Is a two page resume acceptable here?

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UVA2B
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby UVA2B » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:55 am

rpupkin wrote:
burner wrote:I don't know if you're a Vet

I am not a Vet. But I've reviewed applications/resumes from Vets—both as a judicial clerk in chambers and as an associate at a law firm—and I haven't noticed that their resumes provide the sort of detail you're talking about.

I think being a Vet is generally a boost, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that Vets leave military experience off of their resumes. But the notion that Vets need (or are expected) to provide significant detail about their various experiences seems off to me.


It is off. Veterans don't need extra space to explain their military experience. They often need help in translating their experience into terms a civilian would understand, but that doesn't require extra space on a resume.

Per usual, you're spot on rpupkin.

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burner
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby burner » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:15 am

I guess my experience is anecdotal, but what the crux of what I'm trying to say is extra experience is just that, extra experience. Personally, I had 8 year WE before law school, and 4 years military before my WE with two deployments. That, with my 4 legal internships, amounted to two pages. When I went to DOJ HR resume clinics (while I was a DOJ intern), they asked if they could use my resume as an example for military folks. Take it for what it's worth- I'm not advocating for someone to ramble on about their similar research and writing experiences as a judicial clerk/extern, but I guess what I'm saying is that if your resume is two pages, it better be worth the read.

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burner
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby burner » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:19 am

rpupkin wrote:I doubt you need more than one page. (By the way, if your "6 positions during law school at firms/judicial internships" are taking up more than a third of your resume, then something is wrong. I'm sure you can edit that stuff down significantly.)

If feel like you must exceed a page, then put your main resume on one page, and then add an attachment for publications.

PS for the purpose of this thread, whole heatedly agree with this

jimmythecatdied6
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby jimmythecatdied6 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:04 pm

A two page resume is not acceptable. Easy answer

dabigchina
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby dabigchina » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:01 pm

I agree with everything above. If Elon musk can fit his resume on one page, so can you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.busine ... age-2016-4

CourCour
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby CourCour » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:21 pm

I have what I think is a creative one page resume. PM me your email and I'll share.

EDM
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby EDM » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:45 am

I've always followed this advice in Matthew Butterick's Typography for Lawyers (page 194 of the first edition):

"Unless a potential employer demands one page, feel free to make your résumé two pages. Or longer, if necessary. This will ease your typographic problems. Two caveats, however. Don't assume a reader will get past the first page--put the most important information up front. And when I say 'if necessary,' remember you're writing for a potential employer, not your mom. My résumé fits on two pages. I'll bet yours can too."

For what it's worth, my résumé is two pages long (not a full second page though), although perhaps I have more atypical things to talk about than the average young lawyer/law student. Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé. Good luck!

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Rowinguy2009
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Rowinguy2009 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:35 am

EDM wrote:I've always followed this advice in Matthew Butterick's Typography for Lawyers (page 194 of the first edition):

"Unless a potential employer demands one page, feel free to make your résumé two pages. Or longer, if necessary. This will ease your typographic problems. Two caveats, however. Don't assume a reader will get past the first page--put the most important information up front. And when I say 'if necessary,' remember you're writing for a potential employer, not your mom. My résumé fits on two pages. I'll bet yours can too."

For what it's worth, my résumé is two pages long (not a full second page though), although perhaps I have more atypical things to talk about than the average young lawyer/law student. Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé. Good luck!


I agree with all of this. When a lot of people talk about resumes they talk as if having a one page resume is the goal. It's not. Having the strongest resume possible, that will cause you to stand out in a positive way, is the goal. Having a bunch of extraneous fluff will make your resume weak, but so will taking out helpful stuff just so you can achieve the supposed "goal" of having a one page resume. IMO, even if the material is only mildly helpful/impressive, it could put you over the edge when you are being compared to similar candidates.

