NYU Class of 2017 - Basically graduated Forum

[fivestarfolds]

I will cook you ladies/gentlemen dinner every evening and reduce your COL if only you'll attend NYU with me.

[barrelofmonkeys]

I will cook you ladies/gentlemen dinner every evening and reduce your COL if only you'll attend NYU with me.

sold!

[fivestarfolds]

I will cook you ladies/gentlemen dinner every evening and reduce your COL if only you'll attend NYU with me.

sold!

but first I'll need your parent's financial documentation, your socials, outstanding debts, and first 1.3 children... then we'll see...

[Synch]

I have called the Fin Aid office 5 times today. They are "in a meeting"

[Kimikho]

I have called the Fin Aid office 5 times today. They are "in a meeting"

...

I believed that when I called them the first time

[jbagelboy]

Unfortunately this is a mantra that seems standard across the top 6. I've heard some crazy things from the Cambridge folks.

And frankly, it's unacceptable (Here's lookin' at you, Joel!)

It's a little different for Yale and Stanford where there's a legitimate effort to maintain total loans at or under $40K/year per student with a need-based component. That's a conscionable figure at graduation for 10-yr repayment. But NYU and CLS (maybe HLS too?) legitimately leave a whole class of applicants facing unmanageable, unconscionable $275-300,000 loan balances and try to pull the same PAYE schtick.. no wonder they attract a very wealthy and entitled student body since the plebs can't stomach it and know better.

But what's the alternative, you might ask? Aren't they just doing their duty selling the school like the rest of the adcom pawns? I disagree - financial aid offices should be more upfront and serve as true financial advisers (which is nominally part of their function). This means not giving our reckless, poorly packaged advise to woefully ignorant twenty-somethings (I'm sure they hate our TLS ilk).

First, financial advisers could have an actual dialogue with students about paying for school and listen to their circumstances. For example, the "parental contribution" NYU assigned back during my cycle. If anyone had cared to pay attention they would know I'd been, and many others are as well, entirely divorced from my parents' finances since even before college graduation. I'm not going to come back to them years later and ask for money they don't have for graduate school. And "personal contribution"? I mean, what does that even mean when your net worth is already less than what you owe to UG student loans/credit cards/car loans/ect. What a stupid figure.

They should be honest with students who don't have other means of support and say, maybe you should look elsewhere. Maybe this law school actually isn't for you: maybe, if I knew anything about finances as my job title suggests I should, I wouldn't advise you to take out $280,000 in non-dischargeable debt; and I wouldn't pretend that wasn't the circumstance with meaningless "family" and "personal" contribution distinctions. That would be so refreshing, and it doesn't violate any fiduciary duties on their part either. "We can't justify reducing your tuition by this amount this year because we're broke and other more deserving students need this money too; but it's fine cause big law & PAYE; maybe consider attending a different school. Where's the fiduciary duty to future students and applicants? You might say there is none and this is naive - but then what's the fucking point of being a university? even banks will stop you from over-borrowing, and they literally just exist for profit!

I recall a paradigmatic series of email exchanges I had with a University of Michigan financial aid counselor during my cycle, where she wouldn't budget Michigan's offer despite a significantly higher Duke award First, it was because "cost of living" adjustments would even it out; when I pointed out that Durham actually had cheaper CoL in every conceivable metric (gas, food, rent, ect.) and cited actual stats for it, she said okay, but Michigan provides substantially better opportunities for high earning employment than Duke. When I pointed out the clear fallacy in that line of reasoning, she suggested that I could be making $160,000 at a New York firm anyway if I wanted to, so the debt wouldn't really matter in comparison. Even if Michigan had 100% firm placement (ha, ha) this would be idiotic, since six figures of debt isn't simply a moot point because of prospect of a high salary.

NYU and CLS especially, due to their ridiculous tuition & cost of living, could use some more transparent dialogue with students on costs and good fiscal decision-making, not just what helps their offices' bottom line.

Sorry for the rant.

[politics89]

Since we're ranting about financial aid and their uselessness. I thought I would just throw it that I visited NYUs last ASW and made an appointment to meet up with my advisor the Wed before. Despite me scheduling this 3 weeks in advance, not a single advisor was in the office to talk to me. The receptionist was rightly mortified and took my cell number. They called me back and left me a message while I was on the train and didn't have service. I called them back right when I did to ask when I could reschedule as I wasn't in town long. I never got a call or email or any acknowledgement back. Frankly I was, and still am, livid about it. Don't know if this story helps anyone but I needed a rant too.

[yomisterd]

Withdrew today. It was a difficult one. See you all on the other side.

[snappysalmons]

[quote="jbagelboy"][/quote]

Ya, but T6 law degree, bruh. Doors.

The administrators at this level of school aren't any less of scammers than their TTT counterparts. It's just that the outcomes of the bs are less disastrous.

[kathj06]

Unfortunately this is a mantra that seems standard across the top 6. I've heard some crazy things from the Cambridge folks.

And frankly, it's unacceptable (Here's lookin' at you, Joel!)

