Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions Forum

[LeeAllen]

^Same here.

I've made the first deposit but I'm planning on the retake in June. If I don't get more scholly $ I might withdraw and wait until the next cycle.

[tinyapplicant]

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

[scaliaantics]

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Sometimes you'll get an email saying 1ls can sign up for a journal. For the love of god, do not do it. So, in short, yes, you can sign up for a very select few journals as a 1L. You really really really shouldn't do it.

[tinyapplicant]

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Why not?

[UnamSanctam]

Because journal pays off mostly in two scenarios: (1) OCI and (2) applying for federal clerkships (to some lesser degree, it pays off for any job in the same way, but those are your voluminous application moments). Firms and judges both want to be able to check the box that says you were on journal, and if you're not you had better have great compensatory things on your resume to mitigate the damage it does. But you'll know whether you're on journal as a 2L by the time you do OCI and apply for federal clerkships. And since all they care about is checking that box, there's no reason to burden yourself with the extra work that 1L journal requires.

[Decisions Decisions]

I searched through this thread a bit before posting, but didn't really find what I was looking for.

Will be a 1L in the fall and I'm trying to get a sense for housing. The Lawyers club seems extremely convenient but I really wanted daily access to a kitchen. I've heard there is a kitchen at the lawyers club for student use though. Is using this kitchen for breakfast every morning doable?

If not, I definitely don't mind living a little further away from campus so long as I can catch a bus easily enough. If I'm looking for an inexpensive Studio/1BR apartment with a kitchen, either within walking distance to the law school or close to a bus line, where should I start?

[NutellaDipity]

could someone help me figure out where my dorm room assignment physically is? I will PM with the room #, just want to have an idea about where it is!

[AreJay711]

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Why not?

It's just a lot of work. You learn a lot about the bluebook which is good, but there's no rush. That time would be better used in just about any other way.

[DaftAndDirect]

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Are there any journals 1Ls can join?

Why not?

It's just a lot of work. You learn a lot about the bluebook which is good, but there's no rush. That time would be better used in just about any other way.

Yea. On like...hookers and blow.

[gnuwheels]

Hopefully some older students will chime in, as I'm just a 1L and haven't gone through OCI, but I will offer my experience. For 1L summer jobs it has been incredibly easy. I know several people that got firm jobs or corporate jobs of some kind, others government or public interest jobs, and the rest judicial internships. Everyone I know has a job, and it seems like they are relatively good jobs. Also from what I have heard about OCI it seems like things have been really just getting better and better over the past couple years, since the slow years around 2009 and after, and the people I have talked to have nothing but positive things to say. I have also had a good deal of communication with the clerkship office lately as its something I am considering and it seems like Michigan does really well placing students and judges look very favorably on Michigan students - as much so, if not more so, than peer schools. I'm not sure what the data shows, or why it shows a decline in BL/FC, but I would assume it is completely self selected.

I hope this is helpful. I know it is entirely based on my anecdotal evidence so take it for what its worth. But I do feel pretty confident in saying that if BL/FC is your goal Michigan is a great place to be. Even relatively, I think the reputation of Michigan among firms and judges "out performs" its peer schools. There's also possibly even more of an advantage if less of your classmates are looking for those same types of jobs.

2L. 80% + of my friends who wanted BigLaw got BigLaw at OCI. 100% of my friends who wanted BigLaw and who are not socially awkward/immature got a job at OCI. Anecdotal evidence suggest the smaller class size is helping. Also Harbaugh.

Graduating 3L here. Do not listen to this. This is just wrong. It basically shakes down like this. Big law is a coin flip at median. If you're above median, you're probably fine if you bid New York (and definitely fine if you're in the top third). If you're below median, you're probably screwed. If you're median, its a coin flip. That is not good.

