Why is everyone so anti T3?

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:48 am

A TTT is fine if you can go there with very low debt. For example, I applied and got into U of Arkansas in Little Rock and got a full ride. Is it a TTT school? Sure is. But being able to go to a law school that is at least decent and come out with very very little debt is certainly appealing, particularly considering the fact I have no real desire to work BigLaw jobs and will likely pursue a prosecutor, or criminal defense attorney or government work after graduation.

Now will I go to this school? Probably not as I have gotten into other schools and I am still waiting to hear back from several more, as well as on hold and the hell known as waitlisted at other schools. However, I wouldn't think the sky was falling if I did go to this particular TTT school because of how little debt I am coming out with.

I think people shit on TTT schools because, like others have said, alot of students come out with six figure or near six figure debt. Going to a school like Barry, or worse Cooley, and coming out with mega debt along with a low ranked school is the double death. If you are going to a TTT school be sure you are going on the VERY very cheap and fully aware of what your career prospects likely will be.

Also I would advise looking at the area the TTT school is in. Is it a TTT school, for example, California? If so then I would advise against it, except for maybe McGeorge since I would assume it has at least a decent shot at government work. California is saturated with law schools and many of them are very good law schools, along with the fact the state is bankrupt. Even if I was looking at a full ride from McGeorge I likely would not go as the competition in that state is just so steep, unless I had some major connections I could count on after graduation.

However, if you are looking at a TTT in a smaller state with little competition then that is a different story. For example West Virginia. If I was ok with being in the state and could go with little debt coming out then I would have no problem with that TTT school. Or a school like University of Maine. While not a TTT school it is at the end of the T100 schools but you have almost a monopoly for jobs in the state and Maine is a beautiful state as long as you can handle the cold. I doubt there are alot of students from other New England schools breaking down the door to practice in Maine so going to U of Maine on the cheap isn't a bad choice.

Overall not all TTT schools are created equal. But if you are looking at going to a TTT school at sticker and that school shares a state with much better schools, like in California, then I would HIGHLY advise against it short of having great connections.

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LawandOrder
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby LawandOrder » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:31 am

Posting in a troll thread.

That being said 10/10, well done.

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:38 am

1. I like how that although this thread has been buzzing, citrus2010 has posted only twice - once to kick it off, and again to briefly flame. Why even bother, folks?

But for the benefit of the lurkers...

2. If waiting a year after achieving poor numbers is an option, and doing better on the LSAT is a possibility, then why not? A few more questions right and you might end up with a degree that will actually get you a job, or at least a cheaper education (with T3 scholarship money). You only get to hit the launch button once.

3. Don't go to an expensive Tier 3 law school and plan on being a lawyer for the money. Run the numbers (while being honest with yourself) and you won't like what you see.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:58 am

citrus2010 wrote:Hard work? Yes. Doable? Yes.


Not too fast: There's no guarantee that you'll outperform your classmates in law school. Also, this is something that might interest you:
http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:02 am

Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:53 pm

I was waiting to see when you saw that.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:09 pm

There is a purely economic and probabilistic way to look at schools, which seems to be largely what happens here. People look at the ranking of the school, they look at the cost, and then they look at the probability of graduating students placements and their income. The only "soft" consideration seems to be how many people you can convince that you're awesome because you went to school X.

There is a lesser considered way to look at law school, which still includes an economic evaluation (i.e. school will cost X, and then I can assume a range/median of $X-X/X, what are my monthly student loan payments) but also assumes you actually WANT to practice law (I know, crazy, right).

If you can afford the debt, and you truly want to practice the law - if you can find a school that should afford you some opportunities, and you are realistic...there is no problem whatsoever.

There is just abounding elitism coupled with money and prestige hungry people here.

Myself? I went to state school, probably not known outside my state, for a BA in psychology. That should have landed me no jobs...but I've now been in full time research positions at both Stanford and UCSF. Some of it was luck, but a lot of it was seeking out opportunities, hard work, and going above and beyond. Don't tell me there weren't a bunch of Stanford and Berkeley students searching for the same jobs - I saw their resumes.

