AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:15 am

So, can you please admit that you're a staff or attending student, holding the front line of defense for this schools reputation? You like to "reinterpret" their glaring deficiencies and soften up these hard facts. Why should any student want to go a school as broken and dysfunctionally managed as Ave Maria?

In a law school full of lemons, Ave Maria's acid could burn straight through your mouth. The best case scenario for those poor souls who would are going to attend in the future is for this whole project to fold on itself and close down for good.
Last edited by Mickey Quicknumbers on Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Grizz » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:15 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:Bottom line there Rad:

Would you use this as a safety school if you were a conservative Catholic?


No, because it would probably be safer to not go to law school at all.

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sundance95
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby sundance95 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:17 am

rad law wrote:redsox, just go to Ave. You'll be fine. Don't listen to the naysayers.


QFT

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dresden doll
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby dresden doll » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:18 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:
And one of the biggest idiots I ever met dressed up their cat...but it was nice talking to you! :)


Yeah, because people never have tars of animals they don't personally own.

You're AveMariasecure for sure.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:40 am

delBarco wrote:So, can you please admit that you're a staff or attending student, holding the front line of defense for this schools reputation? You like to "reinterpret" their glaring deficiencies and soften up these hard facts. Why should any student want to go a school as broken and dysfunctionally managed as Ave Maria?

In a law school full of lemons, Ave Maria's acid could burn straight through your mouth. The best case scenario for those poor souls who would are going to attend in the future is for this whole project to fold on itself and close down for good.



delBarco,

I don't attend or work for Ave Maria. I'm getting my MA at another institution. I am interested in Canon Law and if Rome does not work out (logistically) I wanted to have a back up plan. That plan was law school.

I am interested in Ave Maria, because a lot (but not all) of Catholic colleges have absolutely failed in keeping themselves Catholic at all in terms of outlook or identity. In fact, my Catholicism was more respected in many ways at a public University than it was at a private Jesuit University.

I am still looking at several other schools some of which are public, one is protestant, surprisingly some Jesuit, and others running by other Catholic orders.

And I still think Ave Maria will ultimately succeed and crack the top 100 in 30 years or less.

What I am trying to figure out now is what schools to look at contender schools and what schools to have as my safety schools.

This getting through to you yet?

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:40 am

dresden doll wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:
And one of the biggest idiots I ever met dressed up their cat...but it was nice talking to you! :)


Yeah, because people never have tars of animals they don't personally own.

You're AveMariasecure for sure.


:roll: Toughen up Sally!

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:42 am

rad law wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:Bottom line there Rad:

Would you use this as a safety school if you were a conservative Catholic?


No, because it would probably be safer to not go to law school at all.



And this exactly proves why Catholic Universities where founded in the US to being with.

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General Tso
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby General Tso » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:58 am

there are plenty of decent Catholic law schools out there. why settle for the worst one? it's not like you need to be a genius to get into Univ. of San Diego.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:15 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:
delBarco wrote:So, can you please admit that you're a staff or attending student, holding the front line of defense for this schools reputation? You like to "reinterpret" their glaring deficiencies and soften up these hard facts. Why should any student want to go a school as broken and dysfunctionally managed as Ave Maria?

In a law school full of lemons, Ave Maria's acid could burn straight through your mouth. The best case scenario for those poor souls who would are going to attend in the future is for this whole project to fold on itself and close down for good.



delBarco,

I don't attend or work for Ave Maria. I'm getting my MA at another institution. I am interested in Canon Law and if Rome does not work out (logistically) I wanted to have a back up plan. That plan was law school.

I am interested in Ave Maria, because a lot (but not all) of Catholic colleges have absolutely failed in keeping themselves Catholic at all in terms of outlook or identity. In fact, my Catholicism was more respected in many ways at a public University than it was at a private Jesuit University.

I am still looking at several other schools some of which are public, one is protestant, surprisingly some Jesuit, and others running by other Catholic orders.

And I still think Ave Maria will ultimately succeed and crack the top 100 in 30 years or less.

What I am trying to figure out now is what schools to look at contender schools and what schools to have as my safety schools.

This getting through to you yet?


Yeah it's "getting through to me" now that you've articulated it for the first time. Listen, i'm sympathetic to the idea of keeping religion centric in your everyday life, but to do so at the expense of going to Ave Maria would be terrible, terrible decision with painfully long lasting repercussions. You can defend the school all you want because of its Catholicism, but if you decide to ever break out of your cognitive dissonance then STAY THE FRICK AWAY FROM AVE MARIA.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:28 am

You can't be Catholic at some other crappy law school?

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Grizz
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Grizz » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:41 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:And I still think Ave Maria will ultimately succeed and crack the top 100 in 30 years or less.


