Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions Forum

[Pathika]

I'm a current summer starter and have a quick question for those 2Ls and 3Ls out there... I spend a lot of time at school studying and I see nothing but recent grads studying for the Bar from dusk 'til dawn. Is the Bar exam that ridiculously difficult and in-depth that it requires 50+ hours a week of studying for 2 months, or are the people I am seeing just overly studious?

[FlightoftheEarls]

I'm a current summer starter and have a quick question for those 2Ls and 3Ls out there... I spend a lot of time at school studying and I see nothing but recent grads studying for the Bar from dusk 'til dawn. Is the Bar exam that ridiculously difficult and in-depth that it requires 50+ hours a week of studying for 2 months, or are the people I am seeing just overly studious?

I'm one of them, and it's unfortunately pretty difficult. The content that we're learning isn't quite as intensive as it is for most courses, although I would say I know as much or more about subjects like contracts or NY Practice (which is basically civil procedure) as I did going into my 1L exam now. With other subjects, like commercial paper or conflict of laws, we fortunately have to learn much less. Nevertheless, there are over 20 different subjects in New York that we have to know by memory, many of which we have never taken (Wills! Goddamn. you. wills.), and the test is in about 2 1/2 weeks. Generally speaking, the pass rate for NY is high 85% total, and 95% of Michigan students pass it. But nobody wants to be in that bottom section, and just the sheer volume of material manages to be rather intimidating. You'll get to experience it soon enough, though.

As a short answer - yes it's quite hard, but it's a marathon-esque style of memorization rather than the type of single-subject fine tuning you'll do for other courses.

[Pathika]

I'm a current summer starter and have a quick question for those 2Ls and 3Ls out there... I spend a lot of time at school studying and I see nothing but recent grads studying for the Bar from dusk 'til dawn. Is the Bar exam that ridiculously difficult and in-depth that it requires 50+ hours a week of studying for 2 months, or are the people I am seeing just overly studious?

I'm one of them, and it's unfortunately pretty difficult. The content that we're learning isn't quite as intensive as it is for most courses, although I would say I know as much or more about subjects like contracts or NY Practice (which is basically civil procedure) as I did going into my 1L exam now. With other subjects, like commercial paper or conflict of laws, we fortunately have to learn much less. Nevertheless, there are over 20 different subjects in New York that we have to know by memory, many of which we have never taken (Wills! Goddamn. you. wills.), and the test is in about 2 1/2 weeks. Generally speaking, the pass rate for NY is high 85% total, and 95% of Michigan students pass it. But nobody wants to be in that bottom section, and just the sheer volume of material manages to be rather intimidating. You'll get to experience it soon enough, though.

As a short answer - yes it's quite hard, but it's a marathon-esque style of memorization rather than the type of single-subject fine tuning you'll do for other courses.

Thank you so much for the response and good luck on the exam!

[smoneill88]

Finalizing my loans and just wanted an opinion on private vs. gradplus. My bank is offering a variable private loan for as low as 4.75%, and expressly stated that rates are held until 2014. Their fixed rate is at 7.8% at the moment, too. Also, I'd be able to switch from variable to fixed (if variable rates rise and fixed ends up being lower) after graduation with their 'consolidation' program (which comes with no penalties or fees). With gradplus at 7.9%, it sounds like this variable 4.75% rate is worth it. And I can defer for up to 5 years (though I only plan to defer for 3). Any thoughts or disadvantages of private loans that I don't know?

Thanks
S

Private loans aren't eligible for LRAP, while gradplus are.

Would you consider this reason enough to accept the higher interest of the gradplus? My goal is biglaw, not really looking into public interest or anything that you would consider 'lower income' following law school.

[descartesb4thehorse]

Finalizing my loans and just wanted an opinion on private vs. gradplus. My bank is offering a variable private loan for as low as 4.75%, and expressly stated that rates are held until 2014. Their fixed rate is at 7.8% at the moment, too. Also, I'd be able to switch from variable to fixed (if variable rates rise and fixed ends up being lower) after graduation with their 'consolidation' program (which comes with no penalties or fees). With gradplus at 7.9%, it sounds like this variable 4.75% rate is worth it. And I can defer for up to 5 years (though I only plan to defer for 3). Any thoughts or disadvantages of private loans that I don't know?

Thanks
S

Private loans aren't eligible for LRAP, while gradplus are.

Would you consider this reason enough to accept the higher interest of the gradplus? My goal is biglaw, not really looking into public interest or anything that you would consider 'lower income' following law school.

You feelin' lucky?