Make two versions if you have to, a two page version and a one page version, and see which you think if stronger. I did this exercise myself, while in law school, and felt very confident that the two page version was better (and I've had a two pager ever since graduating about five years ago).

lolwat
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby lolwat » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:09 pm

I don't think you need to describe what you did during law school jobs. That will save a lot of space. I'm 5-10 years out of law school with 6 law school jobs and 3 pre-law school jobs on a one-page resume.


Jeez. Wouldn't at some point the sheer numbers start getting to be too much? I deleted all my pre and during-law school jobs in favor of just all of my post-law school jobs. I also spend a few lines describing what I've been doing at my current job though.

Regarding the whole vet thing--coming from someone who has absolutely no experience with any of that, if I see you're a vet, you're getting the vet boost (if I'm giving one) as it is. If I ask further about what you did, or if it's a conversation that naturally comes up during an interview, then you have the opportunity to explain. I'll note that the OP explains later about having, basically, 12 years' of work experience (8 years WE + 4 years military) and four legal internships. I think during law school, at least some of that is worth noting. Would I put every job? I dunno. It might be just as strong to summarize what you did rather than list out every single employer and position you've ever held. But more a case-by-case basis there.

When a lot of people talk about resumes they talk as if having a one page resume is the goal. It's not. Having the strongest resume possible, that will cause you to stand out in a positive way, is the goal. Having a bunch of extraneous fluff will make your resume weak, but so will taking out helpful stuff just so you can achieve the supposed "goal" of having a one page resume. IMO, even if the material is only mildly helpful/impressive, it could put you over the edge when you are being compared to similar candidates.


I agree wholeheartedly that the goal is to have the strongest resume possible. But I also think the general idea (which I likewise agree with) is that for the vast majority of people in this profession (certain things like academia excluded), a one page resume will often be the strongest. Two pages to discuss representative matters/deals or publications, etc. I really believe few people have backgrounds that are truly exceptions to this general rule--and, at least, definitely fewer than the number of people who think they are exceptions. (Not singling anyone out here, just in general.)

For example, people often talk about having pre-law school WE and years of experience and etc. etc. That's great, and I don't mean to discount pre-law school WE, but how much of the detail is truly helpful? Unless it's something very interesting or directly on point with what we're doing at the firm, I personally couldn't care less except in very broad generalities.

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rpupkin
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:22 pm

EDM wrote:Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé.

To be clear, I don't think anyone will get dinged just because they submit a two-page resume. It's not unprofessional to submit a multi-page resume, and it's not an etiquette breach or anything like that. But as I suggested upthread, and as the guy you quoted also seems to believe, there's a decent chance that anything past the first page will not be read.

Look, if you really want to submit a two-page (or a three-page) resume, then go ahead. I'll just say that I have never--not once--seen a multi-page resume from a law student or recent grad that wouldn't have been stronger as a single-page resume.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:29 pm

For law school internships/summerassociate spots, would you guys put this in a section on its own or just under professional experience? If so, what would you name that section (internships? temporary positions?)?

I'm trying to cut space too and I liked the prior suggestions about cutting the bullets under each internship but now I just have 5 back to back 1 liners which look weird:

Professional Experience
Associate, Skadden, NY
-did doc review
-did more doc review
-did a lot more doc review
-drafted 1 motion

Associate, Ropes and Gray, Boston
-did doc review
-did more doc review
-did a lot more doc review

intern 1, ABC corp.
intern 2, XYZ corp,
Summer associate, Skadden
intern 3, judge 1
intern 4, doj
intern 5, doj

lolwat
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby lolwat » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For law school internships/summerassociate spots, would you guys put this in a section on its own or just under professional experience? If so, what would you name that section (internships? temporary positions?)?

