Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Bronte
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:35 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:How's Michigan's placement (no market in particular, just something east of the Mississippi)? I keep hearing horror stories about how Mich is a TTT in decline.


FMaze wrote:Curious, where does one locate “these past stats”. . . somewhere on the net?

In looking at several BigLaw sites with offices on the Eastern seaboard (providing attorneys via school info), I am not seeing Mich as well represented as other T14 schools (not counting H/Y). I also noticed firms with locations in Florida, the Florida schools ruled (UF, FSU, Miami). . . which is not surprising (other than their ratio is through the roof). True for DC, where the local law schools have a very high ratio.

PS - I did locate this one site: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/index.shtml


If you're new to this site, you may not be aware of the fact that there's rampant trolling. People spend weeks of their life arguing that, say, Duke is better than Virginia and all the schools in that range, and that Michigan is in decline. Here's my response from another thread:

Bronte wrote:My only "claim" is the status quo: that MVPDNCetc are roughly equivalent, with geographical strengths. This is the null hypothesis; I don't have to provide evidence. But I will anyway:

Most recent NLJ250 survey:
Michigan 51%
Duke 49.8%

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Most recent federal clerkship data (USNWR):
Michigan 13.9%
Duke 11.9%

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

Most recent Brian Leiter prestigious law firm ranking:
Michigan/Duke tied for 10th place

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Only Vault 100 placement stats I've ever seen (really old):
Duke 55.8%
Michigan 41.3% (tied with UVA)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=135954

Average USNWR ranking this millennium:
Michigan: around 8th
Duke: around 11th

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

Vault employability survey:
Michigan: 2nd
Duke: 12th

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/blo ... y_id=10864

Again, I believe most of these data sources / rankings are highly flawed, and that the only valid conclusion to draw is that Michigan, Duke, Virginia, etc. are peer schools. I've yet to see a shred of credible evidence to the contrary.

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby 03121202698008 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:15 pm

Also, keep in mind that MI grads tend to go all over the US versus other schools where almost everyone goes to a single major market. So, the lack of a huge number of grads ≠ couldn't go there if they wanted to.

Bronte wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:How's Michigan's placement (no market in particular, just something east of the Mississippi)? I keep hearing horror stories about how Mich is a TTT in decline.


FMaze wrote:Curious, where does one locate “these past stats”. . . somewhere on the net?

In looking at several BigLaw sites with offices on the Eastern seaboard (providing attorneys via school info), I am not seeing Mich as well represented as other T14 schools (not counting H/Y). I also noticed firms with locations in Florida, the Florida schools ruled (UF, FSU, Miami). . . which is not surprising (other than their ratio is through the roof). True for DC, where the local law schools have a very high ratio.

PS - I did locate this one site: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/index.shtml


If you're new to this site, you may not be aware of the fact that there's rampant trolling. People spend weeks of their life arguing that, say, Duke is better than Virginia and all the schools in that range, and that Michigan is in decline. Here's my response from another thread:

Bronte wrote:My only "claim" is the status quo: that MVPDNCetc are roughly equivalent, with geographical strengths. This is the null hypothesis; I don't have to provide evidence. But I will anyway:

Most recent NLJ250 survey:
Michigan 51%
Duke 49.8%

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Most recent federal clerkship data (USNWR):
Michigan 13.9%
Duke 11.9%

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

Most recent Brian Leiter prestigious law firm ranking:
Michigan/Duke tied for 10th place

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Only Vault 100 placement stats I've ever seen (really old):
Duke 55.8%
Michigan 41.3% (tied with UVA)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=135954

Average USNWR ranking this millennium:
Michigan: around 8th
Duke: around 11th

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

Vault employability survey:
Michigan: 2nd
Duke: 12th

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/blo ... y_id=10864

Again, I believe most of these data sources / rankings are highly flawed, and that the only valid conclusion to draw is that Michigan, Duke, Virginia, etc. are peer schools. I've yet to see a shred of credible evidence to the contrary.

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niederbomb
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby niederbomb » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:30 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
niederbomb wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before, but has Michigan suffered disproportionately during the recession relative to other T10 law schools? Michigan is not proximate to a large legal market like U of Chicago and NYU are, for example. So how does this affect Michigan grads when things get tight?

So here's my take on the issue, but I'm going to choose my words carefully because it is a rather delicate issue for all students (not only those without jobs).

