Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

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mjs92983
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby mjs92983 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:23 pm

Danteshek wrote:The legal community's opinion of a school will not vary based on what the schools says in marketing materials. Telling the legal community that it is wrong about a particular school is just as likely to cement existing views of a school. The real change will come when a critical mass of more competent attorneys, and a few really outstanding attorneys, hit the market and start making waves. For instance, I am headed to DC this summer to work for the SEC. If I do a good job, the attorneys at the SEC will have a more favorable impression of my school and be more inclined to hire from Southwestern. In the fall I am working for a federal judge in large part because Southwestern alums paved the way for me with that particular judge. Also, just because Southwestern is 99 years old, that does not mean that the next 100 years can't be better than the first. We had a horrible dean from about 30 years ago to 5 years ago. Institutions can bloom late.



I have no idea about Southwestern. Law schools can have effect by interacting with law firms, government offices, and judges though, and not just through the example of their students.

Besides, I just spent the weekend down at Chapman checking it out and they are concerned with the rankings but I wouldn't say obsessed with it. I would say more of a culture of progress and change to up the reputation of the school. I think that the idea of "we don't care about rankings, we just want to be a great school" is erroneous. Law schools give out professional degrees. It's not like a liberal arts college or getting a masters in philosophy, it's a degree that is supposed to train someone to perform a job. I don't know people who can afford the time and money to make it a purely academic pursuit.

Danteshek
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:56 pm

The lower ranked schools are basically the only schools that actually understand the importance of practical training. The higher you go, the more "academic" it gets.

mjs92983
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby mjs92983 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:44 pm

Danteshek wrote:The lower ranked schools are basically the only schools that actually understand the importance of practical training. The higher you go, the more "academic" it gets.



I think after you reflect on that statement a bit you'll understand how foolish it is.

Danteshek
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:48 pm

mjs92983 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:The lower ranked schools are basically the only schools that actually understand the importance of practical training. The higher you go, the more "academic" it gets.



I think after you reflect on that statement a bit you'll understand how foolish it is.


Almost as foolish as law school professors masquerading as real academics.

Allagion
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Allagion » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:11 am

I don't see how UCI grads will take jobs from Chapman grads. UCI is focused on environmental, international, and public interest with Chemerinsky at the helm. Chapman appears to produce more general/business practitioners and the tax program gives those students an edge. If UCI maintains its priorities, then I don't think most Chapman grads will have much to worry about for some time. Plus, a little healthy competition can do some good.

dcm81
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby dcm81 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:04 pm

Good point. I dont think as many UCI grads will gravitate towards tax law. But if it comes to Big Firm jobs, UCI will have an edge unless that student is a bad interviewer....

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darknightbegins
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby darknightbegins » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:58 pm

Danteshek wrote:
mjs92983 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:The lower ranked schools are basically the only schools that actually understand the importance of practical training. The higher you go, the more "academic" it gets.



I think after you reflect on that statement a bit you'll understand how foolish it is.


Almost as foolish as law school professors masquerading as real academics.


Daaammnnn. Takin it to a new level.

dcm81
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby dcm81 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:15 pm

If I were to bet on it, I say they fall short, but will they will be near the top of tier 3 schools, which will put them in a very good position next year. Here is why:

Factors in Chapman's favor:

1) Their median LSAT (87th) and GPA (79th) rank them between 85-86th overall in those categories, in addition to their acceptance rate. This accounts for 25% of the USNEWS score. Decent tier 2 numbers.

2) Their bar exam results will up their ranking slightly as 81% passed the bar on the first try in July 2009. Better than half of the CA schools and most other schools in their states when you consider the difficulty of the CA bar exam. This only accounts for .02 of the score, but it will help. Upper tier 2 numbers.

3) Faculty resources are upper tier 2 or lower tier one numbers for Chapman. Their faculty ratio is top 5 in the country (amounts to 3% of score), and their library expentitures are pretty good along with student aid. They likely post a high tier 2 numbers, perhaps tier 1 numbers overall in this category. This is a big deal because this category accounts for 15% of the score.

What drags Chapman down

Reputation scores are what really hurt Chapman’s overall ranking. Last year, they placed 152nd of all ABA schools in overall reputation when you average both the peer assessment and judges score (1.98) http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... -news.html

These numbers place Chapman’s reputation in the 4th tier of law schools. They should see a slight bump this year. I would expect their average this year to be around 2.10 because their peer assessment scores should be 2.0. USNEWS averages peer assessment scores over 2 years. In 2009, Chapman received a 1.8, and in 2010 a 1.9. So if all things are equal this year and they don’t lose or gain, expect them to have a 2.0 reputation ranking in peer assessment and a 2.1/2.2 judges score. This marginal increase will only allow them to jump a few spots. Any improvement is good, but it may not be enough for them to get into the 2nd tier.


2) Their placement rate is unknown for 2009 grads but probably won't fluctuate too much from 2008, which was a pretty bad year for most laws schools. 2009 figures to be pretty bleak across the board, so Chapman will probably have poorer numbers, but most law schools will fare the same so this won't be much of a drag on their overall ranking. This accounts for 20% of the score.

Conclusion
Chapman will edge closer to the top of the third tier, but will not make tier 2 this year unless there has been a higher than .1 jump in peer assessment. Also, it is unclear how the job market will affect Chapman and other schools. The rest of Chapman’s numbers are clearly tier 2, their admissions, bar results, and faculty resources are that of a good tier 2 school. But they need to make a jump in reputation in order to make the jump to tier 2 this year.

