Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
EarlyDecision2020
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby EarlyDecision2020 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:02 pm

I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?

Anon.y.mousse.
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:31 pm

EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?


I mean 37 went into government and 29 went into public interest (full time, most long-term but some short-term). In a class of 314, that's another 20 something percent of graduates who likely could have gotten big law if those are competitive gov/PI jobs.

(sorry also a 0L)

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Li'l Sebastian
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Li'l Sebastian » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:19 am

Everybody Apply for the MAP program btw!

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Li'l Sebastian
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Li'l Sebastian » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:25 am

mod edit: I'm told that this is confidential material the Michigan doesn't allow to circulate, so I've deleted it.

californiauser
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby californiauser » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:32 am

EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?


FYI, 100+ attorney firm is a better metric for big law than 500+. There are plenty of market paying firms that don't have 500 total attorneys. The 100+ attorney jobs number is 50.8%.

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Sarastro
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Sarastro » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:12 pm

Li'l Sebastian wrote:Everybody Apply for the MAP program btw!

Got any info? Google brings up something about the MBA program.

LawTweet
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby LawTweet » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Sarastro wrote:
Li'l Sebastian wrote:Everybody Apply for the MAP program btw!

Got any info? Google brings up something about the MBA program.


I believe it's a pre-orientation program. I think MAP is short for Michigan Access Program. It's come highly recommended.

https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstuden ... tsvcs.aspx

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rationalhound
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby rationalhound » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:43 pm

EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?



I got nothing else to do today, let's break it down. LST link: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/michigan/jobs/

  • 197 took firm jobs
    • 180 of those were with large firms, i.e. BigLaw.
    • 11 were with small firms, which are not bigalw
    • 3 were staff attorney positions, which are not biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 59 took clerkships
    • 36 were federal clerkships, and count as biglaw equivalent
    • 23 were local or 'other.' I don't know what kind of outcomes local clerks have. For the sake of pessimism, these jobs are not biglaw equivalent
  • 15 took business jobs
    • 6 jobs required bar passage. I'm willing to call these biglaw equivalent. Most of us who land biglaw jobs will end up here eventually.
    • 7 were JD advantage. Not biglaw equivalent
    • 2 were 'professional' jobs. Also not biglaw equivalent.
  • 37 took government jobs
    • 32 required bar passage. These are unknown without more information. Could be DOJ honors or similar jobs with other agencies, JAG, state agency jobs, congressional committee staffers, EOP jobs, state DA and PD jobs, the list goes on. I'll count these cause being a government lawyer sounds a-okay to me, what with the job security and all.
    • 5 were unknown. Again, hard to say. Could be congressional staffers or similar political jobs, could be state, county, or city nonlawyer jobs. Since I was generous with bar passage required government jobs, I'll be pessimistic here. These are not biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 2 took jobs in education
    • 1 job required bar passage. Probably a law professor? I'll count it.
    • 1 did not. No bar passage = not a lawyer = not a biglaw equivalent.
  • 34 took public interest jobs.
    • 31 required bar passage. I'm not terribly familar with PI, but the consensus seems to be that these count count as biglaw equivalent.
    • 3 were JD advantage. See commentary for education jobs.
  • 14 unemployed


In total we have
  • 286, or 80.7% of the class of 2015 have biglaw or biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 68 do not.

To properly answer the your bolded question, only 216 only landed actual biglaw jobs or federal clerkships, 70 landed non-clerkship biglaw equivalent jobs and 68 did not land a biglaw equivalent job. So it's about 60/20/20 split between biglaw/equivalent/hopefully has minimal student loans


NERD EDIT:
While I was deciding where to apply, I did a lot of screwing around with LST data and pretty much ended up using two metrics as the best way to grade outcomes. First, 'quality outcomes' (QoC) which is the percent of students that ended up at large firms or in federal clerkships. These are the people that are going to be able to pay off six-figure student loan debts. Second, quality outcomes + PI, (QoC+PI) which is the percent of students that had quality outcomes added to the percent of students that landed PI jobs. While PI jobs aren't as good as biglaw jobs since you have to help people and can't afford models and bottles*, at least someone is paying off your student loans. If we rank the non-T6 T14 schools using 2015 data, we have:

