University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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byu85
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University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:49 am

Because I took advantage of these "taking questions" forums so much last year, I decided I would return the favor...

yo!
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby yo! » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:05 am

Do either of you have a rough estimate of the tuition increases over the next few years? How much have they gone up traditionally?

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azbio
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby azbio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:19 am

From your profile name, I assume you went to BYU undergrad. I'm considering both Utah and BYU for law school. Were you interested in both schools for law school as well? If so, what made you choose Utah? How would you compare the two schools?

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wardboro
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby wardboro » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:01 pm

If BYU is cheaper and you don't think you'll be bothered by living in Provo, then I'd probably go BYU. The U is a great program, but jobs--especially out-of-area jobs--are going to be easier to get coming out of the Y. Second, Utah's tuition is going to probably take another 8% or so bump this year. It might even be more than that for incoming students. With Utah likely costing around 20k a year in-state by your 3L year, then the cost difference will likely be somewhat significant.

On the other hand, not everyone loves Provo and so if you are targeting the Utah market, UU might be an easier place to exist during your school years. If you're specifically targeting SLC (and this really only applies to SLC) then Utah might not be a bad choice because the firms will take about the same GPA cutoff from either school, and it's arguably easier to get better grades at Utah than at BYU (though it's not cake at Utah).

Visit both, see the plusses and minuses of each school. The U is a great place, and I love it here, but if you had no money at either place and you don't mind Provo, then I think that BYU is likely going to give you better employment prospects--especially if you're looking out-of-state.

OCI typically gets around 40-50 employers. That's a NALP number, so I'm not giving any secrets away telling you that. In the old economy about the top 1/3 landed good-paying SLC larger firm jobs. These jobs would be with the reputable 20+ attorney firms in town. Last year (2009) 2L OCI had about 35 employers show up for OCI, but only a handful were actually hiring. Between BYU, Utah, and Utah kids coming in from top-tier schools out of state, there weren't very many 2L OCI jobs to go around. I would estimate that there were less than half the number of summer positions (in SLC) available for summer 2010 as there for for summer 2008. Definitely a good number of top 20% kids are still jobless this summer. That wasn't the case in '08. ITE, that's characteristic of most schools with a comparable ranking. 3L OCI isn't really that big of a deal anywhere, but I'd guess that this 10ish firms with actual open positions interviewed 3Ls last fall.

Specifically on tuition, there's University (main campus) tuition (which has gone up about 10% a year for the last couple years, and in tight budget times will likely continue on that path) and "differential" (law school only) tuition. The law school must follow the increases in University tuition, but has discretion to increase differential tuition. They have suggested that for students already there they will try to limit future tuition increases to University tuition only. With new students coming in, some increase in differential tuition may happen. That said, I would guess that for new students, over the next three years you could probably expect an increase of about 8-18% a year. State budgets are tight, and I figure that increases will be at least 8% a year over your term there.

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usuaggie
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby usuaggie » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:50 pm

How are the facilities? How is the student body?

I go to Utah State, which probably has the largest amount of school pride in Utah (BYU might be close), but from what I hear and have seen, the U is a large commuter school for undergrad. Does this carry over to law school?

What sets the U apart from other schools? Are there a lot of great teachers? What is the GPA curve? How is the competition? Do you feel confident in securing the job that you want straight out of law school?


What do you wish was different about the school? What do you want to see more of?

Thanks in advance :D

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wardboro
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby wardboro » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:14 am

Facilities are terrible. Groundbreaking for a new building is scheduled for 2013. Good teachers, some school pride, but not like an undergraduate would have. Utah Law is commuter oriented, though many live near campus. GPA curve 3.1-3.3, but functionally is 3.3. I talked about jobs above, others are free to chime in, but I think my sample is at least fairly representative. Most students go on to small practices.

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:28 am

azbio wrote:From your profile name, I assume you went to BYU undergrad. I'm considering both Utah and BYU for law school. Were you interested in both schools for law school as well? If so, what made you choose Utah? How would you compare the two schools?