I'm trying to cut space too and I liked the prior suggestions about cutting the bullets under each internship but now I just have 5 back to back 1 liners which look weird:

Professional Experience
Associate, Skadden, NY
-did doc review
-did more doc review
-did a lot more doc review
-drafted 1 motion

Associate, Ropes and Gray, Boston
-did doc review
-did more doc review
-did a lot more doc review

intern 1, ABC corp.
intern 2, XYZ corp,
Summer associate, Skadden
intern 3, judge 1
intern 4, doj
intern 5, doj


These would all go under professional experience for me but I think I handle them differently than others might or might not. Mine would probably look something closer to:

Professional Experience

Skadden, NYC (dates)
Summer Associate (___) (could be trickier if SA wasn't in NYC, but basically i'd try to combine the SA and associate)
Associate (___)

Ropes and Gray, Boston (dates)
Associate

ABC Corp. (dates)
intern 1

XYZ Corp. (dates)
Intern 2

Judge 1 (or Court 1) (dates)
Intern 3

DOJ (dates)
Intern 4

DOJ (dates)
Intern 5

It makes everything into 2+ lines which eats space but I think it tends to look a little better that way
I would probably also think about whether all of those internships are really worth listing at this point. Maybe selectively depending on what you're tailoring the resume for? As I think I mentioned in a previous post, I don't even bother listing my summer and other law school jobs anymore. Only my post-LS stuff.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:35 pm

rpupkin wrote:
EDM wrote:Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé.

To be clear, I don't think anyone will get dinged just because they submit a two-page resume. It's not unprofessional to submit a multi-page resume, and it's not an etiquette breach or anything like that. But as I suggested upthread, and as the guy you quoted also seems to believe, there's a decent chance that anything past the first page will not be read.

Look, if you really want to submit a two-page (or a three-page) resume, then go ahead. I'll just say that I have never--not once--seen a multi-page resume from a law student or recent grad that wouldn't have been stronger as a single-page resume.


The only law students with sufficient experience to justify a two-page resume are at Yale, and even if you do it, you still look like a douchebag. But then again, if you have a two-page resume, I suppose you don't care about being around douchebags.

jimmythecatdied6
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby jimmythecatdied6 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
EDM wrote:Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé.

To be clear, I don't think anyone will get dinged just because they submit a two-page resume. It's not unprofessional to submit a multi-page resume, and it's not an etiquette breach or anything like that. But as I suggested upthread, and as the guy you quoted also seems to believe, there's a decent chance that anything past the first page will not be read.

Look, if you really want to submit a two-page (or a three-page) resume, then go ahead. I'll just say that I have never--not once--seen a multi-page resume from a law student or recent grad that wouldn't have been stronger as a single-page resume.


The only law students with sufficient experience to justify a two-page resume are at Yale, and even if you do it, you still look like a douchebag. But then again, if you have a two-page resume, I suppose you don't care about being around douchebags.


Oops. Accidental anon.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby ggocat » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:28 am

lolwat wrote:
I don't think you need to describe what you did during law school jobs. That will save a lot of space. I'm 5-10 years out of law school with 6 law school jobs and 3 pre-law school jobs on a one-page resume.


Jeez. Wouldn't at some point the sheer numbers start getting to be too much?

Yeah, I'm sure it could. I'll probably start cutting older jobs first or deleting all but one or two lines for law school awards/activities.

lolwat wrote:These would all go under professional experience for me but I think I handle them differently than others might or might not. Mine would probably look something closer to:
. . . .

I do it the same way. Only have one post-law school job, which is why the other stuff still fits.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:15 pm

OP here, didn't expect this thread to take off haha, thanks for all the feedback. Y'all will be happy to know i got everything down to 1 page by really shrinking down my job descriptions.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
EDM wrote:Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé.

To be clear, I don't think anyone will get dinged just because they submit a two-page resume. It's not unprofessional to submit a multi-page resume, and it's not an etiquette breach or anything like that. But as I suggested upthread, and as the guy you quoted also seems to believe, there's a decent chance that anything past the first page will not be read.

Look, if you really want to submit a two-page (or a three-page) resume, then go ahead. I'll just say that I have never--not once--seen a multi-page resume from a law student or recent grad that wouldn't have been stronger as a single-page resume.


The only law students with sufficient experience to justify a two-page resume are at Yale, and even if you do it, you still look like a douchebag. But then again, if you have a two-page resume, I suppose you don't care about being around douchebags.


