AVE MARIA LAW SCHOOL Forum

[d34d9823]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

He'll be back for more as soon as he finishes editing their Wikipedia entry.

[redsoxfan77]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

[OrdinarilySkilled]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

I feel like credibility is inversly related to the number of S's a person uses to refer to the LSAT. Also don't provoke people to give you reasons why not to go there if you actually want to. Just apply and go about your day.

[d34d9823]

I feel like credibility is inversly related to the number of S's a person uses to refer to the LSAT. Also don't provoke people to give you reasons why not to go there if you actually want to. Just apply andgo about your day.enjoy the soul-crushing feeling of $200K of debt with no job prospects.

FTFY

[redsoxfan77]

I feel like credibility is inversly related to the number of S's a person uses to refer to the LSAT. Also don't provoke people to give you reasons why not to go there if you actually want to. Just apply and go about your day.

Absolutely absurd. If someone has a valid critique of the school they should just say so. Calling the school an abomination without offering the slightest bit of evidence for those statements is ridiculous. What I am clearly asking for is content in your arguments not childish meandering.

If you're not going to ask questions or give comments about the university then why are you wasting your time and everyone else's?

[sundance95]

How is 'the school is shit, and provides no credible path to employment,' NOT a valid critique?

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

Valid critiques against the school:
1.the employment prospects are god-awful
2.the employment prospects will not improve because
a) it is competing with 11 other law schools in the state
b) Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's
3. the religious stigma scares away employers
4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree
5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier
6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects
7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff

In sum: there is absolutely no way in any shape or form by which to judge an institution's quality that Ave Maria is not the rock-bottom-worst. Now, either open your feeble eyes, or quit trolling.

[sundance95]

Valid critiques against the school:
1.the employment prospects are god-awful
2.the employment prospects will not improve because
a) it is competing with 11 other law schools in the state
b) Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's
3. the religious stigma scares away employers
4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree
5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier
6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects
7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff

In sum: there is absolutely no way in any shape or form by which to judge an institution's quality that Ave Maria is not the rock-bottom-worst. Now, either open your feeble eyes, or quit trolling.

/thread

[OrdinarilySkilled]

I feel like credibility is inversly related to the number of S's a person uses to refer to the LSAT. Also don't provoke people to give you reasons why not to go there if you actually want to. Just apply and go about your day.

Absolutely absurd. If someone has a valid critique of the school they should just say so. Calling the school an abomination without offering the slightest bit of evidence for those statements is ridiculous. What I am clearly asking for is content in your arguments not childish meandering.

If you're not going to ask questions or give comments about the university then why are you wasting your time and everyone else's?

Sorry man just tryin to save you worthless keystrokes. Good luck with your cycle.

edit: the above posts are why I suggested not provoking people. Voluntary discouragement hooray.

[redsoxfan77]

How is 'the school is shit, and provides no credible path to employment,' NOT a valid critique?

Saying the school is "shit" without backing it up isn't a valid way to critique. No "credible path" to employment are a better critique. At least you didn't have to resort to vulgarity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/ave-mari ... f-law.html

82% job employment after 9 months for the class of 2008 isn't great, nor is it terrible. Given that is the year 2008 is when everything in the economy tanked. The salary medians compared to other better known law schools is lower. $60,000 for the private sector and $50,000+ for employees in the public sector are the median averages. This is lower than T1-T2 schools.

Now that is the way to critique!

[St.Remy]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/ave-mari ... f-law.html

82% job employment after 9 months for the class of 2008 isn't great, nor is it terrible. Given that is the year 2008 is when everything in the economy tanked. The salary medians compared to other better known law schools is lower. $60,000 for the private sector and $50,000+ for employees in the public sector are the median averages. This is lower than T1-T2 schools.

Now that is the way to critique!

82% employment counts any type of employment, even Wal-Mart. If you're $100,000 in debt you sure as hell better have a job in 9 months to make interest payments. Also, the $60,000 average salary is calculated with less than a third of students reporting, which because of response bias probably means that the median salary is much lower.

DelBarco already spelled out the plethora of reasons why Ave Maria is a horrible school, so either respond to his post or stop wasting everyone's time OP.

[Grizz]

redsox, just go to Ave. You'll be fine. Don't listen to the naysayers.