Yes, I did go to BYU as an undergrad, and loved it. However, I have always been a fan of Utah Basketball/Football so it wasn't too hard to make the transition. I was waitlisted at BYU Law, and probably would have gone there over the U had I got in, mostly because it's about half the cost (although Utah is still probably the second cheapest law school after the Y). HOWEVER, after attending the U for 1 semester I am SO happy I ended up here. The professors are great, the student body very cool and diverse (especially compared to BYU Law's 75% white males), and I have a 1L friend at BYU and he describes it as being completely cut-throat and intense (BYU's LSAT numbers are way higher than its ranking, but it's ranking isn't going to budge because the USNews' emphasis on Judge/Attorney opinions - which aren't high when it comes to BYU).

At Utah there is still good competition, however, it seems quite laid back when I compare my experiences with my BYU law friend. Basically, at BYU Law you have a large group of students who were accepted at Harvard/Yale but decided on BYU because of LDS/social/dating reasons, so it is way more competitive than it should be for its ranking and quality. When you get to law school you will learn how important your law school class rank is. I just found out that I am in the top 20% (Utah just tells you if you are top 10%, 20%, 30%, or 50%, not exact rank, which is a good thing because it opens up more doors because if you are in the top 20% you can apply to all the firms that only ask for the top 15%, etc), and I don't feel like I killed myself or neglected my friends, families, etc to get my grades. If anything, I felt that my first semester of law school was LESS stressful than some semesters as a BYU undergrad, however, law school finals are CRAZY no matter where you go to school (almost every class is determined 100% off of your 4-8 hour final exam, which creates a ton of pressure...)

More importantly, BYU only has 8 OCI firms/gov agencies coming to interview 1L's this year, 8! Utah on the other hand has 13 OCI firms/gov agencies coming (of course some hire more than one student), this is significant especially considering that Utah has much smaller class sizes compared to BYU (only 130 in the class of 2012). Utah has the advantage of being in a much larger city with many more job options. Further, most of the big firms in SLC hire 1 BYU and 1 Utah student, so going to BYU might actually disadvantage you because of the reasons discussed (larger class sizes, more competition, etc)

But don't worry, most people don't get their jobs through OCI, you just have to look up firms yourself and apply via email/in-person. If you are willing to do an unpaid job your 1L summer it is MUCH easier. However, to get a paid job at a firm as a 1L is tough no matter where you are at school in the current market. According to the PDO (professional development office) here at the U, about 3x the employers come for 2L's v. 1L's, so your chances triple for getting a job via OCI for your second summer.

In the end, if you get into both schools you can't go wrong either way. They are essentially ranked the same, but BYU is more competitive and Utah is more expensive.
Last edited by byu85 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:40 am

wardboro wrote:Facilities are terrible. Groundbreaking for a new building is scheduled for 2013. Good teachers, some school pride, but not like an undergraduate would have. Utah Law is commuter oriented, though many live near campus. GPA curve 3.1-3.3, but functionally is 3.3. I talked about jobs above, others are free to chime in, but I think my sample is at least fairly representative. Most students go on to small practices.


I agree that the building isn't great, but it gets the job done and is across the street from the TRAX train station and parking lot. Luckily for future students they are building a new law school, but not until 2013... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._J._Quinney_College_of_Law It's compact, but luckily the student body population is small as well. I feel like I know most of the 130 students in my class on a first name basis, which is cool. A lot of great people and we have a lot of fun. I'm LDS and went to BYU and it's been nice to experience some diversity (only about 30% of us are LDS at Utah Law). I just checked and the GPA curve is as follows: (remember that class rank/percentile is obviously more important than the GPA curve, but Utah's relatively high GPA curve is nice because at a lot of schools the average is set at a 3.0 or 2.6, which makes your GPA look terrible)...

Fall 2009 Percentile Report
(Cumulative GPA as of 1/20/2010)

Class of 2012

· Top 10% : GPA ≥ 3.753
· Top 20% : GPA ≥ 3.560
· Top 30% : GPA ≥ 3.467
· Top 50% : GPA ≥ 3.267

Class of 2011

· Top 10% : GPA ≥ 3.712
· Top 20% : GPA ≥ 3.612
· Top 30% : GPA ≥ 3.553
· Top 50% : GPA ≥ 3.304

Class of 2010

· Top 10% : GPA ≥ 3.792
· Top 20% : GPA ≥ 3.643
· Top 30% : GPA ≥ 3.507
· Top 50% : GPA ≥ 3.283

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:02 am

usuaggie wrote:How are the facilities? How is the student body?

I go to Utah State, which probably has the largest amount of school pride in Utah (BYU might be close), but from what I hear and have seen, the U is a large commuter school for undergrad. Does this carry over to law school?