It's a little different for Yale and Stanford where there's a legitimate effort to maintain total loans at or under $40K/year per student with a need-based component. That's a conscionable figure at graduation for 10-yr repayment. But NYU and CLS (maybe HLS too?) legitimately leave a whole class of applicants facing unmanageable, unconscionable $275-300,000 loan balances and try to pull the same PAYE schtick.. no wonder they attract a very wealthy and entitled student body since the plebs can't stomach it and know better.

But what's the alternative, you might ask? Aren't they just doing their duty selling the school like the rest of the adcom pawns? I disagree - financial aid offices should be more upfront and serve as true financial advisers (which is nominally part of their function). This means not giving our reckless, poorly packaged advise to woefully ignorant twenty-somethings (I'm sure they hate our TLS ilk).

First, financial advisers could have an actual dialogue with students about paying for school and listen to their circumstances. For example, the "parental contribution" NYU assigned back during my cycle. If anyone had cared to pay attention they would know I'd been, and many others are as well, entirely divorced from my parents' finances since even before college graduation. I'm not going to come back to them years later and ask for money they don't have for graduate school. And "personal contribution"? I mean, what does that even mean when your net worth is already less than what you owe to UG student loans/credit cards/car loans/ect. What a stupid figure.

They should be honest with students who don't have other means of support and say, maybe you should look elsewhere. Maybe this law school actually isn't for you: maybe, if I knew anything about finances as my job title suggests I should, I wouldn't advise you to take out $280,000 in non-dischargeable debt; and I wouldn't pretend that wasn't the circumstance with meaningless "family" and "personal" contribution distinctions. That would be so refreshing, and it doesn't violate any fiduciary duties on their part either. "We can't justify reducing your tuition by this amount this year because we're broke and other more deserving students need this money too; but it's fine cause big law & PAYE; maybe consider attending a different school. Where's the fiduciary duty to future students and applicants? You might say there is none and this is naive - but then what's the fucking point of being a university? even banks will stop you from over-borrowing, and they literally just exist for profit!

I recall a paradigmatic series of email exchanges I had with a University of Michigan financial aid counselor during my cycle, where she wouldn't budget Michigan's offer despite a significantly higher Duke award First, it was because "cost of living" adjustments would even it out; when I pointed out that Durham actually had cheaper CoL in every conceivable metric (gas, food, rent, ect.) and cited actual stats for it, she said okay, but Michigan provides substantially better opportunities for high earning employment than Duke. When I pointed out the clear fallacy in that line of reasoning, she suggested that I could be making $160,000 at a New York firm anyway if I wanted to, so the debt wouldn't really matter in comparison. Even if Michigan had 100% firm placement (ha, ha) this would be idiotic, since six figures of debt isn't simply a moot point because of prospect of a high salary.

NYU and CLS especially, due to their ridiculous tuition & cost of living, could use some more transparent dialogue with students on costs and good fiscal decision-making, not just what helps their offices' bottom line.

Sorry for the rant.

No apology necessary; I just have to say "amen." At NYU's first ASW, a girl asked the student panel how they felt about attending an expensive school in such an expensive city. One of the bros said in response, "I mean, I'm assuming your parents are paying for most of it, right? Mine are." He was not kidding.

[checkers]

At NYU's first ASW, a girl asked the student panel how they felt about attending an expensive school in such an expensive city. One of the bros said in response, "I mean, I'm assuming your parents are paying for most of it, right? Mine are." He was not kidding.

Rage. Pure rage.

[fivestarfolds]

-

[Theopliske8711]

That assumption isn't too far off. It just didn't work out for you. My friend was one of the only people in his NYU circle who didn't have his parents paying at least a significant portion of tuition.

To counter the rants and offer a new perspective, NYU has seriously enabled me to move from low-middle-class to the upper crust.

Counter-counter: NYU students have the most amount of debt.

[fivestarfolds]

That assumption isn't too far off. It just didn't work out for you. My friend was one of the only people in his NYU circle who didn't have his parents paying at least a significant portion of tuition.

To counter the rants and offer a new perspective, NYU has seriously enabled me to move from low-middle-class to the upper crust.

Counter-counter: NYU students have the most amount of debt.

I'm not trying to counter the fact that NYU is offering pretty low numbers that some of us shouldn't take, but I would like to say that it's not all negative. NYU gave me a really great shot at attending law school that nearly matched an offer from Duke and even my offers from T20s.

edit: Theo, I hope you use "counter-counter" during your oral arguments in court. It made me laugh.

[Theopliske8711]

I mean, I shouldn't be one to complain, since I got a pretty solid deal from them. Still, it annoys me that they can seem so snide about the fact that they are jipping so many prospective students who really want to go.

[SFrost]

First, financial advisers could have an actual dialogue with students about paying for school and listen to their circumstances. For example, the "parental contribution" NYU assigned back during my cycle. If anyone had cared to pay attention they would know I'd been, and many others are as well, entirely divorced from my parents' finances since even before college graduation. I'm not going to come back to them years later and ask for money they don't have for graduate school. And "personal contribution"? I mean, what does that even mean when your net worth is already less than what you owe to UG student loans/credit cards/car loans/ect. What a stupid figure.