[smoneill88]

Finalizing my loans and just wanted an opinion on private vs. gradplus. My bank is offering a variable private loan for as low as 4.75%, and expressly stated that rates are held until 2014. Their fixed rate is at 7.8% at the moment, too. Also, I'd be able to switch from variable to fixed (if variable rates rise and fixed ends up being lower) after graduation with their 'consolidation' program (which comes with no penalties or fees). With gradplus at 7.9%, it sounds like this variable 4.75% rate is worth it. And I can defer for up to 5 years (though I only plan to defer for 3). Any thoughts or disadvantages of private loans that I don't know?

Thanks
S

Private loans aren't eligible for LRAP, while gradplus are.

Would you consider this reason enough to accept the higher interest of the gradplus? My goal is biglaw, not really looking into public interest or anything that you would consider 'lower income' following law school.

You feelin' lucky?

--ImageRemoved-- GIFSoup

Thanks Clint I feel confident that I can succeed in law school, the risk of course being whether I in fact do or not. I'm gonna sleep on it tonight. Technically the lower interest (if it stays low, COME ONE PRIME!!!!) could save me thousands, so it seems like a potentially worthwhile risk (since I do believe in myself and my abilities).

[buckilaw]

Finalizing my loans and just wanted an opinion on private vs. gradplus. My bank is offering a variable private loan for as low as 4.75%, and expressly stated that rates are held until 2014. Their fixed rate is at 7.8% at the moment, too. Also, I'd be able to switch from variable to fixed (if variable rates rise and fixed ends up being lower) after graduation with their 'consolidation' program (which comes with no penalties or fees). With gradplus at 7.9%, it sounds like this variable 4.75% rate is worth it. And I can defer for up to 5 years (though I only plan to defer for 3). Any thoughts or disadvantages of private loans that I don't know?

Thanks
S

Private loans aren't eligible for LRAP, while gradplus are.

Would you consider this reason enough to accept the higher interest of the gradplus? My goal is biglaw, not really looking into public interest or anything that you would consider 'lower income' following law school.

1L year I would definitely take grad plus loans; the lower interest rate of private loans pales in comparison to the risk of not being eligible for LRAP should you elect to do public interest work, be it out of choice or necessity. 2L you might consider private loans if you are fairly sure to land a biglaw job (lol). And 3L year you should have a very good idea whether you will be doing public interest work, so the choice becomes much easier during 3L.

[thelaststraw05]

I feel confident that I can succeed in law school, the risk of course being whether I in fact do or not. I'm gonna sleep on it tonight. Technically the lower interest (if it stays low, COME ONE PRIME!!!!) could save me thousands, so it seems like a potentially worthwhile risk (since I do believe in myself and my abilities).

Also, this cocky attitude is incredibly naive. Sheer hard work is not enough to guarantee success in law school. Being on scholarship doesn't mean you're smarter than anyone else. There is no way to predict who will be at the top of the class at the end of 1L and who won't. A top law school is unlike anything else you've experienced in your life. There are always people smarter than you in the room. You have about a 50% chance of being above median and a 50% chance of being below median.

You have very little control over where you'll end up on the curve. So sure, go with private loans. If you end up below median and unable to qualify for LRAP or IBR, I don't think any of us will say I told you so. Remember, student loans are not even dischargeable in bankruptcy. If you mess up and choose the private loans and don't get that high paying job you will be in debt for the rest of your life.

[smoneill88]

I feel confident that I can succeed in law school, the risk of course being whether I in fact do or not. I'm gonna sleep on it tonight. Technically the lower interest (if it stays low, COME ONE PRIME!!!!) could save me thousands, so it seems like a potentially worthwhile risk (since I do believe in myself and my abilities).

Also, this cocky attitude is incredibly naive. Sheer hard work is not enough to guarantee success in law school. Being on scholarship doesn't mean you're smarter than anyone else. There is no way to predict who will be at the top of the class at the end of 1L and who won't. A top law school is unlike anything else you've experienced in your life. There are always people smarter than you in the room. You have about a 50% chance of being above median and a 50% chance of being below median.

You have very little control over where you'll end up on the curve. So sure, go with private loans. If you end up below median and unable to qualify for LRAP or IBR, I don't think any of us will say I told you so. Remember, student loans are not even dischargeable in bankruptcy. If you mess up and choose the private loans and don't get that high paying job you will be in debt for the rest of your life.

Sorry that you confused my confidence with cockiness. I don't have the assumption that I'll be some sort of 'all star stud' in law school. As I said, I'm simply confident in my abilities and dedication to the task at hand.

I greatly appreciate the advice, the idea of splitting 1L and 2L loans public/private seems like a good idea.