Even if it does, it won't matter because

1) it won't be soon enough to help you get your first jobs and 2) top 100 is a meaningless distinction anyways

redsoxfan77 wrote:And this exactly proves why Catholic Universities where founded in the US to being with.


You don't get it. I'm anti-Ave because it feeds more law grads into a market already filled with grads from 10 other schools. Catholicism has nothing to do with it.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:51 am

delBarco wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:
delBarco wrote:So, can you please admit that you're a staff or attending student, holding the front line of defense for this schools reputation? You like to "reinterpret" their glaring deficiencies and soften up these hard facts. Why should any student want to go a school as broken and dysfunctionally managed as Ave Maria?

In a law school full of lemons, Ave Maria's acid could burn straight through your mouth. The best case scenario for those poor souls who would are going to attend in the future is for this whole project to fold on itself and close down for good.



delBarco,

I don't attend or work for Ave Maria. I'm getting my MA at another institution. I am interested in Canon Law and if Rome does not work out (logistically) I wanted to have a back up plan. That plan was law school.

I am interested in Ave Maria, because a lot (but not all) of Catholic colleges have absolutely failed in keeping themselves Catholic at all in terms of outlook or identity. In fact, my Catholicism was more respected in many ways at a public University than it was at a private Jesuit University.

I am still looking at several other schools some of which are public, one is protestant, surprisingly some Jesuit, and others running by other Catholic orders.

And I still think Ave Maria will ultimately succeed and crack the top 100 in 30 years or less.

What I am trying to figure out now is what schools to look at contender schools and what schools to have as my safety schools.

This getting through to you yet?


Yeah it's "getting through to me" now that you've articulated it for the first time. Listen, i'm sympathetic to the idea of keeping religion centric in your everyday life, but to do so at the expense of going to Ave Maria would be terrible, terrible decision with painfully long lasting repercussions. You can defend the school all you want because of its Catholicism, but if you decide to ever break out of your cognitive dissonance then STAY THE FRICK AWAY FROM AVE MARIA.


Defending it' Catholicism was part of my reasoning, but honestly not a big part for sticking up for Ave. The arguments against it initially weren't that convincing. The most convincing aspect was the negative peer rankings.

I do appreciate your opinion though.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:53 am

General Tso wrote:there are plenty of decent Catholic law schools out there. why settle for the worst one? it's not like you need to be a genius to get into Univ. of San Diego.



Eh, it's Catholic, but more liberal Catholic as in "yeah were Catholic so we can bash it and it's ok." Haven't heard that many great things about USD either.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:55 am

Kobe_Teeth wrote:You can't be Catholic at some other crappy law school?



As mentioned before Ave was to be a safety school among many many others at this point. But one at which I felt that I might have been happy to attend if I didn't get into the other schools I was looking at.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:01 am

rad law wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:And I still think Ave Maria will ultimately succeed and crack the top 100 in 30 years or less.


Even if it does, it won't matter because

1) it won't be soon enough to help you get your first jobs and 2) top 100 is a meaningless distinction anyways

redsoxfan77 wrote:And this exactly proves why Catholic Universities where founded in the US to being with.


You don't get it. I'm anti-Ave because it feeds more law grads into a market already filled with grads from 10 other schools. Catholicism has nothing to do with it.


The prediction was just that, a prediction. It was nothing I was actually thinking could help me out in 2011.

Ave students don't have the reputation for sticking around in Florida. Chances are that those who hire them might do so for their beliefs. In other words it would seem to be so specialized a field to scarcely come into contact with the mainstream job market that I am surprised it would annoy anyone at all.

Finally is there a market in the US that isn't over-saturated?

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General Tso
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby General Tso » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:33 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:
General Tso wrote:there are plenty of decent Catholic law schools out there. why settle for the worst one? it's not like you need to be a genius to get into Univ. of San Diego.



Eh, it's Catholic, but more liberal Catholic as in "yeah were Catholic so we can bash it and it's ok." Haven't heard that many great things about USD either.


USF, Seattle U, Notre Dame, various Loyolas, Fordham, Georgetown, hell even Catholic U is better than Ave Maria. Are you that unconfident in your ability to score a 155+ on the LSAT that you;'ve settled on one of the worst law schools in the country?

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:58 am

General Tso wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:
General Tso wrote:there are plenty of decent Catholic law schools out there. why settle for the worst one? it's not like you need to be a genius to get into Univ. of San Diego.



Eh, it's Catholic, but more liberal Catholic as in "yeah were Catholic so we can bash it and it's ok." Haven't heard that many great things about USD either.


USF, Seattle U, Notre Dame, various Loyolas, Fordham, Georgetown, hell even Catholic U is better than Ave Maria. Are you that unconfident in your ability to score a 155+ on the LSAT that you;'ve settled on one of the worst law schools in the country?



