Why is everyone so anti T3?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:21 am

citrus2010 wrote:I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).

If you can't wait one more year to vastly increase your odds of success over the next 10-20 years, then you might want to stop and rethink how you're prioritizing your life. This is especially true in this economy, where even people at T2 and lower T1 schools are having trouble finding work. Waiting a year and going to a higher-ranked schools are both ways of helping to insulate yourself from the current economic meltdown and its effects on the legal system.

Going to law school should be a decision where you've thought about the consequences on yourself and your family for the next 20 years or more. It would be a quite unusual situation where the best long-term solution for you and your family involved rushing immediately toward whatever law school takes you.

Also, reading your original post, a low GPA will not entirely prevent you from going to great schools. I had a 3.0 GPA and I'm going to a top-ten law school. I know people on this forum who have gotten into T14 schools with below-3.0 GPAs. It takes doing well on the LSAT and a solid background; since you've got the solid background I don't see why you'd shy away from doing the one remaining thing to vastly improve your options.

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:11 am

citrus2010 wrote:Along with my TTT education I bring a business background and am entirely confident in my abilities to join the legal side of the venture capital field. A JD is a huge door, whether it's a Harvard JD or a Barry JD. I side with those who respect the person, not the school because everyone here knows there's Harvard grads that didn't earn an ounce of their "clout."

I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).


Well, that's that then. You're going to whichever school takes you. You're in a unique position; most everyone here is looking at this from the perspective of someone with little prior work experience looking for a job at a firm. Just be sure that a law degree in general is really necessary for your future plans, and will really pass the test of a cost-benefit analysis when all is said and done, given a few likely outcomes. You know your situation better than we do. A Tier 3 school will give you a legal education and bar passage, provided that you put in the work. If that's all you need - if you don't need in at a firm out of school, that is - then you should be fine. However, if you are going to run your family into debt banking on a job bought buy your law degree, don't count on getting rescued as planned.

Honestly though, I question whether or not you are truly sure about all this, given your statements and questions. You don't really seem to have a clear idea of where a legal education and a law degree is going to take you. First you talked about getting well-placed in a firm, now you're talking about using it for the legal side of business... Get all this sorted out. You have a family to take care of.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:46 am

Well said

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flyingpanda
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby flyingpanda » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:27 am

vanwinkle wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).

If you can't wait one more year to vastly increase your odds of success over the next 10-20 years, then you might want to stop and rethink how you're prioritizing your life. This is especially true in this economy, where even people at T2 and lower T1 schools are having trouble finding work. Waiting a year and going to a higher-ranked schools are both ways of helping to insulate yourself from the current economic meltdown and its effects on the legal system.

Going to law school should be a decision where you've thought about the consequences on yourself and your family for the next 20 years or more. It would be a quite unusual situation where the best long-term solution for you and your family involved rushing immediately toward whatever law school takes you.

Also, reading your original post, a low GPA will not entirely prevent you from going to great schools. I had a 3.0 GPA and I'm going to a top-ten law school. I know people on this forum who have gotten into T14 schools with below-3.0 GPAs. It takes doing well on the LSAT and a solid background; since you've got the solid background I don't see why you'd shy away from doing the one remaining thing to vastly improve your options.


You cannot or you will not? I have a hard time believing that you can't wait another year to go to law school, which itself is 3 years long.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby flyingpanda » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:35 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:Hard work? Yes. Doable? Yes.


Not too fast: There's no guarantee that you'll outperform your classmates in law school. Also, this is something that might interest you:
http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/


"My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY"

Uh oh... I'm in trouble lol.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:58 am

aznflyingpanda wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:Hard work? Yes. Doable? Yes.


Not too fast: There's no guarantee that you'll outperform your classmates in law school. Also, this is something that might interest you:
http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/


"My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY"

Uh oh... I'm in trouble lol.


Hell if you get a full ride scholarship to a top 8 school what kind of investment in money are you really making? You pay nothing for tuition, I guess you have invest in living expenses but you would be doing that without going to law school. This guy sounds like a joke.

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even2flow
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby even2flow » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:11 am

darknightbegins wrote:Hell if you get a full ride scholarship to a top 8 school what kind of investment in money are you really making? You pay nothing for tuition, I guess you have invest in living expenses but you would be doing that without going to law school. This guy sounds like a joke.


It's get into Top 8 or get full ride somewhere or have a job secured post graduation, etc.

insidethetwenty
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby insidethetwenty » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:29 pm

citrus2010 wrote:taking you in court? priceless.


All variations of this line are my absolute favorite flame/troll moments on TLS.

Troll: ______TTT/T2 is just as good as Harvard. I mean they are all JD's and licenses to print money.