Example: If Chapman ranks 140th in overall reputation, and 75th in the rest of the USNEWS, they will rank 101st. 140 * .4 = 56, and 75 * .6 = 45. 56 + 45 = 101. This would be a good jump in assessment scores (2.13 was 140th in 2010). If this happens, and everything else is equal, then Chapman will be at the tier 2/3 borderline.

I am assuming Chapman is close to 75th spot on all rankings put together besides peer assessment. But the school of law is really banking on its reputation increasing. It will probably happen, but you must also consider the big variable of how other schools reputation ratings change. Now, these ratings don’t fluctuate very much every year, but a small increase in some schools peer assessment scores that are ranked around Chapman will prove detrimental. Thus, I would consider a tremendous surprise if Chapman is ranked in tier two for the 2011 rankings. However, even if they fail to do so, they are edging closer, and it appears inevitable that they will be a tier 2 school in the next few years, if not in 2012.

dcm81
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby dcm81 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:51 pm

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to set the record straight on this. Guess we'll find out in a few weeks.... I've asked some people at Chapman about where the admin believes their ranked in the 3rd tier, and they say upper half, which looks pretty accurate considering the schools admission numbers. They probably need to jump 10-15 spots to get into the 2nd tier.

Looks like you can do this with just about any school you want if you feel like spending the time crunching the numbers.


mjs92983
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby mjs92983 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:28 pm


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cwkenneth
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby cwkenneth » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:13 pm

Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.

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JordynAsh
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby JordynAsh » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:16 pm

cwkenneth wrote:Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.


I'd say so, since before today I'd never even heard of it.

goansongo
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby goansongo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:01 pm

JordynAsh wrote:
cwkenneth wrote:Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.


I'd say so, since before today I'd never even heard of it.

hahaha

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:13 pm

cwkenneth wrote:Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.



Thats a good thing they have a goal, big advantage. A lot of schools have the goal of doing worse, or don't care. So the unique fact that chapman wants to rise in the rankings should serve them well!!

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chango
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby chango » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:22 pm

cwkenneth wrote:Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.


GO Chapman!!!

--ImageRemoved--

gfunk3
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby gfunk3 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:03 pm

Chapman moves from T4 to T2 in the 15 years since it opened. You will love this school and this town.

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ruleser
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby ruleser » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:38 pm

gfunk3 wrote:Chapman moves from T4 to T2 in the 15 years since it opened. You will love this school and this town.

Been to the campus - it is an amazing town, like stepping back into a 50's town ala Back to the Future, and a very pretty campus.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:43 pm

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Last edited by Kilpatrick on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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1ferret!
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby 1ferret! » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:44 am

cwkenneth wrote:Chapman breaks into top 100 at #93 (tied with Santa Clara and beating out USF)

This will not be a one time occurrence. They will only continue to rise through the rankings. Their near term goal is to be ranked next to Pepperdine, Loyola LA, and USD. I have talked to too many of Chapman's legal faculty and board members to believe this goal is not only attainable but realistic in the next three to five years.

Chapman Law is probably one of the best kept secrets.



1.9/2.3 peer review ratings. Those numbers don't change quickly, and are a huge chunk of the current USNews evaluation. Chapman can increase its stats in other ways, but the peer review will keep them from rising as quickly as you might like.
The ten point jump you are proposing as realistic in the short run (Chapman is currently at 43 and would need to go to 53 to be up with Pepperdine and Loyola) while not unheard of is less than realistic. If Pepperdine and Loyola jumped ten points they would both be in the T30.
Glad to see Chapman where its at, but that degree of change would be startling.

dcm81
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby dcm81 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:04 am

If this is true, it means that Chapman has really come a long way in a short period of time. They just because a tier 3 school in 2008. But they have a lonnnggg way to go to reach tier 1 status. Reaching "TT" status will help in the short run in matriculating better students. If they can improve their peer assessment scores every year, then they will move up over time. Reaching the top 50 is not out of the question, its just going to take longer than their jump from tier 3 to tier 2.... But I'm surprised they made the jump this year because I didn't think they had the numbers yet. I stand corrected, assuming the leak is legit.....

JOE!
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby JOE! » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:18 am

This is just me guessing, but I feel like getting up to 2nd tier might cause the peer review scores to raise at a quicker rate than they would staying in the 3rd tier.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:22 am

JOE! wrote:This is just me guessing, but I feel like getting up to 2nd tier might cause the peer review scores to raise at a quicker rate than they would staying in the 3rd tier.

So, what was the reaction like on campus today, Joe?

dcm81
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby dcm81 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:27 am

Very possible indeed. I think it helps with peer scores because other schools that don't know Chapman as much might research the school a lot more. And with Chapman's competition, they may feel less inclined to give them a 1 or 2 now that Chapman has surpassed a lot of their competition (McGeorge, San Francisco, and equal with Santa Clara). Getting beat might make them feel that Chapman's rise is inevitable.

Wooster33
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Re: Is it smart to trust Chapman's claim of becoming a tier 2?

Postby Wooster33 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:31 am

He didn't lay out solid legal reasoning; he manipulated a perverse constitutional interpretation and ignored known precedent to justify a clearly illegal act.


I'm pretty sure there are people who say the same about Roe v. Wade and abortion--perverse legal reasoning to justify an atrocious crime. I don't suppose supporters of Roe v. Wade should be banned from teaching law?

Now, supporting Roe is certainly more mainstream than Yoo's opinions on torture, etc (especially among the legal community). But there are certainly people who feel as strongly as you do on the issue. I guess what I am trying to say is: Grow up. The world doesn't revolve around your sense of right and wrong and laughable self righteousness. For all lip service the left gives to "nuance," they often demonstrate the same fundamentalism and simple-mindedness that they claim to abhor.




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