Chicago 2L Takings ?s

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miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:00 am

freeflowfox wrote:So can anyone post the "who worked there" list? Or PM if possible? It would probably satisfy a whole lot of curiosity.

Also I was under the impression that over 480 firms came to UChicago in previous years, and this year, if around 340 came, saw a 25% decline? Are people worried?


480 offices maybe, not firms. And, yes, a 25% decline from boomtime feels right.

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:04 am

freeflowfox wrote:So can anyone post the "who worked there" list? Or PM if possible? It would probably satisfy a whole lot of curiosity.

Also I was under the impression that over 480 firms came to UChicago in previous years, and this year, if around 340 came, saw a 25% decline? Are people worried?


This list is available to current students with access to our symplicity and contains names. So I think it would be a serious mistake for anyone to post it publicly or e-mail it to internet randoms who can't access our symplicity.

I'm happy to do a rough breakdown of percentages for you, though.

The 110/340 number is about in line with last year (maybe a little higher). So obviously it's off from the boom years. You all knew that already. So I'd advise you to get your heads out of 2006 and into the new economy.

"Worried?" It depends on the person, I suppose.

freeflowfox
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby freeflowfox » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:08 am

haha... thanks a lot for clarifying. Yeah i guess i was just fishing for personal takes or latent fear, but I've failed and feel reassured that people are realistic about options and the state of the market.

One more question, will they put out another list like they did last year with all the firm names and next to them a number of people from UChicago that went there that year? Last year's list counted up to around 190 people, almost the entire class going to major firms, it was pretty damn reassuring.

iwantawhiteiphone4
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby iwantawhiteiphone4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:28 am

Is the list on symplicity or chalk? I can't seem to find it...

Edit: Nevermind - I just realized I first needed to sign up for a coached interview session in symplicity.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:29 pm

good or bad news?

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bizen boat
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby bizen boat » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:40 pm

I feel like somewhat of an impostor posting in this thread, but as a transfer I did get the data. I had to sort through it to eliminate the 1L's summer jobs (and the jobs 2L's took their 1L year), but after doing that it seemed that the numbers are at least comparable to what was in the Columbia and NYU threads. I didn't look up every law firm on the list to make sure it was a V100 or NLJ 250 or whatever newfangled definition of biglaw you want to use, but it seems that the percentage of students in big firm SA's is 60-70%.

I'm halfway expecting to be completely wrong on my estimation, as I only took about 5 minutes to go through it. So if anyone else has a better analysis, let it rip.

edit: Also, if anyone thinks I shouldn't be talking about "confidential" information (even though I tried to be pretty general), let me know as well. I just got accepted and don't want to be on anyone's bad side at UofC!

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dresden doll
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:59 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
miamiman wrote:
doyleoil wrote:looking like about 110 firms, 340 offices (a couple other employers that are not firms...but not many)

that's just a quick eyeballing of the list - others might be able to correct my arithmetic a little bit

i think all of the v20 are represented and most of the v50


is this "good" news? I haven't been monitoring how other schools stack up


+1 Im really watching this UChicago situation.. considering how stingy they are with aid, I really would like to see ~70%+ OCI placement to keep them seriously on list.


I've kept up with that, although I suspect doyle's correct in regarding such monitoring as fairly useless.

CLS and NYU placed around 67 percent of class through OCI last year. These numbers, as I've been told, are entirely reliable: they were checked and rechecked several times over.

Ironically enough, I can't comment on my own school's figures because I can't log into Symplicity (a common problem for me, for whatever reason). Thanks for the info, doyle.
Last edited by dresden doll on Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iwantawhiteiphone4
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby iwantawhiteiphone4 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:01 pm

I calculated about 75% are working at law firms - obv not all are biglaw firms

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:33 pm

Here's the rundown I did. I tried to do it fast, so there may be a couple miscounts, but this should be close to accurate. I got less than iphone4 did, but I made sure not to double-count people who were splitting between two firms, so that's probably why there's a difference:

Law-firm placements: 137 (69%)*

Vault breakdown:

V5 - 6 (3%)
V10 - 19 (10%)
V20 - 48 (24%)
V50 - 95 (48%)
V100 - 107 (54%)

Non-Vault firm placements - 30 (15%)

*Percentages are based on the assumption of a class size of 200 (though the class size is probably a tad bigger than that because of transfers).