Last year
Oh boy, where to begin? Michigan admittedly seems to have underperformed its ranking compared to a couple schools for one very large reason - nobody had any idea how bad the hiring and economy was going to be. From all reports, our OCS (and in their defense, it's hard to say this was their fault when faced with complete uncertainty) strongly encouraged students to underbid. Significantly. And when I say significantly, I mean significantly. This is one of the largest and most frequent complaints I heard from students all last year. As a result, you had a very substantial number of students in the top 10-15%/LR range bidding primarily on firms that would have been more "median-ish" firms under the belief that they had to completely lower their expectations. The trickle down effect that resulted was quite damaging because it displaced the bids/competitiveness of the remainder of the class. As a result of all of this, our class's employment took a larger blow than I think it needed to last year.

In addition, many students were reportedly encouraged to avoid NYC like the plague - the reason being that Michigan, because of the geographic spread of its graduates, had several other venues for people to turn to. Because of these other options, and concerns over the state of NYC due to the financial crisis, far too many people avoided markets that they would have normally bid on. What ended up happening, in hindsight, was that most other markets were incredibly brutal and NYC ended up being one of the better places to bid, relative to Chicago/SF/DC. In fact, Michigan almost put as many people into DC firms (which are notorious for being more selective) as we did in NYC firms, and we placed significantly more into DC firms + DC federal agencies (DOJ, FTC, Treasury Dept, Homeland Security, etc) than we did in NYC. These programs and firms are all typically extraordinarily selective, and Michigan still did relatively quite well in the city. In fact, the number of firm jobs we placed students into in DC exceeded the average annual number of DC firm jobs students received for the classes of 2007-2009 (OCIs in 2005-2007). Although I admit I have a pro-Michigan bias, I really don't think it's too much of a stretch on Michigan's behalf to suggest that our poor placement in NYC (and as a result, in raw statistics) was the result of well-intentioned, but slightly overcautious, bidding advice (both in terms of GPA and city-choice), and certainly not due to any deficiency in employers' perspectives of our students. Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20, and Michigan probably underperformed slightly compared to what it could have.

This Year
Like I said, hindsight helps. While I'm speaking from a relatively limited sample of students compared to the whole class, I am cautiously optimistic as to how this year will turn out. Don't get me wrong, it's not 2006 anymore - there are still a number of students looking for jobs. Yet I have the feeling that C/O 2012 approached OCI with a much better idea of what to expect, on the whole. I was speaking with a friend about this yesterday, and both of us were under the impression that many of the strategic problems that really harmed last year's OCI seemed much less significant this year. While I know those who are still looking for summer plans are naturally going to be more quiet about where they are job-wise, I'm still cautiously optimistic about where members of this year's OCI class will end up, relative to last year. Anecdotally, I've heard of a rather healthy number of people with V10 and DC offers, and I wouldn't be surprised if our placement this year improves substantially. I know this answer is somewhat vague, but as a result of not wanting to ask people their summer plans and not having any official data, it unfortunately will have to remain that way until that a summer list is released.

All of that said, I will close up this post by suggesting that Michigan's arguable "underperformance" last year had little to do with proximity to markets (as evidenced by our DC placement). Instead, I think it had much more to do with what cities people bid on, as well as where along the spectrum of firms people bid. That said, I think those issues have been alleviated significantly. While I don't think any school is really facing 2006 again, I think you have very little to worry about at Michigan as compared to any other T10 school.


Honestly, if I had a choice between Michigan, UVA, and Penn, which one provides the best job prospects for NYC/DC? I'm international at the moment and won't have a chance to visit, so I have to base my decision solely on job prospects in the cities I where I want to work.

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby lisjjen » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:40 pm

This is me tagging this conversation.

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Bronte
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Bronte » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:45 pm

niederbomb wrote:Honestly, if I had a choice between Michigan, UVA, and Penn, which one provides the best job prospects for NYC/DC? I'm international at the moment and won't have a chance to visit, so I have to base my decision solely on job prospects in the cities I where I want to work.


First, FlightoftheEarls comment is a very detailed description of his anecdotal view of how well his class at Michigan did. His ultimate conclusion is that he doesn't have "any official data" and that there is "very little to worry about at Michigan as compared to any other T10 school." Mostly what he's describing is the famous bidding mistakes that were made by that class as a result of the panic and as a result of bad advice from OCS, mistakes that will never be made again.

