Re: Why is everyone so anti T3?
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:19 pm
+1Danteshek wrote:Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
Law School Discussion Forums
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/
https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=108047
+1Danteshek wrote:Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
If you work hard and do well, you will be fine
I understand that a "sense of entitlement" isn't a popular thing, but I fail to see what one's feelings of entitlement have to do with worldly success except to the extent that those feelings result in inadequate work or become so obvious that they are off-putting. In the real world, arrogance/entitlement does not necessarily result in either. Being that we don't live in a world of perfect justice, merely deserving to succeed does not necessarily result in success (and vice verse).Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success
Yeah, you can work hard at digging a ditch for 5 cents an hour but, uhh...why....would you want to?Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
I say the same thing about selling investments...and I have a UG in finance.MTal wrote:Yeah, you can work hard at digging a ditch for 5 cents an hour but, uhh...why....would you want to?Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
Selling investments will get you substantially more than the median starting salary of all attorneys in my state, without the life-crushing non-dischargeable debt to boot. Chew on that for a while.brigun wrote:I say the same thing about selling investments...and I have a UG in finance.MTal wrote:Yeah, you can work hard at digging a ditch for 5 cents an hour but, uhh...why....would you want to?Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
Hey, whatever helps you to sleep at night, bro. At least you're not bitter...MTal wrote:Selling investments will get you substantially more than the median starting salary of all attorneys in my state, without the life-crushing non-dischargeable debt to boot. Chew on that for a while.brigun wrote:I say the same thing about selling investments...and I have a UG in finance.MTal wrote:Yeah, you can work hard at digging a ditch for 5 cents an hour but, uhh...why....would you want to?Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
Yeah it definitely helps me sleep at night knowing that my financial future is secure, and that paying off my crushing 6 figure non-dischargeable debt isn't contingent upon me correctly citing Hamer vs. Sidway in a convoluted fact pattern on a 3 hour exam.brigun wrote: Hey, whatever helps you to sleep at night, bro.
And not everyone has that luxury, in fact, much of the country does not.MTal wrote:Yeah it definitely helps me sleep at night knowing that my financial future is secure, and that paying off my crushing 6 figure non-dischargeable debt isn't contingent upon me correctly citing Hamer vs. Sidway in a convoluted fact pattern on a 3 hour exam.brigun wrote: Hey, whatever helps you to sleep at night, bro.
Wait till you start work at a law firm.Danteshek wrote: Financial institutions tend to attract some of the least interesting and least intellectually curious individuals I've come into contact with.
I currently work in a non profit law firm one day a week. It's been a great experience. There is lots of interesting substantive work and client contact. By and large, the lawyers I know (I have dozens of high school classmates already in practice in Southern California) are far more intellectually agile than the financial professionals in my network.MTal wrote:Wait till you start work at a law firm.Danteshek wrote: Financial institutions tend to attract some of the least interesting and least intellectually curious individuals I've come into contact with.
I am guessing that you were/are a philosophy major. Am I right? ... Just curious.nealric wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine
Isn't this statement a bit tautological? If you do well, you will do well.
I understand that a "sense of entitlement" isn't a popular thing, but I fail to see what one's feelings of entitlement have to do with worldly success except to the extent that those feelings result in inadequate work or become so obvious that they are off-putting. In the real world, arrogance/entitlement does not necessarily result in either. Being that we don't live in a world of perfect justice, merely deserving to succeed does not necessarily result in success (and vice verse).Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success
Another point: While I'm sure there are plenty of self-important people with a sense of entitlement in the legal profession, I think there is a strong tendency for people to label anyone they are envious of with these attributes.
The competition is a little more intense at T3 schools. If you're a gamer, this is a good thing. You should want your classmates pushing you to be the best you can be. This, I think, is the fundamental difference. Like Avis, we try harder. We know it's not good enough to be as good as the next guy. We have to be much better. This environment carries over to the workplace. We are sometimes ridiculed. However, those words and thoughts always come from a place of insecurity and fear. At some point, T1 law students have to face a world where hiding behind a piece of paper will not yield the hoped for result. And that is terrifying.Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
Your back is going to start bruising if you keep patting it so hard.Danteshek wrote:The competition is a little more intense at T3 schools. If you're a gamer, this is a good thing. You should want your classmates pushing you to be the best you can be. This, I think, is the fundamental difference. Like Avis, we try harder. We know it's not good enough to be as good as the next guy. We have to be much better. This environment carries over to the workplace. We are sometimes ridiculed. However, those words and thoughts always come from a place of insecurity and fear. At some point, T1 law students have to face a world where hiding behind a piece of paper will not yield the hoped for result. And that is terrifying.Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
wait, im a gamer, but i dont see how more competition is a good thing for me. totally kills my WoW-playing hours and mass effect 2 reruns.Danteshek wrote:The competition is a little more intense at T3 schools. If you're a gamer, this is a good thing. You should want your classmates pushing you to be the best you can be. This, I think, is the fundamental difference. Like Avis, we try harder. We know it's not good enough to be as good as the next guy. We have to be much better. This environment carries over to the workplace. We are sometimes ridiculed. However, those words and thoughts always come from a place of insecurity and fear. At some point, T1 law students have to face a world where hiding behind a piece of paper will not yield the hoped for result. And that is terrifying.Danteshek wrote:If you work hard and do well, you will be fine. Not having a sense of entitlement (unlike so many on this board) is important for your future success.