V5 and V10 placements probably got slammed because firms have become more regional in their recruiting. So we put a ton of people at Kirkland/Sidley/Mayer, but no one at, e.g., Cravath or Simpson Thacher.

Our biggest representation this summer is at Gibson Dunn (10).

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dresden doll
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:36 pm

Doyle's done the good deed for today. Thanks, buddy.

I was kind of hoping that our figure was slightly over 70 percent, to be perfectly honest. Apparently the small class size doesn't provide as much of an edge as one might hope for.

As for the transfer factor, Chi takes 15 transfers per year. So, the class size should fall into the 205-210 range.

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:49 pm

doyleoil wrote:Here's the rundown I did. I tried to do it fast, so there may be a couple miscounts, but this should be close to accurate. I got less than iphone4 did, but I made sure not to double-count people who were splitting between two firms, so that's probably why there's a difference:

Law-firm placements: 137 (69%)*

Vault breakdown:

V5 - 6 (3%)
V10 - 19 (10%)
V20 - 48 (24%)
V50 - 95 (48%)
V100 - 107 (54%)

Non-Vault firm placements - 30 (15%)

*Percentages are based on the assumption of a class size of 200 (though the class size is probably a tad bigger than that because of transfers).

V5 and V10 placements probably got slammed because firms have become more regional in their recruiting. So we put a ton of people at Kirkland/Sidley/Mayer, but no one at, e.g., Cravath or Simpson Thacher.

Our biggest representation this summer is at Gibson Dunn (10).


i'd kick a baby for placement like that.

rundoxierun
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:55 pm

dresden doll wrote:Doyle's done the good deed for today. Thanks, buddy.

I was kind of hoping that our figure was slightly over 70 percent, to be perfectly honest. Apparently the small class size doesn't provide as much of an edge as one might hope for.

As for the transfer factor, Chi takes 15 transfers per year. So, the class size should fall into the 205-210 range.


Yea, I had been told ~75% by a friend but thats still pretty good.. anyone know if Harvard and/or Stanford release this kind of data??

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:57 pm

Doyle delivers yet again.

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dresden doll
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:31 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Doyle's done the good deed for today. Thanks, buddy.

I was kind of hoping that our figure was slightly over 70 percent, to be perfectly honest. Apparently the small class size doesn't provide as much of an edge as one might hope for.

As for the transfer factor, Chi takes 15 transfers per year. So, the class size should fall into the 205-210 range.


Yea, I had been told ~75% by a friend but thats still pretty good.. anyone know if Harvard and/or Stanford release this kind of data??


They almost certainly do. I'm not sure non-HLS kids are privvy to them, however.

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Dany
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby Dany » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:15 pm

miamiman wrote:Doyle delivers yet again.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:06 am

doyleoil wrote:Non-Vault firm placements - 30 (15%)


Doyle, since it was such a large cut of the 2L class, might you be able to comment upon what types of firms generally made up the "non-vault" fraction? Are we generally looking at non-vault NLJ 250/AMLAW 200 firms or ... non-vault lastname, lastname, and lastname, attorneys at law?

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:29 am

Butler Snow
Chapman & Cutler
Chuhak & Tecson
Corboy & Demetrio
Curtis Mallet
David Brown
Eimer Stahl
Foley Hoag
Gilbert
Global IP Law Group
Gordon & Rees
Grippo & Elden
Haynes & Boone
Kim & Chang
Liner Grode
McAndrews, Held, and Malloy
Pircher Nichols
Podhurst Orseck
Polsinelli Shughart
Sherin & Lodgen
Sherman & Howard
Snell & Wilmer
Stone Pigman
Stradling Yocca
Susman Godfrey
Thompson & Knight
Valorem Law Group
Winthrop & Weinstine
Yetter Warden
Yulchon
------------------------------------------