What sets the U apart from other schools? Are there a lot of great teachers? What is the GPA curve? How is the competition? Do you feel confident in securing the job that you want straight out of law school?


What do you wish was different about the school? What do you want to see more of?

Thanks in advance :D


I think most of your questions have been answered in other posts, but as far as feeling confident about securing a job straight out of school... Yes, I know I can get a job, maybe not paying $120,000, but I know that jobs are out there, and hopefully the economy will have turned around by the time I graduate in 2.5 years... I think you should be fine, 3.5/4.5 years is a long time and I think the legal market should be back to normal by then. The U usually has a 90% employment rate at graduation, which is excellent. Plus, there are no jobs in any other fields right now either so it's wise to be in grad school to wait out the downturn then graduate when things are back to normal.

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usuaggie
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby usuaggie » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:12 am

byu85 wrote:
azbio wrote:From your profile name, I assume you went to BYU undergrad. I'm considering both Utah and BYU for law school. Were you interested in both schools for law school as well? If so, what made you choose Utah? How would you compare the two schools?


I have a 1L friend at BYU and he describes it as being completely cut-throat and intense (BYU's LSAT numbers are way higher than its ranking, but it's ranking isn't going to budge because the USNews' emphasis on Judge/Attorney opinions - which aren't high when it comes to BYU).



yeah princeton review has byu as one of the top 3 overly competitive/cutthroat schools.

yo!
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby yo! » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:09 am

byu85 wrote:
azbio wrote:From your profile name, I assume you went to BYU undergrad. I'm considering both Utah and BYU for law school. Were you interested in both schools for law school as well? If so, what made you choose Utah? How would you compare the two schools?


Yes, I did go to BYU as an undergrad, and loved it. However, I have always been a fan of Utah Basketball/Football so it wasn't too hard to make the transition. I was waitlisted at BYU Law, and probably would have gone there over the U had I got in, mostly because it's about half the cost (although Utah is still probably the second cheapest law school after the Y). HOWEVER, after attending the U for 1 semester I am SO happy I ended up here. The professors are great, the student body very cool and diverse (especially compared to BYU Law's 75% white males), and I have a 1L friend at BYU and he describes it as being completely cut-throat and intense (BYU's LSAT numbers are way higher than its ranking, but it's ranking isn't going to budge because the USNews' emphasis on Judge/Attorney opinions - which aren't high when it comes to BYU).

At Utah there is still good competition, however, it seems quite laid back when I compare my experiences with my BYU law friend. Basically, at BYU Law you have a large group of students who were accepted at Harvard/Yale but decided on BYU because of LDS/social/dating reasons, so it is way more competitive than it should be for its ranking and quality. When you get to law school you will learn how important your law school class rank is. I just found out that I am in the top 20% (Utah just tells you if you are top 10%, 20%, 30%, or 50%, not exact rank, which is a good thing because it opens up more doors because if you are in the top 20% you can apply to all the firms that only ask for the top 15%, etc), and I don't feel like I killed myself or neglected my friends, families, etc to get my grades. If anything, I felt that my first semester of law school was LESS stressful than some semesters as a BYU undergrad, however, law school finals are CRAZY no matter where you go to school (almost every class is determined 100% off of your 4-8 hour final exam, which creates a ton of pressure...)

More importantly, BYU only has 8 OCI firms/gov agencies coming to interview 1L's this year, 8! Utah on the other hand has 13 OCI firms/gov agencies coming (of course some hire more than one student), this is significant especially considering that Utah has much smaller class sizes compared to BYU (only 130 in the class of 2012). Utah has the advantage of being in a much larger city with many more job options. Further, most of the big firms in SLC hire 1 BYU and 1 Utah student, so going to BYU might actually disadvantage you because of the reasons discussed (larger class sizes, more competition, etc)

But don't worry, most people don't get their jobs through OCI, you just have to look up firms yourself and apply via email/in-person. If you are willing to do an unpaid job your 1L summer it is MUCH easier. However, to get a paid job at a firm as a 1L is tough no matter where you are at school in the current market. According to the PDO (professional development office) here at the U, about 3x the employers come for 2L's v. 1L's, so your chances triple for getting a job via OCI for your second summer.