Second, in regards to your question, Michigan/UVA/Penn are all peers in terms of job prospects. There's really no data that suggests otherwise, and plenty of data that suggests this is the case (see my post above). Be weary of those who tell you otherwise. Since you won't be visiting, go to the school that gives you the best offer (but be sure to ask the schools to match each others offers).

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lushka
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby lushka » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:55 pm

Does anyone live in the detroit suburbs? And if they do do their grades/Law School life in general suffer because of it? I may be forced to live closer to Detroit than Ann Arbor... THANKS!

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby 03121202698008 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:04 am

lushka wrote:Does anyone live in the detroit suburbs? And if they do do their grades/Law School life in general suffer because of it? I may be forced to live closer to Detroit than Ann Arbor... THANKS!


I've heard of one or two people doing this but it would suck. Seriously, live in A2 or Ypsi (if you must...).

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby thalassocrat » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm

blowhard wrote:
lushka wrote:Does anyone live in the detroit suburbs? And if they do do their grades/Law School life in general suffer because of it? I may be forced to live closer to Detroit than Ann Arbor... THANKS!


I've heard of one or two people doing this but it would suck. Seriously, live in A2 or Ypsi (if you must...).


Yea, I have one friend living about 20 minutes out, though her commute usually ends up taking much longer thanks to traffic/parking/buses to campus/etc. She doesn't like it at all, and I know she's planning to move closer next year.

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Burgstaller04
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Burgstaller04 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:32 pm

Did any of you get need based aid? I got a merit scholly but I'm still on the fence. A few thousand extra dollars would swing me squarely in favor of being a wolverine.

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Joan Hollaway
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Joan Hollaway » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:53 pm

Burgstaller04 wrote:Did any of you get need based aid? I got a merit scholly but I'm still on the fence. A few thousand extra dollars would swing me squarely in favor of being a wolverine.

I'm pretty sure if you get a merit scholly you are no longer eligible for need based aid. It should say so on your scholly letter.

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math101
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby math101 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:42 am

Are there any good supermarkets near campus? I don't have a car, and I'm planning on renting an apartment near the ls. Also, are there meal plan options for the LC dining room for students not living in LC? I'd like to take some meals there if possible because I've heard that the social aspect of the LC is partly in the dining hall. If there are meal plans available, could you guys direct me to a link or something, please?

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby GMVarun » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:53 pm

math101 wrote:Are there any good supermarkets near campus? I don't have a car, and I'm planning on renting an apartment near the ls. Also, are there meal plan options for the LC dining room for students not living in LC? I'd like to take some meals there if possible because I've heard that the social aspect of the LC is partly in the dining hall. If there are meal plans available, could you guys direct me to a link or something, please?


There are grocery stores around, but what works for me is to use a zip-car and go to costco and just buy stuff in bulk. There's a costco about 20 minutes from here so that works to 15 dollars (which covers gas) for a zip car. It's very convenient for me and it avoids the hassle of having to carry your groceries for a long distance. I can't really speak too much about the grocery stores in Ann Arbor. I have gone to one 5 minutes from the LS and that one was fine.

As far as the LC is concerned, you can definitely purchase any meal you want at the same rate (I think; I haven't done the math) as LC residents. It means that it takes you an extra minute to go to the desk, but it works out nicely if you want to eat in the LC (one of my friends does this routinely, at least for lunch). I am not aware of any formal meal plan for non-residents but then again assuming equal rates, who would get a meal plan. Also, there's a lot going on during lunchtimes - there are usually lectures, various clinic discussions, etc. all with free food/pizza that many LC residents/and non-residents go to so I would advise against a meal plan even for the minimal convenience of prepaying.

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artichoke
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby artichoke » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 pm

Could someone who has lived or is currently living in the Lawyer's Club please please PM me? I have a question that I would prefer not to post here.

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby pulandasu » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:16 pm

I've signed up for 3/10-12 preview weekend, but was wondering what % of students have cars. How easy is it to own a car (financially and logistcally) during my student life at AA?

Thanks,

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Burgstaller04
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Burgstaller04 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:24 pm

Joan Hollaway wrote:
Burgstaller04 wrote:Did any of you get need based aid? I got a merit scholly but I'm still on the fence. A few thousand extra dollars would swing me squarely in favor of being a wolverine.
I'm pretty sure if you get a merit scholly you are no longer eligible for need based aid. It should say so on your scholly letter.
I just checked out my letter and it says I am eligible to apply for need based aid. Anyone get any of it in past years?