That's the list. There are one or two (no more than two) summers at all these firms. Susman is obviously one of the best lit firms in the country. A couple of these are extremely well-respected and pay market in Chicago (Eimer Stahl, Grippo). Haynes & Boone and Thompson & Knight pay market, and I'm sure several others on the list do as well. A lot of these are places I've never heard of, but that doesn't mean anything because I don't know a lot of the secondary markets at all. I didn't run any percentage because I don't know what is and what isn't in the NLJ 250.

phnx
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby phnx » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:42 am

doyleoil wrote:V5 and V10 placements probably got slammed because firms have become more regional in their recruiting. So we put a ton of people at Kirkland/Sidley/Mayer, but no one at, e.g., Cravath or Simpson Thacher.


Any evidence for firms becoming more regional in their recruiting besides the numbers in the Who Worked Where list?

Cravath, for instance, also dramatically shrunk its SA class size down to 27. They could have offered just as many spots percentage-wise to UChi kids. It would then be entirely possible for the very small number of UChi kids receiving offers all to turn down Cravath for offers from other places.

We also put only one person at Simpson Thacher last year.

The large numbers at Kirkland and Sidley might be more difficult to explain, but then I wonder how CLS and NYU fared relative to previous years at those firms. If they placed fewer people there, was that because of the bad economy shrinking the class size as a whole? The NYC office had a much greater reduction in SA class size (to 13 from 48) than the Chicago office (to 32 from 52). Our placement could be preserved simply because the firms have become more selective in terms of which schools they recruit from (based on, loosely, rankings), not which region we are from.

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Hamilton
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby Hamilton » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:07 am

Can I go back to the transfer student question a few pages back? Do transfers fold into the continuing crowd pretty quickly? How are they viewed by professors/students?

Thanks.

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:29 pm

phnx wrote:
doyleoil wrote:V5 and V10 placements probably got slammed because firms have become more regional in their recruiting. So we put a ton of people at Kirkland/Sidley/Mayer, but no one at, e.g., Cravath or Simpson Thacher.


Any evidence for firms becoming more regional in their recruiting besides the numbers in the Who Worked Where list?

Cravath, for instance, also dramatically shrunk its SA class size down to 27. They could have offered just as many spots percentage-wise to UChi kids. It would then be entirely possible for the very small number of UChi kids receiving offers all to turn down Cravath for offers from other places.

We also put only one person at Simpson Thacher last year.

The large numbers at Kirkland and Sidley might be more difficult to explain, but then I wonder how CLS and NYU fared relative to previous years at those firms. If they placed fewer people there, was that because of the bad economy shrinking the class size as a whole? The NYC office had a much greater reduction in SA class size (to 13 from 48) than the Chicago office (to 32 from 52). Our placement could be preserved simply because the firms have become more selective in terms of which schools they recruit from (based on, loosely, rankings), not which region we are from.


Yeah I probably should have clarified, and I think we're actually on the same page here. What I meant was, because classes are so much smaller, it seems like firms are more likely to make it a priority to keep getting a certain number of students from the local powerhouse but to be more selective elsewhere, where before they might have dipped deeper into the class. I'm sure Cravath would still be happy to get, e.g., the top 10% at U of C (whereas before they might have dipped to top quarter or something). But if none of the top 10% want Cravath, then they're probably not too concerned if they just don't grab any U of C'ers this year.

That's all I meant by "more regional." It's not that the top of the class at U of C can't get Cravath (or Simpson) if they want it. And it's not like those firms stopped coming to OCI (they didn't). We do have 6 people at Debevoise this summer, so it's not like we're getting shut out of NYC or anything.

Hamilton wrote:Can I go back to the transfer student question a few pages back? Do transfers fold into the continuing crowd pretty quickly? How are they viewed by professors/students?

Thanks.