In the end, if you get into both schools you can't go wrong either way. They are essentially ranked the same, but BYU is more competitive and Utah is more expensive.


This is great if you barely made the top 20, but completely sucks if you are in the top 11%.

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wardboro
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby wardboro » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:52 pm

byu85 wrote:
azbio wrote:From your profile name, I assume you went to BYU undergrad. I'm considering both Utah and BYU for law school. Were you interested in both schools for law school as well? If so, what made you choose Utah? How would you compare the two schools?

More importantly, BYU only has 8 OCI firms/gov agencies coming to interview 1L's this year, 8! Utah on the other hand has 13 OCI firms/gov agencies coming (of course some hire more than one student), this is significant especially considering that Utah has much smaller class sizes compared to BYU (only 130 in the class of 2012). Utah has the advantage of being in a much larger city with many more job options. Further, most of the big firms in SLC hire 1 BYU and 1 Utah student, so going to BYU might actually disadvantage you because of the reasons discussed (larger class sizes, more competition, etc)


Spring OCI is a terrible sample, though. Nobody really takes spring OCI seriously and it's worse this year than most years. BYU places more in out-of-state Biglaw, and usually their Fall OCI (the real OCI) has at least twice the number of employers that Utah has. BYU gets all the local firms and a good number of regional/national firms. (Traditionally about 100 employers total.) Utah gets the all the good local firms and a few regional and maybe a couple national firms. (About 40-50 employers.) I also think that the Utah CSO sometimes puts "resume collection--no actual on campus interview" into the OCI category as well, and that affects the number of listed employers. This could also explain the discrepancy.

With Biglaw in the dumps, big firms aren't even thinking about Spring OCI. BYU suffers more because it has more national/regional biglaw shops that come to OCI. Utah will have a couple more very small shops with alums at spring OCI--BYU and Utah will more than likely have the exact same SLC firms that show up for spring OCI. My point is, the 13 vs. 8 doesn't mean anything except that the whole legal market--State of Utah included--is in the dumps.

But don't worry, most people don't get their jobs through OCI, you just have to look up firms yourself and apply via email/in-person. If you are willing to do an unpaid job your 1L summer it is MUCH easier. However, to get a paid job at a firm as a 1L is tough no matter where you are at school in the current market. According to the PDO (professional development office) here at the U, about 3x the employers come for 2L's v. 1L's, so your chances triple for getting a job via OCI for your second summer.


When they say "most people don't get their jobs through OCI" they don't mean go apply at the fancy local firms in person. They mean most students don't get big firm, or medium firm, or good local firm jobs. Those firms almost exclusively hire students through the schools' OCI. They make exceptions for law schools where they don't do OCI (think something like UCLA), or for people who are the children of 10 million dollar clients. There is a much better chance of getting a firm job your 2nd summer, but I know a lot in the class of 2011 who are in the top 20% who do not have good firm jobs. Some of them don't have any summer employment--including some in the top 10%.

This isn't a panic post. People get employed because they network and find very small local firms and readjust their expectations about where they plan to work. They do just fine. That said, Ray Quinney and other similar shops locally use OCI as their primary hiring route for summer/new associates.

Utah does have an advantage being in SLC, because it makes it more convient to take a job with a smaller shop or the Attorney General's office.

With regard to my comment about the facilities--they're old, but fine. I would have gotten the same Biz Orgs grade whether the building was new or old. Student body is small, and it's more than adequate for our needs. That said, it's not fancy.

School?--I think you're right that SLC firms don't really differentiate between the two schools. Outside of the state, however, I think that BYU has a modest edge.

As for me. I didn't get the nod at BYU, so I didn't have a clear choice. I think I probably enjoy my experience at the U more than I would have liked the Y, but the cost difference as well as the modest edge for out-of-state placement would have likely put me in the BYU column if I were making a decision at this point. Even so, I love it here at the U, and I would recommend it to most anyone.

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:51 am

Has anyone started to hear back from the U yet? Looking forward to meeting all of you. The U is awesome! You will love it!

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darknightbegins
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby darknightbegins » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:56 am

I applied there, still haven't heard back. If I go to Utah how are my chances at getting a job in Nevada? I wouldn't mind spending 3 years in Utah but I doubt I want to make a career out of being in the state. Too cold

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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby yo! » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:58 pm

byu85 wrote:Has anyone started to hear back from the U yet? Looking forward to meeting all of you. The U is awesome! You will love it!