Most people with firm jobs talk about them. Most people that struck out transition into PI pretty quickly and act like they didn't want biglaw. The school does a decent job (surprisingly) at putting people into state court clerkships and convincing them that these things are prestigious and highly valuable. It also does a decent job at funding 3Ls who are jobless for a year. But let me be clear: there are a lot of jobless 3Ls. A lot. I'd say at least 10% of the class, if not more. Couple that with the people taking state clerkships because they've been duped into thinking that they are the answer to everything, and you're looking at close to 17-20% of the class taking jobs that they not only didn't bank on coming into law school, but jobs that many of them would have considered a failure coming in.

Getting a firm job out of Michigan is not easy. Its not impossible. But its not easy. I would be very very very wary of coming here if you have an offer with similar money at UVA or Duke or Penn. And I say this as a graduating 3L who is going to a v10 firm and had 10+ offers. For the people at the bottom of the curve, it is not good. There are way more of them than you think there are and they are struggling. The sunshine pumping by Michigan students is just that. The class of 2014 supposedly had a better OCI than my class did. That's what OCP told people after our OCI was over. The class of 2014's numbers were not good. Maybe 2016 did better than we did. Maybe they didn't. I don't know. Either way, you're looking at a trend that at the best looks like this: Bad Bad Bad Okay Mediocre Okay. Michigan doesn't place better than peer schools at Federal Clerkships. Michigan doesn't place better than peer schools at Big Law. I promise you this is not self selection. Do not let people with anecdotal evidence convince you otherwise.

1L summer jobs are just not the same as 2L oci jobs. Hell they aren't even the same as 2L public interest jobs. The 3L hiring market is not good and coming in as an incoming 1L, you're essentially a coin flip away from a pretty bad place. If you're willing to hedge your career on a coin filp, come to Michigan. But please please do so knowing that there is a really good chance you walk away a loser.

Other Michigan students are laughing at the posts made above starting here: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p8566469

Another graduating 3L here. I agree. I have more than a handful of friends (some of whom were well above median) who completely struck out. This worst part is that the school totally abandons these people. They pretend like everyone is getting Wachtell and 9th circuit clerkships and sweep the people who struck out under the rug and say "tough luck". The amount of resources and favors the school gives to those at the top of the class is disgusting given the lack thereof given to the ones who are struggling and really need it.

Also coming from someone who has a biglaw job.

[bananatopia]

deleted

[sneezus]

When did Michigan first cut the class size? Many have said (and I find it persuasive) that this is more a problem of inflated class size than anything else. If this is true, wouldn't we expect things to improve numbers-wise once these smaller classes pass through OCI and graduate?

When does that first smaller class size graduate?

[UnamSanctam]

When did Michigan first cut the class size? Many have said (and I find it persuasive) that this is more a problem of inflated class size than anything else. If this is true, wouldn't we expect things to improve numbers-wise once these smaller classes pass through OCI and graduate?

When does that first smaller class size graduate?

Smaller class size + the grade curve inflation that was put in place last year will have some positive effects, but there's still a curve.

[sneezus]

When did Michigan first cut the class size? Many have said (and I find it persuasive) that this is more a problem of inflated class size than anything else. If this is true, wouldn't we expect things to improve numbers-wise once these smaller classes pass through OCI and graduate?

When does that first smaller class size graduate?

Smaller class size + the grade curve inflation that was put in place last year will have some positive effects, but there's still a curve.

sorry, really ignorant on the grade curve inflation thing. did they establish a higher default median on the curve or something? if you could explain this a bit, i would really appreciate it.

[UnamSanctam]

When did Michigan first cut the class size? Many have said (and I find it persuasive) that this is more a problem of inflated class size than anything else. If this is true, wouldn't we expect things to improve numbers-wise once these smaller classes pass through OCI and graduate?

When does that first smaller class size graduate?

Smaller class size + the grade curve inflation that was put in place last year will have some positive effects, but there's still a curve.

sorry, really ignorant on the grade curve inflation thing. did they establish a higher default median on the curve or something? if you could explain this a bit, i would really appreciate it.