TLSer: Um, no, that really doesn't reflect the reality of the legal market...empirical data...hard evidence...sincere effort to help troll...

Troll: Well me and my T3 degree are going to beat you one day in court!

TLS, collectively: LOL wut?

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:07 pm

even2flow wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:Hell if you get a full ride scholarship to a top 8 school what kind of investment in money are you really making? You pay nothing for tuition, I guess you have invest in living expenses but you would be doing that without going to law school. This guy sounds like a joke.


It's get into Top 8 or get full ride somewhere or have a job secured post graduation, etc.


Thanks for the clearing that up. But damn, unless you get into a top 8 school this guy suggests taking the full-ride? Seems a bit extreme

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:10 pm

insidethetwenty wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:taking you in court? priceless.

All variations of this line are my absolute favorite flame/troll moments on TLS.

Troll: ______TTT/T2 is just as good as Harvard. I mean they are all JD's and licenses to print money.

TLSer: Um, no, that really doesn't reflect the reality of the legal market...empirical data...hard evidence...sincere effort to help troll...

Troll: Well me and my T3 degree are going to beat you one day in court!

TLS, collectively: LOL wut?

Haha, this made me laugh.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Kiersten1985 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:17 pm

citrus2010 wrote:To those obsessed with my absence from the discussion, I apologize for working. I spend a very small portion of my time online, unlike some of you. I work a lot and spend most of my spare time with my newborn son and two year old daughter. I would shoot for Harvard if I had the time to do so, but I would have to sacrifice my family's well being. I am the sole provider and pride myself in that fact. To do better on the LSAT would require quitting my job and ignoring my family beyond that which I am willing.

It is not that it is difficult. It is that I have real responsibilities.

Along with my TTT education I bring a business background and am entirely confident in my abilities to join the legal side of the venture capital field. A JD is a huge door, whether it's a Harvard JD or a Barry JD. I side with those who respect the person, not the school because everyone here knows there's Harvard grads that didn't earn an ounce of their "clout."

I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).

THAT SAID.... I'd like to hear from those of you who know of success stories from 3rd or 4th tier schools. I've read enough of these forums to know all the crap people have to say.

P.S. from a business background, I'm well aware of the importance of a cost/benefit analysis and ROI.


I give you a lot of props for taking care of your family, especially as a single parent. I was raised in a single-parent household and I know how much work that takes.

Here's the issue: if you don't have the time to study like crazy for the LSAT, you are not going to have the to time to study enough to get ranked high enough in your class to get that great job placement coming out of a T3. You will really have to graduate at the top of your class and that takes HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of hardcore studying. I'm not saying it's no doable, but with how busy you say you are and how many responsibilities you have, it's going to be even that much harder for you.

And I'm sorry, but to say that a Harvard JD and a Barry JD are equal is just insane and naive. Yes, in a perfect world, employers would look at the person and not the school. But as we all know, we don't live in a perfect world.

Good luck.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:30 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.


Oh please. Now you're equating UF to, say, Stetson (a genuine Florida Tier 3)? And you're insulting my intelligence? Mid Tier 1 is not "about the same" as Tier 3. I am not going to argue this point with you here, because if I actually need to do that, then you probably aren't open to reason. And no, I don't care how many posts you've made.


But...what exactly at the differences in quality of education that are so substantial (assuming the same student at each school).


I've had my go arounds with Lomax recently but on this one I have to back him up. If a student from UF and a student from Stetson, each graduating at the median of their class and equal in other important factors, who do you think is getting the job?

Also if you think any outside T6 or T14 are all TTT schools then you think a school like William and Mary is equal to Cooley?



I'm not talking about job opportunities out of school, I'm talking about quality of education.

Given the same student seeking things out, working hard, et cetera, what is the difference in quality of education?

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kittenmittons
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:31 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:I'm not talking about job opportunities out of school, I'm talking about quality of education.

Given the same student seeking things out, working hard, et cetera, what is the difference in quality of education?


None, they all suck at preparing you for the practice of law.

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devilishangelrjp
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby devilishangelrjp » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:41 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:To those obsessed with my absence from the discussion, I apologize for working. I spend a very small portion of my time online, unlike some of you. I work a lot and spend most of my spare time with my newborn son and two year old daughter. I would shoot for Harvard if I had the time to do so, but I would have to sacrifice my family's well being. I am the sole provider and pride myself in that fact. To do better on the LSAT would require quitting my job and ignoring my family beyond that which I am willing.

It is not that it is difficult. It is that I have real responsibilities.

Along with my TTT education I bring a business background and am entirely confident in my abilities to join the legal side of the venture capital field. A JD is a huge door, whether it's a Harvard JD or a Barry JD. I side with those who respect the person, not the school because everyone here knows there's Harvard grads that didn't earn an ounce of their "clout."