[thelaststraw05]

Sorry that you confused my confidence with cockiness. I don't have the assumption that I'll be some sort of 'all star stud' in law school. As I said, I'm simply confident in my abilities and dedication to the task at hand.

I greatly appreciate the advice, the idea of splitting 1L and 2L loans public/private seems like a good idea.

I'm sorry, I'm usually not confrontational, but I REALLY don't want to see you screw yourself by going with private loans.

Look, last year (and we are all hopeful this is getting better) about 45% of the graduating class (class of '11) got jobs with firms. Though according to the data the top 50% (at least) of those folks were earning market ($160,000) the average reported salary was $146,000. That means that some folks of that 45% were receiving substantially less than market.

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

I call it cockiness because less than half of last years graduating class had a job in big law. You said that the only thing you were interested in out of law school was big law. Nobody here is expecting to be below median. Everyone came into law school confident in their abilities and dedication to the task at hand. It isn't simply confidence to gamble on private loans when your future is at stake. It is reckless.

Cockiness is a decent synonym for reckless confidence.

[mblueyahoo!]

Sorry that you confused my confidence with cockiness. I don't have the assumption that I'll be some sort of 'all star stud' in law school. As I said, I'm simply confident in my abilities and dedication to the task at hand.

I greatly appreciate the advice, the idea of splitting 1L and 2L loans public/private seems like a good idea.

I'm sorry, I'm usually not confrontational, but I REALLY don't want to see you screw yourself by going with private loans.

Look, last year (and we are all hopeful this is getting better) about 45% of the graduating class (class of '11) got jobs with firms. Though according to the data the top 50% (at least) of those folks were earning market ($160,000) the average reported salary was $146,000. That means that some folks of that 45% were receiving substantially less than market.

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

I call it cockiness because less than half of last years graduating class had a job in big law. You said that the only thing you were interested in out of law school was big law. Nobody here is expecting to be below median. Everyone came into law school confident in their abilities and dedication to the task at hand. It isn't simply confidence to gamble on private loans when your future is at stake. It is reckless.

Cockiness is a decent synonym for reckless confidence.

don't even bother brohan. let the random grade generator curve stomp this soon to be 1L's ego.

as for setting yourself up for a financial mess-- don't shoot yourself in the face before you even set foot in hutchins hall. if you're confident that you'll get the biglaw jerb, just take the public IBR/LRAP safety net money and pay off the difference between the two with a fraction of that fat paycheck. You never know, you could be the class of 2015's goat herder.

[lawyergirl47]

has anyone taken Corporate Criminality with Hurley? I'm trying to see what he's like...

alternatively, can someone PM me the link to the professor rating website? I can't find it anywhere!

Thanks!

[gnuwheels]

I'm starting in the fall and I guess some of the posts in here seem slightly inconsistent with what the current students I talked to at ASW were saying. So i'm just wondering, if only 45% of the class are able to get a firm job, how much of the other 55% weren't trying? When I spoke to current students I was told "pretty much everyone got what they wanted employment-wise". Is that a) a bunch of crap they're told to tell prospective students, b) true, meaning that there is a huge amount of the class going for PI or government or other, or c) other.

I know that the people I spoke to were not c/o 2011, but I can't imagine that things have gotten THAT much better. Also, and maybe i'm reading too much into this, but from the posts here it seems like people still to think that currents students' expectations should be based on what is illustrated in the 2011 numbers. That is, incoming students' likelihood of getting a firm job out of michigan is most certainly below 50%.

[The Duck]

I'm starting in the fall and I guess some of the posts in here seem slightly inconsistent with what the current students I talked to at ASW were saying. So i'm just wondering, if only 45% of the class are able to get a firm job, how much of the other 55% weren't trying? When I spoke to current students I was told "pretty much everyone got what they wanted employment-wise". Is that a) a bunch of crap they're told to tell prospective students, b) true, meaning that there is a huge amount of the class going for PI or government or other, or c) other.

I know that the people I spoke to were not c/o 2011, but I can't imagine that things have gotten THAT much better. Also, and maybe i'm reading too much into this, but from the posts here it seems like people still to think that currents students' expectations should be based on what is illustrated in the 2011 numbers. That is, incoming students' likelihood of getting a firm job out of michigan is most certainly below 50%.

The class of 2011 went through OCI during 2009, which was by far the worst year for hiring. Numbers for 2012 should be better. Numbers for 2013 should be better stil. Everyone I know ended up with something for their 2L summer. I'd say 90% of those I know who wanted BigLaw got it. The 10% represent those that are socially awkward or with decently sub-median GPAs (who expected to strike out and had already targeted secondary markets).