Sure. Everything from Winter 2013 and before was graded with a mean target ~3.2. Everything after that (all 1Ls this year and thereafter) has a mean target of a little over 3.3. At the same time, they tightened up the distribution. For example, an exam scoring either a B or B+ used to be representative of about 55% of exams, whereas now 60% of grades for an exam will fall in that range. Those in the C or C+ range used to account for ~10% of exams, whereas now B- and below is approximately bottom 10%, with the excess being used to bolster the A- range. It's a way to inflate grades while at the same time concentrating distribution into the middle of the pack. That's a good change unless you were already enrolled when the new curve was instituted and were already situated in a certain way, but that doesn't apply to you, since you aren't there yet.

[krads153]

I can't be the only one that looks at Michigan's employment numbers and thinks 9.3% Federal Clerkships, 42.6% Large Firms, and ≈18% jobs that I would personally prefer to most biglaw jobs (mostly made up of gov/p.i., but also a non-trivial percentage of the "non-existent" midlaw/80k-120k paying small firm jobs). That makes for ≈70% outcomes that are at least as desirable to me as a typical biglaw position, compared to ≈72% for Cornell using the same cutoff criteria. If you tell me that the ≈18% of other outcomes aren't the result of self selection and that Michigan students are really backing into these jobs, then my reaction is that Michigan is even more valuable than I had previously thought. It either is self selection leading to these outcomes, or it isn't. If it is, then Michigan is giving its students almost the exact same chance as it's peers at getting a large firm job in New York, if that's what they really want. If it isn't self selection, then Michigan gives its students a significantly worse shot at New York biglaw, but a significantly better shot at outcomes that a large fraction of prospective law students would probably prefer if they really thought about it. The worst you can say about Michigan is that it has a somewhat different market niche than its peers. There was a thread in the choosing forum where op's stated preferences were for p.i./gov, but he'd be okay with biglaw if he had to do it. TLSers said that most students who start out pursuing public interest jobs end up switching to biglaw because that's where the jobs are. But if that's really your preference, you obviously shouldn't count public interest jobs or midlaw jobs as failures. You should just be realistic about your chances of getting various jobs and make peace with the fact that being a well paid drone in a mega-firm is the modal outcome. But because a lot of students have career preferences similar to this, there really isn't a way to interpret the available placement information to conclude that Michigan is significantly less valuable than its peer schools for all, or almost all, prospective law students.

I graduated a few years ago, but when I was there like a third of the people I knew didn't have any loans....and many of these people (including most of the Darrow recipients) didn't bother doing OCI/biglaw. There are A LOT of rich kids at Michigan/people with full schollies who purposely go into law school to do PI or whatever. And fwiw, a lot of the older non-trads (middle aged types) never do OCI because they don't want to (and in my experience the non-trads tend to have the highest grades and many graduate magna cum laude). Michigan also has a decent number of double degree students (MA/JD or PhD/JD types). Not sure if that's true at other schools.

I think you guys are being super nitpicky and over analyzing numbers. Percentage outcomes are close enough if you look at the past few years data among the bottom half of the T-14. Last year Duke placed like 2% more into biglaw/clerkships than Michigan....this year it was more. And so what?

And yes Michigan cut its class size last year and improved the grade curve, so that should help if you want biglaw. But honestly, if they don't have any loans (like 1/3 of the Michigan class doesn't - someone posted the stats on this website in another thread), they wouldn't likely do OCI in the first place.

[KingsleyZissou]

Anyone who wants it just pm me. I'll give you a Google doc link. There might be some hot new outline but between this and the Friedenthal hornbook you should have more civ pro than you could ever want. The outline is basically everything Cooper talks about, in the order he discusses it. You'll have FYI leaders who should circulate some outlines too.

Personally, I would never make an outline this long --it is more a compilation of notes than an actual outline -- but it's a helpful study aid.

I got an A in Cooper's and I have a different opinion. I had that "outline," which is really more like a transcription. I found it and the Friedenthal hornbook to be giant wastes of time.