[redsoxfan77]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

Valid critiques against the school:
1.the employment prospects are god-awful
2.the employment prospects will not improve because
a) it is competing with 11 other law schools in the state
b) Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's
3. the religious stigma scares away employers
4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree
5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier
6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects
7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff

In sum: there is absolutely no way in any shape or form by which to judge an institution's quality that Ave Maria is not the rock-bottom-worst. Now, either open your feeble eyes, or quit trolling.

Un/Valid critiques are

1. Job prospects being God-awful. Fairly valid. 82% job placement after 9 months could be better as could salary. Is it "God-awful" I would say not. Then again I apparently notice a fairy tale like mentality of what happens after law school. That this great $150,000 a year job is brought to you by a knight on a white horse. To paraphrase another on the threads here. It's the job market during a depression not the special olympics.

2. A. Job prospects will not improve because there are 11 other Law Schools in the state. Fairly valid statement. Then again show me a valid market that is not overly saturated with Law Schools. Arizona maybe? The thing about Ave Maria was that it fills a gap even though there are 11 other schools in Florida. Namely a conservative Catholic institution in Florida that grants law degrees. St. Thomas in the Miami area really is not striking a chord with this crowd. Given the influx of immigrants to the states (Florida especially) that are traditional Catholics there was market enough for Ave to move there and set up shop. The number of law schools in the state can only heavily impact job prospects from a particular college if they service the same crowd. Put simply, no one else in Florida or much of the country, caters to who Ave Maria caters to. Finally many Ave Maria graduates have always moved across the country to various other job markets.

B. Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's - Valid. Finally, this is your best critique so far.

3. the religious stigma scares away employers - This too is a valid critique. The US has always been anti-Catholic. Anti-religious is still kind of new, but it's here. Then again, to the student who would attend Ave Maria being subject to mindless bigotry is nothing new.

4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree- A partially valid critique. I actually used that argument to explain why initially jobs would be harder to find after Ave. What is not valid is basing the future alumni network based on 3 years worth of history. That is actually quite nonsensical.

5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier - Not particularly valid. Recycled arguments that had been valid, but ignores the actual mobility of the Ave student.

6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects - A valid critique. Standards could be raised. Once Ave's place is solidified over the next few years admission requirements would surely go up as well. This still does underscore that law school is ultimately the education of the individual. Regardless of how peers perform.

7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff - Not a valid response. This statement is not backed up in any way and cannot be, given your ignorance of many of the programs that have member ship in the ABA. What would have been a valid response is that there is not a well recognized staff.

It is clear from reading your response that you have little or no actual relevant knowledge of the program and have just based your assumptions on unfit rumors. The only actual valid critiques that you had made were ones I had previously mentioned myself in this very same thread. At least you seem to be trying to contribute to the conversation. It's just that your ignorance is keeping you from adding anything worthwhile.

[Grizz]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

Valid critiques against the school:
1.the employment prospects are god-awful
2.the employment prospects will not improve because
a) it is competing with 11 other law schools in the state
b) Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's
3. the religious stigma scares away employers
4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree
5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier
6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects
7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff

In sum: there is absolutely no way in any shape or form by which to judge an institution's quality that Ave Maria is not the rock-bottom-worst. Now, either open your feeble eyes, or quit trolling.

Un/Valid critiques are

1. Job prospects being God-awful. Fairly valid. 82% job placement after 9 months could be better as could salary. Is it "God-awful" I would say not. Then again I apparently notice a fairy tale like mentality of what happens after law school. That this great $150,000 a year job is brought to you by a knight on a white horse. To paraphrase another on the threads here. It's the job market during a depression not the special olympics.

2. A. Job prospects will not improve because there are 11 other Law Schools in the state. Fairly valid statement. Then again show me a valid market that is not overly saturated with Law Schools. Arizona maybe? The thing about Ave Maria was that it fills a gap even though there are 11 other schools in Florida. Namely a conservative Catholic institution in Florida that grants law degrees. St. Thomas in the Miami area really is not striking a chord with this crowd. Given the influx of immigrants to the states (Florida especially) that are traditional Catholics there was market enough for Ave to move there and set up shop. The number of law schools in the state can only heavily impact job prospects from a particular college if they service the same crowd. Put simply, no one else in Florida or much of the country, caters to who Ave Maria caters to. Finally many Ave Maria graduates have always moved across the country to various other job markets.