I do agree with many of your points. I want to counter your statement about your parents income, though. Just because your parents don't intend to help you with law school does not mean you are not privileged by their income. Parents with money are a valuable fall back. You could get cancer, a car accident, etc.etc. are you telling me your parents wouldn't help? If the answer is no then you need to support that with a letter of estrangement and an appeal to financial aid.

I received quite generous need-based awards from several schools (that were not Yale or Stanford). People need to accept that schools don't necessarily care the quantity of loans you take, they care about the risk you assume by taking a given quantity of loans.

Although, overall, I think law school is ridiculously expensive. It attracts too much privilege and discourages people from backgrounds where six figure debt is just too terrifying. I do believe several schools, including NYU, are making at least minor efforts to increase access for some, however.

[snappysalmons]

I do believe several schools, including NYU, are making at least minor efforts to increase access for some, however.

Not sure how much I buy this. If they really cared about the burden they're imposing, they'd at least cool it with the yearly 4-5% tuition bumps.

[snappysalmons]

It's like.. Oh wow! You gave me $15k/yr, how incredibly generous! Oh wait, that just makes my tuition what sticker was ten years ago. But ten years ago the law school was almost closing bc of how cash-strapped and poor it was, right?

[Theopliske8711]

10 years ago Greenwich Village was much cheaper; and parts of BK were a fraction of the cost.

[jbagelboy]

Content removed

[EquallyWrong]

At NYU's first ASW, a girl asked the student panel how they felt about attending an expensive school in such an expensive city. One of the bros said in response, "I mean, I'm assuming your parents are paying for most of it, right? Mine are." He was not kidding.

Rage. Pure rage.

don't worry, he's a coddled weakling and will fail when pitted against us hardy proles...just fail without any massive debt obligations, which is a nice luxury.

[drevo]

I do agree with many of your points. I want to counter your statement about your parents income, though. Just because your parents don't intend to help you with law school does not mean you are not privileged by their income. Parents with money are a valuable fall back. You could get cancer, a car accident, etc.etc. are you telling me your parents wouldn't help? If the answer is no then you need to support that with a letter of estrangement and an appeal to financial aid.


Although, overall, I think law school is ridiculously expensive. It attracts too much privilege and discourages people from backgrounds where six figure debt is just too terrifying. I do believe several schools, including NYU, are making at least minor efforts to increase access for some, however.

Just to counter this, the main reason people are so afraid of the law school debt is not because they fear that some unexpected tragedy like cancer, a car accident, etc. will occur and impact their ability to pay. It is because there is a real chance that BigLaw could not work out and then you are yet another law school graduate in a terrible legal market without a job to service that non-dischargeable debt. If one's "privilege of having parents with decent income" isn't going to cover the chance of defaulting simply due to a lack of high paying job, then how is using your reasoning of determining who deserves need correct?

It would seem that a school using that line of reasoning is again ignoring the glaring truth that many law school graduates take out crippling debt that often becomes unserviceable due to the job market, luck, or whatever the reason. I would assume your average law school graduate struggling to repay debt is not struggling due to an unforeseen emergency like cancer, an accident, etc.

That being said, I understand your point of view and just wanted to throw around the other side of the argument. Obviously, it is hard to truly get an idea of if a student will receive help form payments if they fall into some financial duress after graduation. However, I do feel like there should be a fiduciary standard for financial aid and admissions officers to not tell potential students to "not worry about the size of your loans" when it costs over $80k a year to attend their school for a profession that is hurting. I understand there simply isn't money for all applicants, but it feels flat out wrong that so many of us have been told by NYU to not make our law school decision based on debt considerations.

[SFrost]

Believe it or not, parents with a positive net worth (and a home) and a retirement fund are a certain level of privilege. Many people from middle class privilege don't understand the difference between financial hardship and 'not having enough money for every eventuality'.

[jbagelboy]

Believe it or not, parents with a positive net worth (and a home) and a retirement fund are a certain level of privilege. Many people from middle class privilege don't understand the difference between financial hardship and 'not having enough money for every eventuality'.

If you believe that students should make decisions with the expectation that their aging parents will take out second mortages/leverage the equity on their single family homes to support excessive student debt obligations (or that this may serve as a counterbalance to aid), then you and I just fundamentally disagree about values of basic fiscal solvency and the role of universities and higher education cost as a stabilizing and/or destabilizing force in our society.

[03152016]

I was surprised at getting $0 merit/need. I have no savings because I throw all of my income at my (formerly) gargantuan UG loans, no assets, and no financial support from family since before I graduated high school. I was sure they'd throw at least a token amount of aid my way. I suspect the "need based aid" doesn't trickle down to ED apps (doing that was such a mistake, I really didn't need the boost with my 179).

I've been back and forth a million times about whether to attend this year or try to squeeze $60k out of Duke/UVA next cycle. Battling UG debt for the last four years has been a nightmare; I still can't wrap my head around taking out four times that amount.