USF, a buddy graduated from there in 2008 and felt that while he liked his education that it was over priced. He also felt that more emphasis placed on doing a great job during the summer internships and getting great recommendations was more important than the reputation of the school. It's also the most liberal catholic school in the country. Not sure how that affects the law program, but I imagine it does. Almost CINO.

Seattle U- No interest in going to Seattle or bringing the fam there. CINO.

Notre Dame- The dream school.

Fordham- No interest in NYC.

Georgetown- While some of a current professor has gone to Georgetown who would write a good recommendation, I would wait to see my LSAT scores before I went here.

Catholic U- Also looking at given I can obtain both a JD and a JCL degree. Thought the thread on that school had a lot of legit criticism that doesn't help the school look good.

I think getting a 155 would be on the low end of my LSAT scores, but we'll see. Studying like crazy.

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Grizz
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Grizz » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:23 am

redsoxfan77 wrote:USF, a buddy graduated from there in 2008 and felt that while he liked his education that it was over priced. He also felt that more emphasis placed on doing a great job during the summer internships and getting great recommendations was more important than the reputation of the school. It's also the most liberal catholic school in the country. Not sure how that affects the law program, but I imagine it does. Almost CINO.


Ummm pretty much all legal education that costs $35k+ a year at schools not called HYSCCN is over-priced.

HTH

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dresden doll
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby dresden doll » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:10 pm

redsoxfan77 wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:
And one of the biggest idiots I ever met dressed up their cat...but it was nice talking to you! :)


Yeah, because people never have tars of animals they don't personally own.

You're AveMariasecure for sure.


:roll: Toughen up Sally!


You're ridiculous, and I say that without a hint of sarcasm.

Why don't you just pick up a Theology Ph. D. for Christ's sakes? I don't see how LS is for you if you're this bent on embellishing an institution's employment figures merely because they're as conservative as you'd like a school to be.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:58 pm

redsoxfan77 wrote:Finally is there a market in the US that isn't over-saturated?

Medical/health care, IT, and some branches of engineering come to mind, but that's not the point.

The point is that law is both over-saturated and requires you to invest tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars and three years of your life for the privilege of searching for a job in an over-saturated market. Not everyone can be an investment banker or a doctor, either, but failing in your quest to become the former doesn't require going into $100,000+ in debt, and the entrance criteria for medical schools keep the latter from facing the troubles of the legal world. Quite honestly, what kind of job do you see yourself getting out of Ave Maria Law School, and how much debt do you see yourself getting into to go? I broke the numbers down for you earlier, and I'm curious to see your take on it.

I'm also curious why you are so adamant that you go to a pervasively conservative Catholic school? Is it that you think you'll feel out of place if you don't, or are you hoping for a legal experience where Catholic teachings inform the classroom instruction, or something else?

For what it's worth, I go to a Catholic law school, and could share my views if you'd like.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:11 pm

You're ridiculous, and I say that without a hint of sarcasm.

Why don't you just pick up a Theology Ph. D. for Christ's sakes? I don't see how LS is for you if you're this bent on embellishing an institution's employment figures merely because they're as conservative as you'd like a school to be.



LOL, saying what the statistic is stating is not embellishing. If anything the statistic itself embellishes.

Perhaps you can answer a question though. If the statistic is embellishing, (and I'm not saying that it is not), because only a low percentage of graduating students reported why didn't the students who graduated and did not find employment report? Personally, if I was to spend 30K+ a year and couldn't find a job in 9 months I would report it because I would have been annoyed by my unemployment.

And a theology PhD could be in the works later in life, but not where I am going right now.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:35 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
redsoxfan77 wrote:Finally is there a market in the US that isn't over-saturated?

Medical/health care, IT, and some branches of engineering come to mind, but that's not the point.

The point is that law is both over-saturated and requires you to invest tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars and three years of your life for the privilege of searching for a job in an over-saturated market. Not everyone can be an investment banker or a doctor, either, but failing in your quest to become the former doesn't require going into $100,000+ in debt, and the entrance criteria for medical schools keep the latter from facing the troubles of the legal world. Quite honestly, what kind of job do you see yourself getting out of Ave Maria Law School, and how much debt do you see yourself getting into to go? I broke the numbers down for you earlier, and I'm curious to see your take on it.

I'm also curious why you are so adamant that you go to a pervasively conservative Catholic school? Is it that you think you'll feel out of place if you don't, or are you hoping for a legal experience where Catholic teachings inform the classroom instruction, or something else?

For what it's worth, I go to a Catholic law school, and could share my views if you'd like.


Thanks,

When I was talking about markets, I meant legal markets.