B. Florida has only very secondary legal markets, most of the jobs of which are sucked up by out of state T-14ers and in state LR's - Valid. Finally, this is your best critique so far.

3. the religious stigma scares away employers - This too is a valid critique. The US has always been anti-Catholic. Anti-religious is still kind of new, but it's here. Then again, to the student who would attend Ave Maria being subject to mindless bigotry is nothing new.

4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree- A partially valid critique. I actually used that argument to explain why initially jobs would be harder to find after Ave. What is not valid is basing the future alumni network based on 3 years worth of history. That is actually quite nonsensical.

5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier - Not particularly valid. Recycled arguments that had been valid, but ignores the actual mobility of the Ave student.

6. the student quality is as bad as the job prospects - A valid critique. Standards could be raised. Once Ave's place is solidified over the next few years admission requirements would surely go up as well. This still does underscore that law school is ultimately the education of the individual. Regardless of how peers perform.

7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff - Not a valid response. This statement is not backed up in any way and cannot be, given your ignorance of many of the programs that have member ship in the ABA. What would have been a valid response is that there is not a well recognized staff.

It is clear from reading your response that you have little or no actual relevant knowledge of the program and have just based your assumptions on unfit rumors. The only actual valid critiques that you had made were ones I had previously mentioned myself in this very same thread. At least you seem to be trying to contribute to the conversation. It's just that your ignorance is keeping you from adding anything worthwhile.

[KamaalTheAbstract]

How is 'the school is shit, and provides no credible path to employment,' NOT a valid critique?

Saying the school is "shit" without backing it up isn't a valid way to critique. No "credible path" to employment are a better critique. At least you didn't have to resort to vulgarity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/ave-mari ... f-law.html

82% job employment after 9 months for the class of 2008 isn't great, nor is it terrible. Given that is the year 2008 is when everything in the economy tanked. The salary medians compared to other better known law schools is lower. $60,000 for the private sector and $50,000+ for employees in the public sector are the median averages. This is lower than T1-T2 schools.

Now that is the way to critique!

A sure way to know that someone has no idea what they're talking about is when they start quoting the self reported statistics.

[johnnyutah]

Seriously, if you graduate in the US with a JD and cannot get a job making 30k+ you're just lazy.

Hahah, I thought you might be serious for a minute until I read this.

[dresden doll]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

Some of the biggest idiots I've known work for campus administrations.

But don't misunderstand me - I'd never want to detract from your interest in this school. I think you and Ave Maria will go together like rubber and glue.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Un/Valid critiques are

1. Job prospects being God-awful. Fairly valid. 82% job placement after 9 months could be better as could salary. Is it "God-awful" I would say not. Then again I apparently notice a fairy tale like mentality of what happens after law school. That this great $150,000 a year job is brought to you by a knight on a white horse. To paraphrase another on the threads here. It's the job market during a depression not the special olympics.

4. There is no alumni network, and based on the first 3 reasons, there never will be one to any notable degree- A partially valid critique. I actually used that argument to explain why initially jobs would be harder to find after Ave. What is not valid is basing the future alumni network based on 3 years worth of history. That is actually quite nonsensical.

5. a school with no mobility in a state where networking is the key to getting a job, critique 4 gets a whole lot scarier - Not particularly valid. Recycled arguments that had been valid, but ignores the actual mobility of the Ave student.

7. it is one of the few law schools in the nation without top-quality staff - Not a valid response. This statement is not backed up in any way and cannot be, given your ignorance of many of the programs that have member ship in the ABA. What would have been a valid response is that there is not a well recognized staff.

It is clear from reading your response that you have little or no actual relevant knowledge of the program and have just based your assumptions on unfit rumors. The only actual valid critiques that you had made were ones I had previously mentioned myself in this very same thread. At least you seem to be trying to contribute to the conversation. It's just that your ignorance is keeping you from adding anything worthwhile.

I don't feel like rebutting all these, so i'm just going to post some more of my ignorance for you

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... maria.html

here's a good article, if you don't actually feel like reading, can take note that Ave Maria's peer assessment scores were dead-last in the nation last year
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/20 ... d-ave.html

and perhaps a brief history of the school:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=6541640

[JusticeHarlan]

82% job employment after 9 months for the class of 2008 isn't great, nor is it terrible.