MTal wrote:Wait till you start work at a law firm.Danteshek wrote: Financial institutions tend to attract some of the least interesting and least intellectually curious individuals I've come into contact with.
hahahaha i have to say MTal, your reputation certainly precedes you -- even a poster w/ just 20 under his belt knows about you!brigun wrote: Hey, whatever helps you to sleep at night, bro. At least you're not bitter...
You sound a lot like I sounded last year. I go to a TLS TTT (a school in the T40-60), and I was convinced last summer that taking a year off is a waste of time, and it'd end up costing me more money (it would in a loss equal to whatever I'm making the year before I retire, roughly). Anyway, I decided to push the "launch" button, as it were, and take a chance at the school I'm currently attending, instead of doing the rational and smart thing--petitioning for a chance to retake the LSAT and scoring significantly higher. I wish I had done that instead.citrus2010 wrote:Along with my TTT education I bring a business background and am entirely confident in my abilities to join the legal side of the venture capital field. A JD is a huge door, whether it's a Harvard JD or a Barry JD. I side with those who respect the person, not the school because everyone here knows there's Harvard grads that didn't earn an ounce of their "clout."
Great Satchmo wrote:There is a purely economic and probabilistic way to look at schools, which seems to be largely what happens here. People look at the ranking of the school, they look at the cost, and then they look at the probability of graduating students placements and their income. The only "soft" consideration seems to be how many people you can convince that you're awesome because you went to school X.
There is a lesser considered way to look at law school, which still includes an economic evaluation (i.e. school will cost X, and then I can assume a range/median of $X-X/X, what are my monthly student loan payments) but also assumes you actually WANT to practice law (I know, crazy, right).
If you can afford the debt, and you truly want to practice the law - if you can find a school that should afford you some opportunities, and you are realistic...there is no problem whatsoever.
There is just abounding elitism coupled with money and prestige hungry people here.
Myself? I went to state school, probably not known outside my state, for a BA in psychology. That should have landed me no jobs...but I've now been in full time research positions at both Stanford and UCSF. Some of it was luck, but a lot of it was seeking out opportunities, hard work, and going above and beyond. Don't tell me there weren't a bunch of Stanford and Berkeley students searching for the same jobs - I saw their resumes.
Do what makes you happy, keep reality in mind, and let the superficial, disingenuous people play their own games.
You don't have to lurk very long to figure him out.DoubleChecks wrote:MTal wrote:Wait till you start work at a law firm.Danteshek wrote: Financial institutions tend to attract some of the least interesting and least intellectually curious individuals I've come into contact with.hahahaha i have to say MTal, your reputation certainly precedes you -- even a poster w/ just 20 under his belt knows about you!brigun wrote: Hey, whatever helps you to sleep at night, bro. At least you're not bitter...
I was a philosophy major. I guess using the term "tautology" was a dead giveaway.I am guessing that you were/are a philosophy major. Am I right? ... Just curious.
I think the key is individual circumstances. I also think there is no magic divide between 50-100 ranked schools and T3/T4s. There are T2s that IMO are close to financial suicide for most, and there are T4s that are sound investments for most.
Just curious as to how (in my situation at least) attending a school ranked 50 to 100 and paying 39,000 to 42,000 in tuition alone is a better choice than attending a tier 3 school where I have to pay 35,000 total in a city that has a good legal market with several prestigious law firms.
nealric wrote:I was a philosophy major. I guess using the term "tautology" was a dead giveaway.
I underlined the things that tipped me off ... all phrases from the analytic tradition (I know that it is an overly broad characterization, but you know what I mean).Being that we don't live in a world of perfect justice, merely deserving to succeed does not necessarily result in success (and vice verse).
Several prestigious law firms you will only see from the outside if you go to a T3 w/out connections
Just curious as to how (in my situation at least) attending a school ranked 50 to 100 and paying 39,000 to 42,000 in tuition alone is a better choice than attending a tier 3 school where I have to pay 35,000 total in a city that has a good legal market with several prestigious law firms.