I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).

THAT SAID.... I'd like to hear from those of you who know of success stories from 3rd or 4th tier schools. I've read enough of these forums to know all the crap people have to say.

P.S. from a business background, I'm well aware of the importance of a cost/benefit analysis and ROI.


I give you a lot of props for taking care of your family, especially as a single parent. I was raised in a single-parent household and I know how much work that takes.

Here's the issue: if you don't have the time to study like crazy for the LSAT, you are not going to have the to time to study enough to get ranked high enough in your class to get that great job placement coming out of a T3. You will really have to graduate at the top of your class and that takes HOURS and HOURS and HOURS of hardcore studying. I'm not saying it's no doable, but with how busy you say you are and how many responsibilities you have, it's going to be even that much harder for you.

And I'm sorry, but to say that a Harvard JD and a Barry JD are equal is just insane and naive. Yes, in a perfect world, employers would look at the person and not the school. But as we all know, we don't live in a perfect world.

Good luck.


+1. If OP is worried about quitting his job and ignoring his family, law school ain't for him. Law school IS a full-time job even at T3. You want a high rank, you're gonna have to hold off on a LOT of time with your newborn, probably. Maybe I sound callous and/or elitist, and I am very sorry.

OP, understand, your habits right now are most likely not going to change overnight in law school. Your attitude on this LSAT seems to be one of "Why try harder?" Couple that with your GPA, that you say is poor, and the excuses you make for that. NONE of that is going to change; in fact you don't WANT it to change apparently. And you think all of a sudden, your ambition is going to make you rival some of the people from the top schools?

I mean, I know I'm being a little harsh, and again, I apologize, but COME ON. You've gotta understand where I'm coming from.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:32 pm

Quality of instructors for one. Besides a law degree isn't like a Chemistry degree. In Chemistry it is pretty definitive whether you have the formula and in Biology it is definitive whether what you are looking at under the microscope is the ribosome or the nucleus of the cell. It isn't so clear cut with law and the quality of your instructor is very important in making the subtlety of law clear to students.

citrus2010
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby citrus2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Apparently you're all misunderstanding me. I'm extremely competent and ambitious. I excel at everything I place as a priority. I am the best at my job and that is why I could not find time for super LSAT study. I will not be working during law school which then makes it my full time job. Note that I spent 50+ hours working and managed to pull a 3.6 GPA my last two years of undergrad (all at the same time PLUS I was preparing for the LSAT and being a father all at the same time as well). Not working will give me 50 hours more each week than I put into undergrad studies.

I cannot wait (you do not know my circumstances). It is not that I do not want to wait. I have my reasons and trust you're all adult enough to respect that. (I know several will prove me wrong).

I'm looking for some encouragement. Not someone to tell me it's not worth it.

And I must say most of you are outnumbered.

There are thousands of law school students that attend a lower tier, go into debt, and risk the market ALL in hopes of improving their future. If people listened to you only the top 20 schools would have a student body. Yet for some reason (not ignorance I'm certain), law schools across the country will have every seat filled by August.

09042014
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:45 pm

citrus2010 wrote:Apparently you're all misunderstanding me. I'm extremely competent and ambitious.


If you have a TTT LSAT you probably aren't.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:49 pm

citrus2010 wrote:Apparently you're all misunderstanding me. I'm extremely competent and ambitious. I excel at everything I place as a priority. I am the best at my job and that is why I could not find time for super LSAT study.

If you can't take time for LSAT prep then you're not taking the law school application process seriously enough. It doesn't matter how much time you can devote once you're in school if you can't get into a school that will give you decent job prospects once you graduate.

This is like saying "I have all the ambition and intelligence to construct a building to live in for the next 30 years, and I'm going to go ahead and build it. The fact that I didn't have the time to design it as properly as I should have isn't going to stop me, it's still going to be a safe place to live anyway because of how much money and work I'll put into building it."

citrus2010 wrote:I cannot wait (you do not know my circumstances). It is not that I do not want to wait. I have my reasons and trust you're all adult enough to respect that. (I know several will prove me wrong).

I'm looking for some encouragement. Not someone to tell me it's not worth it.

Are you looking for encouragement, or for the truth? Because you're not likely to find both here, especially not with your hostility toward people with good advice.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:56 pm

citrus2010 wrote:Apparently you're all misunderstanding me. I'm extremely competent and ambitious. I excel at everything I place as a priority. I am the best at my job and that is why I could not find time for super LSAT study. I will not be working during law school which then makes it my full time job. Note that I spent 50+ hours working and managed to pull a 3.6 GPA my last two years of undergrad (all at the same time PLUS I was preparing for the LSAT and being a father all at the same time as well). Not working will give me 50 hours more each week than I put into undergrad studies.