Do what makes you happy, keep reality in mind, and let the superficial, disingenuous people play their own games.

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Threepeat
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Threepeat » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:30 pm

darknightbegins wrote:I was waiting to see when you saw that.



+1...anytime there is UF bashing, you know Lomax won't be far behind.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:40 pm

Lomax wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.

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thickfreakness
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby thickfreakness » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:48 pm

I've got nothing against HYS. I guess some people get jealous because they can't get in.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:51 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.


lol dont have a horse in this, but found it ironic that the person w/ 96 posts is calling the person w/ 5k+ "new"

+1 on the TLS terminology of TTT; it's horrible but so TLS haha

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thedogship
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby thedogship » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:51 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.


What is the geographic reach of Florida Law? Any mobility outside of the state? This is not said in a mocking tone, I just haven't met a lawyer who went to Florida Law or seen that school named in any attorney's profile in the website for a DC or NY firm. I'm assuming that could be in large part due to geographic self-selection rather than the quality of the school. Or I haven't viewed enough firm websites.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:28 pm

thedogship wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.


What is the geographic reach of Florida Law? Any mobility outside of the state? This is not said in a mocking tone, I just haven't met a lawyer who went to Florida Law or seen that school named in any attorney's profile in the website for a DC or NY firm. I'm assuming that could be in large part due to geographic self-selection rather than the quality of the school. Or I haven't viewed enough firm websites.


Woooooow there cowboy.


So what educational/quality differences are there in T1 minus a few standouts?

09042014
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:29 pm

citrus2010 wrote:I understand that the higher ranked the school the smaller the mountain you have to climb. I'm a firm believer in going to the highest ranked school possible. That said, if TTT is the best you can get with a poor GPA (married with two kids and worked 50 hrs/wk through undergrad) is it really so bad?

I know people who have been unemployed for almost a year. I've lost my job twice and gotten new ones. It frustrates me that people are telling me to wait a year and retake the LSAT. I want to be an attorney! I don't want to wait a year and I'm not convinced that I can't be every bit as successful coming from a T3. Hard work? Yes. Doable? Yes.

Once placed in a successful firm I'm confident (not just looking through rose tinted glasses) that there are law jobs out there for the taking.

So... Why the negativity? Does everyone just expect things to be handed to them and if not, it's not worth it? Hard work is a fact of life. For those out there with JDs and looking at jobs you could have had as an undergrad, what is the real problem?


GPA never keeps someone out of the T1, LSAT does.

HTH

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Ragged
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Ragged » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:40 pm

Oh god not another one of these. The first reply is TCR.

09042014
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:43 pm

Already posted today. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=108128

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:00 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:.....and for the 2,356,894th time, no one is arguing that a T3 in an unsaturated market, with a scholarship, contacts, government aspirations w/contacts, lower overall state school price - ie U. of South Dakota, Florida, etc., is necessarily a bad decision. Just know what your getting yourself into and don't trust the schools to be 100% forthcoming with useful data. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!


The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.


lol dont have a horse in this, but found it ironic that the person w/ 96 posts is calling the person w/ 5k+ "new"

+1 on the TLS terminology of TTT; it's horrible but so TLS haha


I found it ironic too, but what can I say? The guy has 5,000+ posts and still can't tell a mid-level Tier 1 school from a Tier 3.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby kittenmittons » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:03 pm

sTTTanford sucks. It's HY for a reason.

hth

09042014
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:05 pm

Lomax wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Lomax wrote:
The University of Florida, a T3? :roll: You must be new here.

Dude, everyone knows that beyond the top 20-30 schools, with some of the belief that anything below the T6, ARE ALL TTT's. Welcome to TLS n00b.


lol dont have a horse in this, but found it ironic that the person w/ 96 posts is calling the person w/ 5k+ "new"

+1 on the TLS terminology of TTT; it's horrible but so TLS haha


I found it ironic too, but what can I say? The guy has 5,000+ posts and still can't tell a mid-level Tier 1 school from a Tier 3.


TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:58 pm

Desert Fox wrote:TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.


Oh please. Now you're equating UF to, say, Stetson (a genuine Florida Tier 3)? And you're insulting my intelligence? Mid Tier 1 is not "about the same" as Tier 3. I am not going to argue this point with you here, because if I actually need to do that, then you probably aren't open to reason. And no, I don't care how many posts you've made.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:05 pm

Lomax wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.


Oh please. Now you're equating UF to, say, Stetson (a genuine Florida Tier 3)? And you're insulting my intelligence? Mid Tier 1 is not "about the same" as Tier 3. I am not going to argue this point with you here, because if I actually need to do that, then you probably aren't open to reason. And no, I don't care how many posts you've made.


But...what exactly at the differences in quality of education that are so substantial (assuming the same student at each school).

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Lomax
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby Lomax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:52 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.


Oh please. Now you're equating UF to, say, Stetson (a genuine Florida Tier 3)? And you're insulting my intelligence? Mid Tier 1 is not "about the same" as Tier 3. I am not going to argue this point with you here, because if I actually need to do that, then you probably aren't open to reason. And no, I don't care how many posts you've made.


But...what exactly at the differences in quality of education that are so substantial (assuming the same student at each school).


What exactly are the differences in quality of education that are so substantial between UCLA and Stetson? Answer that and apply the answer you come up with to your question. But this isn't even about quality of education - it's about each school's ability to land its graduates jobs. In that regard, hard data shows that UF beats Stetson by a fair margin. Again, I am not going to argue that here. It is covered in other threads, and should be taken for granted anyway.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:55 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
Lomax wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:TBF he assumed he was dealing with an intelligent person who would from context understand he means that mid tier 1 is about the same as tier 3, instead of literally being tier3.


Oh please. Now you're equating UF to, say, Stetson (a genuine Florida Tier 3)? And you're insulting my intelligence? Mid Tier 1 is not "about the same" as Tier 3. I am not going to argue this point with you here, because if I actually need to do that, then you probably aren't open to reason. And no, I don't care how many posts you've made.


But...what exactly at the differences in quality of education that are so substantial (assuming the same student at each school).


I've had my go arounds with Lomax recently but on this one I have to back him up. If a student from UF and a student from Stetson, each graduating at the median of their class and equal in other important factors, who do you think is getting the job?

Also if you think any outside T6 or T14 are all TTT schools then you think a school like William and Mary is equal to Cooley?

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darknightbegins
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:56 pm

Some how I double posted here and quoted myself sorry for the fuck up

citrus2010
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Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?

Postby citrus2010 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:12 am

To those obsessed with my absence from the discussion, I apologize for working. I spend a very small portion of my time online, unlike some of you. I work a lot and spend most of my spare time with my newborn son and two year old daughter. I would shoot for Harvard if I had the time to do so, but I would have to sacrifice my family's well being. I am the sole provider and pride myself in that fact. To do better on the LSAT would require quitting my job and ignoring my family beyond that which I am willing.

It is not that it is difficult. It is that I have real responsibilities.

Along with my TTT education I bring a business background and am entirely confident in my abilities to join the legal side of the venture capital field. A JD is a huge door, whether it's a Harvard JD or a Barry JD. I side with those who respect the person, not the school because everyone here knows there's Harvard grads that didn't earn an ounce of their "clout."

I respect all of the opinions and the solid advice to retake the LSAT. The truth is, however, that I cannot wait another year (though I admit it would be beneficial and jump start my career).

THAT SAID.... I'd like to hear from those of you who know of success stories from 3rd or 4th tier schools. I've read enough of these forums to know all the crap people have to say.

P.S. from a business background, I'm well aware of the importance of a cost/benefit analysis and ROI.




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