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thalassocrat
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby thalassocrat » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:31 pm

pulandasu wrote:I've signed up for 3/10-12 preview weekend, but was wondering what % of students have cars. How easy is it to own a car (financially and logistcally) during my student life at AA?

Thanks,


So I don't have a car, but some things to keep in mind are where you're planning on living, how much the car currently costs you, maybe how much experience you have with winter weather maintenance/driving, etc. If you're planning on living in the Lawyer's Club, you'll either end up renting a space or trying to find free parking. If you're planning on living off campus keeping a car is more practical, but you might not want to drive in every day just because as I understand it parking's a bitch around here. I think someone who actually does this will give better advice on it though.

I can't tell you an exact percentage, but there are a number of people who keep cars even while living in the LC.

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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby pulandasu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:52 am

thalassocrat wrote:
pulandasu wrote:I've signed up for 3/10-12 preview weekend, but was wondering what % of students have cars. How easy is it to own a car (financially and logistcally) during my student life at AA?

Thanks,


So I don't have a car, but some things to keep in mind are where you're planning on living, how much the car currently costs you, maybe how much experience you have with winter weather maintenance/driving, etc. If you're planning on living in the Lawyer's Club, you'll either end up renting a space or trying to find free parking. If you're planning on living off campus keeping a car is more practical, but you might not want to drive in every day just because as I understand it parking's a bitch around here. I think someone who actually does this will give better advice on it though.

I can't tell you an exact percentage, but there are a number of people who keep cars even while living in the LC.


Thanks thalassocrat! I live in Manhattan so I currently don't own a car. If I can get around by not having a car, that'd be great.

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Entchen
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Entchen » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:55 am

Would anyone who lives/lived there be willing to post pics of the inside of the lawyer's club? Since chances are I'll be living there, I'm kind of curious...

zardoz
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby zardoz » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:51 am

This slideshow (http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/Documents/housingpage.html) has a bunch of pictures of the inside of the Lawyers Club and its rooms. Most of the pictures are pretty representative, except the rooms are way cleaner than usual.

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Entchen
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Entchen » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:04 am

zardoz wrote:This slideshow (http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/Documents/housingpage.html) has a bunch of pictures of the inside of the Lawyers Club and its rooms. Most of the pictures are pretty representative, except the rooms are way cleaner than usual.

Thanks!

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yoitsmebenny
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby yoitsmebenny » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:34 pm

I just read through this whole topic, and Michigan's stock in my book has shot way up. I may be seeing some of you next year!

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Excellence = a Habit
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Excellence = a Habit » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:10 am

zardoz wrote:This slideshow (http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/Documents/housingpage.html) has a bunch of pictures of the inside of the Lawyers Club and its rooms. Most of the pictures are pretty representative, except the rooms are way cleaner than usual.


Thank you! That slide show was really helpful. I wasn't even considering the LC originally, but now I am pretty much completely sold. If only my boyfriend will take our cat with him wherever he goes to school.

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applepiecrust
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby applepiecrust » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:45 pm

This might have already been asked, but:
1. Is it possible to work part time (~10 hours) during 1L or is that asking for way too much?
2. Are there on-campus non-work study part time jobs available to law students? If yes, how does one about finding them/applying to them?

03121202698008
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:33 pm

applepiecrust wrote:This might have already been asked, but:
1. Is it possible to work part time (~10 hours) during 1L or is that asking for way too much?
2. Are there on-campus non-work study part time jobs available to law students? If yes, how does one about finding them/applying to them?


1. No working is not feasible. While you could probably pull it off the first half of the semester you'd never be able to find 10 hours while outlining and preparing for finals.

2. Every now and then they advertise jobs for the library but mostly the 2Ls take them. Westlaw/Lexis/BarBri also employe student reps but again, 2Ls. No one has time 1L year.

pulandasu
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby pulandasu » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:29 pm

Hi, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the interesting and insightful answers!

I'm a 0L with a question.

Joint-degree program
1) Do you know people who are doing joint-degree programs with the law school? especially those with a program outside of UMich (i.e. MBA at UCLA)

2) Do you know what the Michigan law policy on or attitude towards doing a joint-degree program with an institution that is not Michigan-affiliated? I have acceptance from a good MBA program - the school is very lenient/flexible towards doing a JD/MBA program with any law school as long as law school allows that (and I have heard people at the MBA program who did create a JD/MBA joint-degree program with other law schools)

Thanks in advance!




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