I'm going to be very honest with you on a couple fronts. First, I don't really know any of the transfers in other classes, because I mostly just know my own class. I imagine the transition is made a little easier by the fact that most of your classes will have a mix of 2L's and 3L's. So it's not like you'll stick out like a sore thumb. I personally won't be standoffish, and I can't see people in my class being that way either. But you obviously know that people here already have their established "groups," in some sense. So I think getting involved in student org's, etc. is your best bet for getting to know people and mixing in a little.

Second, and this is far more touchy, the economy makes the transfer phenomenon a little awkward, and you should just be ready to face that head on. No reason for you to apologize for your situation, but neither should you think you're going to come in here and "take over". I think I read in a recent e-mail from our (outgoing) dean of students that Chicago is bringing in 25 people this year. Frankly, that number surprises me, especially when there are a good number of people in our class who are going to have trouble finding jobs. So you should just be sensitive to the fact that the situation "out there" (as much as it sucks) creates a little bit of anxiety in here. Just try to keep a sense of humor (and humility) about it and "lay low" when it comes to certain things. If you display any kind of "entitlement" at all, it will not be well-received.

That said, you're coming to a fantastic place with amazing professors. Appreciate and enjoy the opportunities you have now. You're very lucky.

ETA: One more thing about your relationship with professors. You're a year behind, so you're going to have to work hard to impress and get to know professors (NOT through annoying gunnerism, but through excellent performance on exams, on papers, and in class). If you do that, though, I can't see them being anything but highly receptive. One thing Chicago prides itself on is a fierce commitment to the best thinking without regard for "fame" or "prestige." You should read this description by Martha Nussbaum (on her reasons for turning down offers from Harvard and Brown):

But equally important for me is the culture of the University of Chicago Law School, which has an intellectual intensity and fertility that is unique. People talk voraciously across lines of specialization, with a sense of everyone's equality. There are no stars; the entry-level assistant professor is treated with the same respect as the tenured professor. The ideas are what matter, not fame or glamor. This has been so for a long time, but I give particular credit to Saul Levmore, the current Dean, for his extremely fine leadership, both intellectually and in building a community in which this type of equal respect flourishes.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... n-her.html

It is absolutely true, and it is one of the things I appreciate most about this place. "Meritocracy" in the best sense pretty much sums it up.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:25 pm

The more I go over that list, the stronger my conviction grows that Chicago did not place particularly well -- for reasons of self-selection, stiffer GPA standards, or what have you-- within the regional/Chicago firms.

Not one student at Vedder Price, Schiff Hardin, Goldberg Kohn, Neal Gerber Eisenberg, or Barrack Ferrazano? Are all of the students who want Chicago suddenly placing into Kirkland, Mayer, et. al. or did a sizable number of students get shut out of the non-Vault, NLJ 250ish Chicago firms? Or did these firms simply experience a disproportionate amount of the client pullback and correspondingly reduced their class sizes dramatically?

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:36 pm

Chill out. Seriously. Those places don't take on many summers at all. And it's rare for us to have more than one or two go to any of them even in good years.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:37 pm

doyleoil wrote:Chill out. Seriously. Those places don't take on many summers at all. And it's rare for us to have more than one or two go to any of them even in good years.



Eh, *sigh*, this is my normal state. :( I suppose that makes me "fit" for law.

EDIT: I should say the only reason I'm able to freak out at all is because of your truly blessed work above.

so... THANK YOU again for that.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby miamiman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Also, as an aside, duly impressed by the placement at Podhurst. That is the Miami, appellate shop.

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doyleoil
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Re: Chicago 2L Takings ?s

Postby doyleoil » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:41 pm

miamiman wrote:
doyleoil wrote:Chill out. Seriously. Those places don't take on many summers at all. And it's rare for us to have more than one or two go to any of them even in good years.



Eh, *sigh*, this is my normal state. :( I suppose that makes me "fit" for law.

EDIT: I should say the only reason I'm able to freak out at all is because of your truly blessed work above.

so... THANK YOU again for that.


just relax and focus on getting good grades when you get here - analyzing hiring trends is for people in the decision-making phase - you're in the "do well at the school you decided on" phase




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