Have you been able to line up anything for the summer?

utahredsoxfan
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby utahredsoxfan » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:02 pm

Applied to the U, haven't heard anything back yet though. Went to BYU for my undergrad too, but want a change. Living in Saratoga Springs now, so I'd love to stay close to home. Just got accepted to Penn State today, so hopefully the U will follow suit soon.

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:38 am

yo! wrote:
byu85 wrote:Has anyone started to hear back from the U yet? Looking forward to meeting all of you. The U is awesome! You will love it!


Have you been able to line up anything for the summer?


Yes! I actually secured a summer job last week. I am excited. Most employers aren't very excited about 1L summer associates and the paid firm jobs are almost non-existent (at least in SLC, only about 5-6 firms here offer 1L summer associate positions, but if you get one you are lucky, about $6,000 for 3 months!). I got several interviews at the large Utah firms but wasn't able to secure a position... My job involves working with in-house counsel at a large Utah Corporation, it will be a great experience. If you don't get a job though don't worry, summer school is a great option and at the U there are numerous other activities, e.g., judicial clinics, pro-bono clinic, etc.

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byu85
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby byu85 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:40 am

utahredsoxfan wrote:Applied to the U, haven't heard anything back yet though. Went to BYU for my undergrad too, but want a change. Living in Saratoga Springs now, so I'd love to stay close to home. Just got accepted to Penn State today, so hopefully the U will follow suit soon.


Good Luck! Penn State would be great but I am sure that U would be a lot cheaper. You will have a great experience and gain an excellent education either way though.

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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby Gish » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:42 am

I just received my acceptance two days ago. Nothing confirmed yet on where I am going yet, but it is a real option.

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yeast master
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby yeast master » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:50 am

I wasn't thinking I would have much of a decision between BYU and UofU because I got full tuition at BYU and based on LSN, I wasn't expecting to get as much from the U. But I recently received a generous offer from the U that actually beats BYU's offer if I understand it correctly, so I need to do some due diligence to compare the two options. Several questions have come up, and since you're taking questions, I figured I'd give it a shot.

Do you know where most students with families live? Do you know if there's an area in Salt Lake Valley where it might be possible to rent a small single family home for under $1000? I could commute, but if I was very far away I would want to have convenient access to public transit to the U so I could study during my commute rather than lose that time driving.

I also have an alternative possible living arrangement. My parents live in Utah Valley and I have been thinking of saving money by living with them while attending BYU. I looked around the UTA site and it looks like the only options for transit up to UofU from Utah Valley would make it so that I would leave home at 6 a.m. (getting up that early isn't too much of a problem) and arrive home at 6 p.m. That would put me on campus from 8-ish to 5-ish with additional study time in transit. Does that sound like a crazy plan? It sounds kinda crazy to me because it seems like I might have trouble staying busy that whole time. On the other hand, if I need that much time to study, it might be a good thing to not be able to go home right after class in the afternoon and get distracted with kids and such.

A family member who attended UofU a few years back seems to remember that students got free UTA passes. Is that still the case?

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justcap
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby justcap » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:06 am

Congratulations on the generous offer!
I have been accepted but am still waiting for scholarship info... I can't really even think about the U until I see what $ i get...

mugwump
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby mugwump » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:31 am

Would appreciate any opinions on non-LDS getting post-graduation employment in SLC.

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yeast master
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby yeast master » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:06 pm

mugwump wrote:Would appreciate any opinions on non-LDS getting post-graduation employment in SLC.


I would guess that lack of Mormon-ness would be a non-factor. SLC isn't really all that Mormon-dominated. I mean, the LDS church is a big presence and all, and there are plenty of Mormons about, but I don't think Mormons are even a majority anymore. A lot of Utah fits the very conservative, very Mormon stereotype, but there are several areas where that's not the case. SLC is definitely one of those areas.

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Zoomba200
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby Zoomba200 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:09 pm

yeast master wrote:A family member who attended UofU a few years back seems to remember that students got free UTA passes. Is that still the case?


Trax and UTA buses are free for students.

Edit: I am pretty sure your student ID card is all you need to show to get the free ride, but I am certain that it is free.

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Cmoss
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Re: University of Utah 1L Taking Questions!

Postby Cmoss » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:52 pm

applying for this cycle! stoked!




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