I'm sure seem people I don't know bid horribly and struck out. E.g. If you are median or below, don't bid DC. If you've never been to California, don't bid San Francisco.

It's pretty hard to get PI nowadays without a PI background, so most of those people would have targeted PI and not done OCI or mostly blown it off. Also, that 45% doesn't include people clerking who surely could have gone into private practice if the got a clerkship. Government is also pretty hard to get and most of those people could have had some kind of firm job. Add those back in and you're at 68.6%, without factoring in PI self-selection. If 40 of the 47 really targeted PI, you're at 79%. It's never a sure thing but it isn't a coin toss either.

I think the post above was meant to illustrate that it is stupid to be cocky about it. But our numbers aren't any worse than peer schools.

[thelaststraw05]

I'm starting in the fall and I guess some of the posts in here seem slightly inconsistent with what the current students I talked to at ASW were saying. So i'm just wondering, if only 45% of the class are able to get a firm job, how much of the other 55% weren't trying? When I spoke to current students I was told "pretty much everyone got what they wanted employment-wise". Is that a) a bunch of crap they're told to tell prospective students, b) true, meaning that there is a huge amount of the class going for PI or government or other, or c) other.

I know that the people I spoke to were not c/o 2011, but I can't imagine that things have gotten THAT much better. Also, and maybe i'm reading too much into this, but from the posts here it seems like people still to think that currents students' expectations should be based on what is illustrated in the 2011 numbers. That is, incoming students' likelihood of getting a firm job out of michigan is most certainly below 50%.

. . .

I think the post above was meant to illustrate that it is stupid to be cocky about it. But our numbers aren't any worse than peer schools.

I was trying to illustrate that it is supremely dumb to be cocky about it. Most people I know are getting what they want, but I also know that everyone comes in expecting to be above median. 50% of the class is going to end up below median.

There are things you can do to enhance your chances if that is you, but you shouldn't plan your finances in such a way that you will be screwed if you don't end up above median with a market paying firm job.

My sense is that the numbers should be drastically better over the next couple of years.

[MissLucky]

has anyone taken Corporate Criminality with Hurley? I'm trying to see what he's like...
!

interested in this as well


also, how many rounds of Campbell Moot Court do you have to get through to at least place as a quarterfinalist? thanks!

[lawyergirl47]

no info on Hurley, but the curve looks fairly generous...

[MissLucky]

no info on Hurley, but the curve looks fairly generous...

yeah but the class this year is much larger, making it mandatorily curved, no?

[lawyergirl47]

no info on Hurley, but the curve looks fairly generous...

yeah but the class this year is much larger, making it mandatorily curved, no?

Good spot, MissLucky. I may have bitten off more than I can chew in signing up for this. Let me know if you hear anything else...

[aladdinismyprince]

Do any of the 1L professors give multiple choice exams? Or are all the exams the more traditional hypothetical, issue-spotting essay exams?

[buckilaw]

Do any of the 1L professors give multiple choice exams? Or are all the exams the more traditional hypothetical, issue-spotting essay exams?

Professor Krier gives a multiple choice property exam. I think a few other professors use some multiple choice questions on their exams, but still include issue spotters. Typically you will have a traditional issue spotter rather than multiple choice exams.

[mblueyahoo!]

Do any of the 1L professors give multiple choice exams? Or are all the exams the more traditional hypothetical, issue-spotting essay exams?

Professor Krier gives a multiple choice property exam. I think a few other professors use some multiple choice questions on their exams, but still include issue spotters. Typically you will have a traditional issue spotter rather than multiple choice exams.

Two of my 1L classes had multiple choice exams form a good chunk of the overall grade and another with two mini multiple choice quizzes that made up something like 10 percent. I could be wrong on the percentage for the last one.

[clint4law]

So I got the LR ding yesterday and was offered a position with two secondary journals. Can someone rank the "prestige" factor of our journals?

[AreJay711]

So I got the LR ding yesterday and was offered a position with two secondary journals. Can someone rank the "prestige" factor of our journals?

They are all the same. Some people say that Law Reform is a bit more prestigious but most say that no one outside of academia knows that and employers won't consider that a plus over other journals. Law Reform is also the most work. I guess it might be worth it if you want every edge you can get though.

[clint4law]

So I got the LR ding yesterday and was offered a position with two secondary journals. Can someone rank the "prestige" factor of our journals?

They are all the same. Some people say that Law Reform is a bit more prestigious but most say that no one outside of academia knows that and employers won't consider that a plus over other journals. Law Reform is also the most work. I guess it might be worth it if you want every edge you can get though.

Thanks....I got an offer from Law Reform and MJIL. Which would you pick?