I'm not adamant to go to a Catholic school, though I would prefer it. I even mentioned earlier that I am looking at a Protestant school and some state run schools. I do have the expectation though that if I go to a Catholic law school that it would at least be respectful of it's heritage. A lot of "Catholic" universities in the US (and elsewhere) have professors that bash the Church without ever giving a fair voice to Rome's point of view or reasoning. In classes where I have tried to give voice to that reasoning, which is often rational, the professors made it clear that their class was not one in which a discussion between two opposing view points could discussed. One professor even went so far as to say "Why the hell are you even going to school here then?!!!" when he found out that I was a conservative Catholic. Ideally, it is experiences like that I am trying to avoid. I'm not saying all teachers were like this. Or even a majority. In my personal experience it was only 25% of the staff that acted this way. Furthermore, there was not one conservative on this faculty that I have met. I just feel like I was only hearing one half of a discussion in the field I was studying.

As for how this affects how law schools are run, I'm not sure that it does at all. I don't imagine religion to be in the big picture at law school unless I were to go to a school such as Ave or Pepperdine. The other Catholic schools such as Notre Dame, Santa Clara, etc... I would hope could deepen my faith outside of the class, but I don't necessarily feel the need for it to do so inside the class. The bigger picture, for me, is to go to a school in which the conservative view of the law is, if not totally agreed upon, at least respected. It would be nice, for once, to not be in the minority on this.

Hopefully this will explain to some of the readers what/why I am looking at some of the schools I am.

czelede
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby czelede » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:46 pm

redsoxfan77 wrote:
Thanks,

When I was talking about markets, I meant legal markets.

I'm not adamant to go to a Catholic school, though I would prefer it. I even mentioned earlier that I am looking at a Protestant school and some state run schools. I do have the expectation though that if I go to a Catholic law school that it would at least be respectful of it's heritage. A lot of "Catholic" universities in the US (and elsewhere) have professors that bash the Church without ever giving a fair voice to Rome's point of view or reasoning. In classes where I have tried to give voice to that reasoning, which is often rational, the professors made it clear that their class was not one in which a discussion between two opposing view points could discussed. One professor even went so far as to say "Why the hell are you even going to school here then?!!!" when he found out that I was a conservative Catholic. Ideally, it is experiences like that I am trying to avoid. I'm not saying all teachers were like this. Or even a majority. In my personal experience it was only 25% of the staff that acted this way. Furthermore, there was not one conservative on this faculty that I have met. I just feel like I was only hearing one half of a discussion in the field I was studying.

As for how this affects how law schools are run, I'm not sure that it does at all. I don't imagine religion to be in the big picture at law school unless I were to go to a school such as Ave or Pepperdine. The other Catholic schools such as Notre Dame, Santa Clara, etc... I would hope could deepen my faith outside of the class, but I don't necessarily feel the need for it to do so inside the class. The bigger picture, for me, is to go to a school in which the conservative view of the law is, if not totally agreed upon, at least respected. It would be nice, for once, to not be in the minority on this.

Hopefully this will explain to some of the readers what/why I am looking at some of the schools I am.


In my opinion, going to a school where more people agree with your views about the law is not worth the dismal employment prospects and the diminished quality of your education. Regardless of how adamant you are about an 11 year old Tier 4 law school breaking Tier 1 in the next three decades (which I highly, highly, highly doubt will even come close to happening) at present, you are talking about a school that:

- Leaves their students with an average debt of 90k even with financial assistance
- Has a median GPA/LSAT of 3.22/150 (this speaks to the average quality of your peers, who will engage you in discussion and who you will also learn from)
- Offers you limited employment opportunities to pay back your debt, considering the lack of alumni network and overall crappy ranking (even if this improves in 30 years, it certainly won't help you now)
- Has a bar passage rate less than the state average

Honestly, people will disagree with you in life - this doesn't preclude dissenting faculty from providing you a first class legal education.

redsoxfan77
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby redsoxfan77 » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:05 pm

czelede wrote:
In my opinion, going to a school where more people agree with your views about the law is not worth the dismal employment prospects and the diminished quality of your education. Regardless of how adamant you are about an 11 year old Tier 4 law school breaking Tier 1 in the next three decades (which I highly, highly, highly doubt will even come close to happening) at present, you are talking about a school that:

- Leaves their students with an average debt of 90k even with financial assistance
- Has a median GPA/LSAT of 3.22/150 (this speaks to the average quality of your peers, who will engage you in discussion and who you will also learn from)
- Offers you limited employment opportunities to pay back your debt, considering the lack of alumni network and overall crappy ranking (even if this improves in 30 years, it certainly won't help you now)
- Has a bar passage rate less than the state average

Honestly, people will disagree with you in life - this doesn't preclude dissenting faculty from providing you a first class legal education.



Well there you go, the practical difference between LS and other schools at a university. Though at this point, if I applied to Ave it would merely be a safety school.

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Chupavida
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Re: AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL

Postby Chupavida » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:13 pm

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Last edited by Chupavida on Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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