QoC
  • Penn - 76.9
  • Duke - 74.7
  • UVA - 70.2
  • Northwestern - 69.5
  • Cornell - 66.6
  • Michigan - 61
  • Berkeley - 56.5
  • Georgetown (Though both UCLA and UT have better QoC scores) - 44.1

QoC+PI
  • Penn - 85
  • UVA - 81.9
  • Duke -79
  • Cornell - 78.6
  • Northwestern - 76.1
  • Berkeley - 75.6
  • Michigan - 73.7
  • Georgetown (Beating UCLA and UT) - 63.7

I'm not enough of a statistician to really know how much a difference 5% makes when that's only about 15 people, but it's safe to say Penn the best, Duke and UVA are above average, Georgetown is worse, and Berkeley, Michigan, Cornell and Northwestern are all about the same. It is unlikely you'll land a job at Duke you couldn't get at Michigan. Penn, maybe. Though really there'd need to be a big multi-year study to say for sure.


*This is a joke, on the off chance you couldn't tell

nyu2019maybeplease
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:12 pm

In a word: plenty.

EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:35 pm

Former summer starters: When did you/should we expect to get our schedule/section assignment?

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:40 pm

LawTweet wrote:
Sarastro wrote:
Li'l Sebastian wrote:Everybody Apply for the MAP program btw!

Got any info? Google brings up something about the MBA program.


I believe it's a pre-orientation program. I think MAP is short for Michigan Access Program. It's come highly recommended.

https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstuden ... tsvcs.aspx


Would I be right to assume that this is only something fall starters can do?

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deuceindc
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby deuceindc » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:32 pm

EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?


Michigan is well known to recruit a big public interest crew, so your conservative estimate is almost certainly too conservative. Anecdotally, I know two people who struck out at OCI (no idea what their grades were), but three who made Law Review while opting out of OCI/firms entirely (all have SSC/A.III clerkships lined up). Maybe not representative, but it's a data point.

Instead of asking the question you did (which will give you an answer tainted by things like bad bidding, bad interviewing, and not hustling outside of OCI), a better question is: Can I get BigLaw at median? And the answer to that question is almost certainly yes. You might have to hustle, and you might not get your first choice market, but you can probably get an AmLaw200 in NYC that pays market.

nyu2019maybeplease
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby nyu2019maybeplease » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:48 am

Ask admissions for sure but pretty sure it starts during summer starter finals period.

brinicolec wrote:
LawTweet wrote:
Sarastro wrote:
Li'l Sebastian wrote:Everybody Apply for the MAP program btw!

Got any info? Google brings up something about the MBA program.


I believe it's a pre-orientation program. I think MAP is short for Michigan Access Program. It's come highly recommended.

https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstuden ... tsvcs.aspx


Would I be right to assume that this is only something fall starters can do?

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Li'l Sebastian
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby Li'l Sebastian » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Theoretically you could do MAP, take Summer Finals, and just miss a portion of a day or two's events that week.

Also I apologize for wiki leaking the gpa job placement numbers. The email I screenshotted the numbers from had nothing in it about need to keep those figures private. Apologies.

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:40 pm

No A/C over the summer: Will it be too hot?

I'm not familiar with the weather during the summer. A sublet I'm looking at has no A/C but it's a pretty good price so I was just wondering if I'll get too hot with no A/C or if you all think no A/C in the summer is fine? I generally like my room being around 70 degrees and I'm not opposed to opening windows or something like that.

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blueapple
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby blueapple » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:22 am

brinicolec wrote:No A/C over the summer: Will it be too hot?

I'm not familiar with the weather during the summer. A sublet I'm looking at has no A/C but it's a pretty good price so I was just wondering if I'll get too hot with no A/C or if you all think no A/C in the summer is fine? I generally like my room being around 70 degrees and I'm not opposed to opening windows or something like that.


Yes, way too hot. Are you sure the sublet doesn't have a window unit? Most Ann Arbor apartments (unless it's a new building or a high rise) aren't going to have central A/C but they should have window units.

herecomesthesun
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby herecomesthesun » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:50 pm

I was a fall starter, so it started cooling off pretty quickly after I got here but the first few weeks were hell without AC. One of the girls i know got a window unit and it kept her entire room really cold very well. So I'm planning to get one of those for next year.

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:09 pm

blueapple wrote:
brinicolec wrote:No A/C over the summer: Will it be too hot?