For whatever topic Cooper planned to cover in a week, I would listen to the relevant portions the weekend before using these two audio supplements:

http://www.amazon.com/Sum-Substance-Aud ... 466&sr=1-7

and

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-Procedure-S ... 569&sr=1-8

Hearing someone else explain the black letter law before class helped me get a lot out of Cooper's nebulous lectures. So I took notes from the audio CDs then spent class tweaking those notes, rephrasing things in Cooper's own words. After the first week I didn't touch the casebook, rather I would a bring a commercial brief to class and quickly scan the case while he lectured. Since the CDs are a few years old, this allowed me to account for any recent developments in the law (only two, IIRC). At the end of the week I did the relevant section from the E&E to drill in my understanding and make any adjustment to my outline (I didn't take notes, just put things directly into an outline, making sure to add less than 1/2 page per class).

For any topics Cooper covered with particular depth, I consulted this:

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Civi ... dure+freer

, which is much better for your purposes than the Friedenthal hornbook.

Halfway through the semester I started turning my notes into flashcards since Cooper's final is closed book, but I think that was unnecessary. Rather, use these commercial flashcards; I wish I had known about these before I made my own:

http://www.amazon.com/Law-Flash-Cards-C ... in+a+flash

At the halfway point I also started working through his practice tests (there are dozens). He'll give you a practice problem 2/3 through the semester and give you feedback on your answer. I think it's important to have done a few questions yourself before taking his practice problem.

Generally, people seem mystified by Cooper's lectures and his final exam. His lectures are very helpful if you go to class well prepared (i.e., supplements) and force yourself to listen. His final exam is a straightforward issue spotter; you don't need to do anything fancy to get an A. His exams have been the same for thirty years and they're all available. You'll be well prepared if you spend your time w/ supplements and practice problems instead or briefing from the casebook, wading through 100+ page outlines, and a hornbook which goes into more depth than any Cooper-student needs.

Is this the credited response? Anyone else who did well in Cooper's class have different recommendations?

[kitkat91]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I am a football newb.

Are football tickets available individually or do you have to buy season tickets?

As a secondary question, is it the norm for law students to go to the games every week/have season tickets? I went to an UG with no football, so I know nothing about how college football works and am trying figure whether it is worth it for me to buy season tickets. If it's a big part of the social scene and most people are going every week, it would probably be worth it to me. Otherwise, probably not since I'm not super into football for football's sake (more for the camaraderie of watching with friends).

[AreJay711]

Is this the credited response? Anyone else who did well in Cooper's class have different recommendations?

I did pretty well. It's different strokes for different folks. Law school exams are so much about how fast you think / can get words on a page and your ability to see quirks in a question under time pressure that I doubt extra study helps much. Everyone knows the law, and it's honestly not that complicated.

[Backpacker]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I am a football newb.

Are football tickets available individually or do you have to buy season tickets?

As a secondary question, is it the norm for law students to go to the games every week/have season tickets? I went to an UG with no football, so I know nothing about how college football works and am trying figure whether it is worth it for me to buy season tickets. If it's a big part of the social scene and most people are going every week, it would probably be worth it to me. Otherwise, probably not since I'm not super into football for football's sake (more for the camaraderie of watching with friends).

Its very hard to ignore the football games on game day. Most people go to the game, or at least tailgate. You can always find tickets on stubhub for the non-student section seating. You can also find tickets in the student section - just watch the listserv in the weeks or so leading up to the game. I believe the season ticket deadline has passed for 2015, but in the future (if you are interested in making some money) you should get season tickets and then sell the games you don't go to - you'll make your money back, and then some. You can also buy student season ticket packages in a group (so you and your friends can have assigned seats w/ each other). http://www.mgoblue.com/tickets/fbl-inde ... 1433812018.

[rjaymac]

How depressing is the law student section at football games?

[LeeAllen]

Where do the law students even sit? Do we get good seats in the student section or what?

[Backpacker]

.

[mister logical]

which of the journals is the next best after law review?

[BuckinghamB]

which of the journals is the next best after law review?

they're all "not law review" as far as interviewers are concerned. just go with one that you might think will interest you, or will show indications you're interested in a particular practice group (like the PE/venture capital journal for transactional jobs).