82% had jobs after 9 months, but (per LST (LinkRemoved)) only 63.2% of those jobs were regarded as "bar admissions required or anticipated." I think that statistic means that only 63% of those 82% who had jobs at all (for a result of 52%) were employed as lawyers in a meaningful sense, meaning about half the graduating class were not.

$60,000 for the private sector and $50,000+ for employees in the public sector are the median averages.

Now let's look at the $60k figure. That number is based on the middle student out of the 29% who reported salary information; $60k is what the top 14.5% privately employed graduate made (i.e., the top half of those 29%), not the 50th (and, again this is of those who had a job at all). The 25th percentile data point was making $45k, which means (again factoring in that 29% response rate) the graduate at the top 22% of starting private salaries was making $45k. So 78% of the students (of those who had private sector jobs at all) were making $45k or less.

Class of 2008 Bottom line:

50% did not have a legal job.

Of those that had private sector jobs, less than 25% were making 45k.

[redsoxfan77]

You're an incoming student? You didn't think to ask this question months ago, when you first considered attending this abomination of an LS?

Also, someone should check the IP address for red's lulzy screeds. I fear he may be posting from Ave Maria's administrative offices.

Sorry guys, I'm still looking at law schools going to take the Dec LSATs. Ave Maria is still one of the schools I'm looking at, but not the only one. As it stands now only one person has even made a potentially valid critique against the school. The rest seem to be chanting that Ave is an abomination. Not really saying how or why that is. Just that it is. And that it sucks. Though, I do appreciate the maturity for not resulting to personal attacks for my interest in the school.

Guess I feel kinda honored you think I work for the university!

Some of the biggest idiots I've known work for campus administrations.

But don't misunderstand me - I'd never want to detract from your interest in this school. I think you and Ave Maria will go together like rubber and glue.

And one of the biggest idiots I ever met dressed up their cat...but it was nice talking to you!

[redsoxfan77]

How is 'the school is shit, and provides no credible path to employment,' NOT a valid critique?

Saying the school is "shit" without backing it up isn't a valid way to critique. No "credible path" to employment are a better critique. At least you didn't have to resort to vulgarity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/ave-mari ... f-law.html

82% job employment after 9 months for the class of 2008 isn't great, nor is it terrible. Given that is the year 2008 is when everything in the economy tanked. The salary medians compared to other better known law schools is lower. $60,000 for the private sector and $50,000+ for employees in the public sector are the median averages. This is lower than T1-T2 schools.

Now that is the way to critique!

A sure way to know that someone has no idea what they're talking about is when they start quoting the self reported statistics.

The intent was to show how to make a critique versus just using unsubstantiated gossip. It was not to say whether it was valid was strong or not. It was a learning exercise.

Now I'll read the other links posted and see what we find there.

[cubswin]

Domino's Lawl School.

[redsoxfan77]

I don't feel like rebutting all these, so i'm just going to post some more of my ignorance for you

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... maria.html

here's a good article, if you don't actually feel like reading, can take note that Ave Maria's peer assessment scores were dead-last in the nation last year
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/20 ... d-ave.html

and perhaps a brief history of the school:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=6541640

Thanks delBarco,

These links are much better.

The first link makes you feel bad for a faculty member who is on the losing end of a pissing contest with Monaghan. He pretty much becomes the Bill Kirk of the university, which if true, is shameful.

The top two both referenced what the wikipedia article said about financial difficulties. Which I'm surprised no one has mentioned how that will affect the distribution of financial aid. The commentary from the students and others in the beliefnet.com section was very useful because unlike all commentary so far on this thread it actually came from enrolled students.

The final question from the links becomes this: is Monaghan going to drive Ave Maria into the ground? He seems to gamble a bit and if you hate the guy he's a dictator fascist. If you like him he is a saint. He's been both good and bad for the corporations that he's worked for. I would say this: Dominoes is still around and the Detroit Tigers are still around; I think because of or in spite of Monaghan, Ave Maria Law is going to stay around.

It's nice to finally have some more legitimate criticism.

[Grizz]

Ave Maria will stay around as long as there are sheep who will ignore employment prospects and as long as the government gives out guaranteed loans to anyone with a pulse.

[redsoxfan77]

Bottom line there Rad:

Would you use this as a safety school if you were a conservative Catholic?