I'm not familiar with the weather during the summer. A sublet I'm looking at has no A/C but it's a pretty good price so I was just wondering if I'll get too hot with no A/C or if you all think no A/C in the summer is fine? I generally like my room being around 70 degrees and I'm not opposed to opening windows or something like that.


Yes, way too hot. Are you sure the sublet doesn't have a window unit? Most Ann Arbor apartments (unless it's a new building or a high rise) aren't going to have central A/C but they should have window units.


No window unit! They told me in an email that they decided not to get one.

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blueapple
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby blueapple » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:13 pm

brinicolec wrote:
blueapple wrote:
brinicolec wrote:No A/C over the summer: Will it be too hot?

I'm not familiar with the weather during the summer. A sublet I'm looking at has no A/C but it's a pretty good price so I was just wondering if I'll get too hot with no A/C or if you all think no A/C in the summer is fine? I generally like my room being around 70 degrees and I'm not opposed to opening windows or something like that.


Yes, way too hot. Are you sure the sublet doesn't have a window unit? Most Ann Arbor apartments (unless it's a new building or a high rise) aren't going to have central A/C but they should have window units.


No window unit! They told me in an email that they decided not to get one.


Oh boy, that's terrible. I would definitely not take this sublet unless they're willing to buy a window unit. It's so easy to find a cheap sublet in AA in the summer so I would keep looking for one that includes a window unit. Has the school sent out a list of law students looking to sublet over the summer yet? If not, you can just wait for that list to go out to the summer starters and you should be able to find one from there easily.

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:35 pm

blueapple wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
blueapple wrote:
brinicolec wrote:No A/C over the summer: Will it be too hot?

I'm not familiar with the weather during the summer. A sublet I'm looking at has no A/C but it's a pretty good price so I was just wondering if I'll get too hot with no A/C or if you all think no A/C in the summer is fine? I generally like my room being around 70 degrees and I'm not opposed to opening windows or something like that.


Yes, way too hot. Are you sure the sublet doesn't have a window unit? Most Ann Arbor apartments (unless it's a new building or a high rise) aren't going to have central A/C but they should have window units.


No window unit! They told me in an email that they decided not to get one.


Oh boy, that's terrible. I would definitely not take this sublet unless they're willing to buy a window unit. It's so easy to find a cheap sublet in AA in the summer so I would keep looking for one that includes a window unit. Has the school sent out a list of law students looking to sublet over the summer yet? If not, you can just wait for that list to go out to the summer starters and you should be able to find one from there easily.


Yeah, it's already out. It's just super-cheap (like $500/mth) whereas others I was looking at are like $650 so I was tempted but if the no A/C thing is that bad, I'll pass lol

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brinicolec
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby brinicolec » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:34 pm

How soon before classes do we need to buy our books/is there somewhere students sell their old books or something?

P.S. Friedman is the new summer start professor for CivPro. Anyone know what he's like in that class?

SUPERCHEF
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby SUPERCHEF » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:20 pm

How competitive is it to be able to get biglaw/midlaw in Detroit/SE MI? I'm thinking Honigman, Jones Day, Dickinson, Dykema, Gunderson, Foley, etc. etc. Does anyone know what the salary/working hours are like compared to NYC biglaw?

EarlyDecision2020
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby EarlyDecision2020 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:29 pm

rationalhound wrote:
EarlyDecision2020 wrote:I recently visit Michigan and am really considering attending. Here's my burning question:

-LST has 36% of the 2015 class going into 500+ attorney firms, and roughly 10% going into federal clerkships
-This leaves roughly 54% of the class doing something else
-To be conservative, I would assume that everyone at Michigan that could have done BigLaw because their grades were good enough chose to do BigLaw. But, when talking with Michigan Law students, I've been told that students that could qualified for BigLaw via grades instead chose to do PI or something else. What percentage of the 2015 Michigan Law class actually could have done BigLaw but chose instead to do something else?



