reported a salary. The employer list contains a row for each graduate, showing the name of the employer and the city/state. Career services should be just about done collecting the data for Class of 2010 and the information will be right in front of them. At a minimum you should press for information on the number of graduates who found a job that required a JD. If you're having difficulty getting them to respond, feel free to let us know and we can try to help you out.

Your goal as a consumer is to get the school to disclose this data so that you can start researching employers and figure out if you are satisfied with the risk involved. There is no reason why the school should not be comfortable providing you the names of employers so that you can do your own research and learn more about the opportunities for UNH graduates. G'luck.

[Grizz]

Agree with Obs. Also be EXTREMELY wary of the 3.2 GPS-contingent scholarships, depending on how much they pro-rate. I would put good money on it that they give out more of these than there are people that can maintain a 3.2 with the curve.

[Black-Blue]

We've been going through a lot of the data schools put up on their websites, and I wanted to alert all of you to a major flaw in how UNH is advertising its employment statistics. To see what I'm talking about, compare what's on the website (http://law.unh.edu/careers/students-gra ... istics.php) with the more detailed breakdown the school provided to U.S. News, both of which attempt to describe the Class of 2008: --LinkRemoved--

According to the website, the 25/median/75 salaries for the 62% of the class who entered the private sector were $75K, $129K, and $152K. A separate question is why the school reported lower numbers to U.S. News (75/120/142), but that's beside the point.

You can kinda figure it out.

LST says that 75 percent went to private sector, and of those in the private sector, 75% reported salaries. Its website says that the mean salary of the reported is $111,705. Based on the percentages, this represents 56% of the total class.

If I were to guess the salaries, I'd say:

56% - 111k (private sector reporting (75%*75%))
19% - 40k (private sector not reporting (75%*25%)). I assume 50k because that's reasonable. A number of people might be in document review (employed in retail, bartending, etc.), balance that with people too lazy to report is gets to around 40k.
20% - 45k (employed other)
6% - 0k unemployed

Average salary is around 78k for class of 2008

But since the economy tanked afterward, it would be lower for more recent classes. Maybe more like 65k for class of 2010.

[observationalist]

We've been going through a lot of the data schools put up on their websites, and I wanted to alert all of you to a major flaw in how UNH is advertising its employment statistics. To see what I'm talking about, compare what's on the website (http://law.unh.edu/careers/students-gra ... istics.php) with the more detailed breakdown the school provided to U.S. News, both of which attempt to describe the Class of 2008: --LinkRemoved--

According to the website, the 25/median/75 salaries for the 62% of the class who entered the private sector were $75K, $129K, and $152K. A separate question is why the school reported lower numbers to U.S. News (75/120/142), but that's beside the point.

You can kinda figure it out.

LST says that 75 percent went to private sector, and of those in the private sector, 75% reported salaries. Its website says that the mean salary of the reported is $111,705. Based on the percentages, this represents 56% of the total class.

If I were to guess the salaries, I'd say:

56% - 111k (private sector reporting (75%*75%))
19% - 50k (private sector not reporting (75%*25%)). I assume 50k because that's reasonable. A number of people might be in document review, balance that with people too lazy to report is gets to around 50k.
20% - 45k (employed other)
6% - 0k unemployed

Average salary is around 80k for class of 2008

But since the economy tanked afterward, it would be lower for more recent classes.

The $111K mean is representative of at most 53% of the class, and keep in mind mean statistics are not helpful because of the all-or-none nature of the entry level hiring market. LST takes the data submitted to U.S. News, and if you read the key facts and assumptions at the top you'll see that there are problems with this data because of how U.S. News calculates the employment percentages. This means even the LST charts might still appear better than the actual results for that year. If you hover over the blue bars at the top you can see the percentages of the total class... for which 40% of the class were making 75K or higher, and 60% were presumably making less than 75K.

But regardless, the point is that these numbers should not be relied upon when calculating your debt load or deciding on whether to attend a particular school. You need to contact career services and ask to see the raw data with enough granular detail to get a good idea of what you're getting yourself into. Different schools have weathered the economic downturn differently. It's possible that UNH is still offering 75K salaries for 40% of the class, but it's also possible that only 10% of the class have that opportunity, or that half the class will not secure legal employment whatsoever. The only way to know is to see what the Class of 2010 data looks like.

[androstan]

I sent the following e-mail to the career services department:

Dear Donna,

I was admitted into the Fall 2011 class. I'm interested in UNH primarily because of their IP/patent program, I have a BS in CHE and a master's in chemistry.

I thought now may be a good time to inquire about the 2010 graduating class since you are likely compiling data regarding them now. Could you send me a listing of employers (or graduate program, etc.), geographic locations, salaries, and any other information you have available and think is relevant? I don't want any information that could be used to personally identify any particular graduate, I respect their privacy. I also know that the most recent couple of years have been particularly bad for the legal sector all around, and that the economy is probably back on the uptick, so I shouldn't be too discouraged by less-than-stellar prospects for 2010 graduates.

I'm trying to get as much information about what graduates are going on to do as possible. My wife and I aren't sure if we'll settle in the area or not and we are coordinating two professional careers in tough economic times. This is very difficult and we need to know everything we can.

Thank you in advance for your help and advice. All the best.
Joe Blow

[Black-Blue]

The only way to know is to see what the Class of 2010 data looks like.

Of course, law is kind of like all or nothing (in that the top 10% of the class might be 3 or 4 times better off than the top 50%), so means and medians aren't very useful.

As for class of 2010 data, many schools have released class of 2009 data, but the rest of the schools haven't even released the 2009 data and will not do so until forced to by the USNEWS publication (after which they have nothing to hide). Obviously, the reason being that 2009 data looks a lot worse than 2008 data. 2010 might look still worse than 2009.