I cannot wait (you do not know my circumstances). It is not that I do not want to wait. I have my reasons and trust you're all adult enough to respect that. (I know several will prove me wrong).

I'm looking for some encouragement. Not someone to tell me it's not worth it.

And I must say most of you are outnumbered.

There are thousands of law school students that attend a lower tier, go into debt, and risk the market ALL in hopes of improving their future. If people listened to you only the top 20 schools would have a student body. Yet for some reason (not ignorance I'm certain), law schools across the country will have every seat filled by August.


You're telling other people to be the adults here? Stop acting so high and mighty. I've been reading this thread, and a lot of people have offered sound advice in a rational and sometimes supportive manner. Your retaliation (evidenced by pretty much all your reply posts) is unnecessary, and honestly works against this mature image you're trying so desperately to create. I don't know why you feel the need to be so defensive. Sure it's an online message board, but that doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to sound like an arrogant e-douche.

Advice and opinions have been offered. Take it or leave it. Some have good points, some have bad points. You know your situation the best, so take what you've read and use it to your advantage. If you were only looking for encouragement, go pay a stranger to soothe you with nurturing words. But if you want something more realistic, of course you'll have to deal with some harsh comments - especially justifiable ones about how it MAY NOT be worth it for you in your case. You don't provide all the information, then attack people when they give advice based on just what you've given?

My favorite part was your last paragraph -- when was aspiring to be the majority in a situation ever make it the right thing to do? I think ignorance plays a big part into why so many law schools get filled up. ITE, law isn't the safest profession to move into. True for many jobs, but here you're risking time and money. Still, your call to make. I certainly wouldn't ascribe success to an idea just because so many other people do it. Hell, I've spent my life trying to do things most other people couldn't do, and I am nowhere near satisfied with my progress.

Best of luck to you in your ventures. I don't know if this thread can really give you what you want to hear.

Danteshek
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Danteshek » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:07 pm

In my experience as a 1L at a T3 school, all I can say is that most of my classmates had 1) perfectly good reasons for coming to this school, and 2) reasonable expectations.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:34 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:
citrus2010 wrote:Hard work? Yes. Doable? Yes.


Not too fast: There's no guarantee that you'll outperform your classmates in law school. Also, this is something that might interest you:
http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/


"My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY"

Uh oh... I'm in trouble lol.


WTF is T8? Blatant Penn/Berkeley Trolling?

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Threepeat
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Threepeat » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:39 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the title of this thread was "Why is everyone so anti T3" not "Please post the nice things you have to say about T3's". People posted their opposition to TTT's, what more can this guy ask for?

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Good point. I think there has been some solid points made that not all TTT schools are garbage. But if you are going to be paying 30,000 grand or more a year for a TTT school then they are ass raping you especially if it is in a state like California or even Florida where there are already well established law schools.

Can the OP give us which TTT schools in particular he is looking at? That could help us out alot in evaluating things.

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devilishangelrjp
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby devilishangelrjp » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:52 pm

citrus2010 wrote:Apparently you're all misunderstanding me. I'm extremely competent and ambitious. I excel at everything I place as a priority. I am the best at my job and that is why I could not find time for super LSAT study. I will not be working during law school which then makes it my full time job. Note that I spent 50+ hours working and managed to pull a 3.6 GPA my last two years of undergrad (all at the same time PLUS I was preparing for the LSAT and being a father all at the same time as well). Not working will give me 50 hours more each week than I put into undergrad studies.

I cannot wait (you do not know my circumstances). It is not that I do not want to wait. I have my reasons and trust you're all adult enough to respect that. (I know several will prove me wrong).

I'm looking for some encouragement. Not someone to tell me it's not worth it.

And I must say most of you are outnumbered.

There are thousands of law school students that attend a lower tier, go into debt, and risk the market ALL in hopes of improving their future. If people listened to you only the top 20 schools would have a student body. Yet for some reason (not ignorance I'm certain), law schools across the country will have every seat filled by August.


I mean, if you wanted honesty, you got it. You asked why everyone is so anti-T3, and it just seemed to me that you're looking for a pat on the back for mediocrity. If you want the truth, that's it. And the reason a lot of applicants are "T14 or bust" is because a lot of employers are.

citrus2010
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby citrus2010 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:05 am

thanks to all for your responses. I did phrase my question the wrong way. Feel free to look down upon those attending T20 or lower... I'm moving on. I'll see you all out in the real world once reality catches up and you find responsibilities outside of TLS forums and school. And someday you'll all eat your opinions when I make it to the supreme court! haha




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