I got nothing else to do today, let's break it down. LST link: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/michigan/jobs/

  • 197 took firm jobs
    • 180 of those were with large firms, i.e. BigLaw.
    • 11 were with small firms, which are not bigalw
    • 3 were staff attorney positions, which are not biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 59 took clerkships
    • 36 were federal clerkships, and count as biglaw equivalent
    • 23 were local or 'other.' I don't know what kind of outcomes local clerks have. For the sake of pessimism, these jobs are not biglaw equivalent
  • 15 took business jobs
    • 6 jobs required bar passage. I'm willing to call these biglaw equivalent. Most of us who land biglaw jobs will end up here eventually.
    • 7 were JD advantage. Not biglaw equivalent
    • 2 were 'professional' jobs. Also not biglaw equivalent.
  • 37 took government jobs
    • 32 required bar passage. These are unknown without more information. Could be DOJ honors or similar jobs with other agencies, JAG, state agency jobs, congressional committee staffers, EOP jobs, state DA and PD jobs, the list goes on. I'll count these cause being a government lawyer sounds a-okay to me, what with the job security and all.
    • 5 were unknown. Again, hard to say. Could be congressional staffers or similar political jobs, could be state, county, or city nonlawyer jobs. Since I was generous with bar passage required government jobs, I'll be pessimistic here. These are not biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 2 took jobs in education
    • 1 job required bar passage. Probably a law professor? I'll count it.
    • 1 did not. No bar passage = not a lawyer = not a biglaw equivalent.
  • 34 took public interest jobs.
    • 31 required bar passage. I'm not terribly familar with PI, but the consensus seems to be that these count count as biglaw equivalent.
    • 3 were JD advantage. See commentary for education jobs.
  • 14 unemployed


In total we have
  • 286, or 80.7% of the class of 2015 have biglaw or biglaw equivalent jobs.
  • 68 do not.

To properly answer the your bolded question, only 216 only landed actual biglaw jobs or federal clerkships, 70 landed non-clerkship biglaw equivalent jobs and 68 did not land a biglaw equivalent job. So it's about 60/20/20 split between biglaw/equivalent/hopefully has minimal student loans


NERD EDIT:
While I was deciding where to apply, I did a lot of screwing around with LST data and pretty much ended up using two metrics as the best way to grade outcomes. First, 'quality outcomes' (QoC) which is the percent of students that ended up at large firms or in federal clerkships. These are the people that are going to be able to pay off six-figure student loan debts. Second, quality outcomes + PI, (QoC+PI) which is the percent of students that had quality outcomes added to the percent of students that landed PI jobs. While PI jobs aren't as good as biglaw jobs since you have to help people and can't afford models and bottles*, at least someone is paying off your student loans. If we rank the non-T6 T14 schools using 2015 data, we have:

QoC
  • Penn - 76.9
  • Duke - 74.7
  • UVA - 70.2
  • Northwestern - 69.5
  • Cornell - 66.6
  • Michigan - 61
  • Berkeley - 56.5
  • Georgetown (Though both UCLA and UT have better QoC scores) - 44.1

QoC+PI
  • Penn - 85
  • UVA - 81.9
  • Duke -79
  • Cornell - 78.6
  • Northwestern - 76.1
  • Berkeley - 75.6
  • Michigan - 73.7
  • Georgetown (Beating UCLA and UT) - 63.7

I'm not enough of a statistician to really know how much a difference 5% makes when that's only about 15 people, but it's safe to say Penn the best, Duke and UVA are above average, Georgetown is worse, and Berkeley, Michigan, Cornell and Northwestern are all about the same. It is unlikely you'll land a job at Duke you couldn't get at Michigan. Penn, maybe. Though really there'd need to be a big multi-year study to say for sure.


*This is a joke, on the off chance you couldn't tell


Greatly appreciate the information, really. In the end, I take solace in the Michigan peer schools all being more or less comparable for placement, and will assume that Michigan sends more competitive students to PI than do some of the other schools. Have a great week

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deuceindc
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby deuceindc » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:52 pm

SUPERCHEF wrote:How competitive is it to be able to get biglaw/midlaw in Detroit/SE MI? I'm thinking Honigman, Jones Day, Dickinson, Dykema, Gunderson, Foley, etc. etc. Does anyone know what the salary/working hours are like compared to NYC biglaw?


If you've got ties (or create them as a 1L), you can almost certainly get something if you hustle and interview well. Most students have no interest in Detroit, so OCI is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

Current salary, benefits, hours, etc. stuff should be on Vault/NALP/google it.

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gsy987
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Re: Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions

Postby gsy987 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:15 pm

brinicolec wrote:How soon before classes do we need to buy our books/is there somewhere students sell their old books or something?

P.S. Friedman is the new summer start professor for CivPro. Anyone know what he's like in that class?


Brace yourself.




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