YLS 2L/3L here chiming in to say that nearly all my colleagues have enough legit experience to populate a two-page resume, and judges and employers seem to love it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:YLS 2L/3L here chiming in to say that nearly all my colleagues have enough legit experience to populate a two-page resume, and judges and employers seem to love it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I just pulled the resumes of the last seven YLS grads we hired at my firm, all of whom had previously clerked. None of them submitted multi-page resumes.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 pm

alternatively maybe judges and employers love the candidates in spite of it?

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rpupkin
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:55 am

pancakes3 wrote:alternatively maybe judges and employers love the candidates in spite of it?

I applied to law school with a 4.0 GPA and a 178 LSAT. I made three typos in my personal statement and yet I was still admitted to every school in the T14. I guess the top law schools love typos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the problem with anecdotes related to something that's fairly minor. Although I honestly believe that almost everyone is better off with a one-page resume, it's unlikely that the length of your resume--or really anything about your resume--is going to make or break your clerkship application.

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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:48 am

rpupkin wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:alternatively maybe judges and employers love the candidates in spite of it?

I applied to law school with a 4.0 GPA and a 178 LSAT. I made three typos in my personal statement and yet I was still admitted to every school in the T14. I guess the top law schools love typos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the problem with anecdotes related to something that's fairly minor. Although I honestly believe that almost everyone is better off with a one-page resume, it's unlikely that the length of your resume--or really anything about your resume--is going to make or break your clerkship application.


Where there is a fairly obvious causal relationship between the depth and breadth of substantive experience on a resume for both (1) admission into Y, for instance, and (2) serious consideration by top judges and employers, there is clearly none between (or the causal chain runs counter for) typos and law school admission. Your analogy painfully misconstrues my argument using a basic logical fallacy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:alternatively maybe judges and employers love the candidates in spite of it?

I applied to law school with a 4.0 GPA and a 178 LSAT. I made three typos in my personal statement and yet I was still admitted to every school in the T14. I guess the top law schools love typos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the problem with anecdotes related to something that's fairly minor. Although I honestly believe that almost everyone is better off with a one-page resume, it's unlikely that the length of your resume--or really anything about your resume--is going to make or break your clerkship application.


Where there is a fairly obvious causal relationship between the depth and breadth of substantive experience on a resume for both (1) admission into Y, for instance, and (2) serious consideration by top judges and employers, there is clearly none between (or the causal chain runs counter for) typos and law school admission. Your analogy painfully misconstrues my argument using a basic logical fallacy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You’re assuming that all 2 pages are merited and that the 2 pages doesn’t instead reveal an inability to focus/pare down/avoid padding. Maybe that’s the case for all Yale students but there are lots of other applicants out there.

(FWIW I applied to clerkships with a two page resume so I clearly don’t think it’s a problem, I just don’t think the above is universally correct. I also worked for 15 years before law school, and I use a single-page resume now.)

jimmythecatdied6
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby jimmythecatdied6 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
EDM wrote:Also, when reviewing clerkship candidates, our chambers does not dock anyone for having a multiple-page résumé.

To be clear, I don't think anyone will get dinged just because they submit a two-page resume. It's not unprofessional to submit a multi-page resume, and it's not an etiquette breach or anything like that. But as I suggested upthread, and as the guy you quoted also seems to believe, there's a decent chance that anything past the first page will not be read.

Look, if you really want to submit a two-page (or a three-page) resume, then go ahead. I'll just say that I have never--not once--seen a multi-page resume from a law student or recent grad that wouldn't have been stronger as a single-page resume.


The only law students with sufficient experience to justify a two-page resume are at Yale, and even if you do it, you still look like a douchebag. But then again, if you have a two-page resume, I suppose you don't care about being around douchebags.


YLS 2L/3L here chiming in to say that nearly all my colleagues have enough legit experience to populate a two-page resume, and judges and employers seem to love it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Most judges and employers have two-page resumes. They probably do love it. Your peers probably do not. But you probably don't consider your peers to be "peers". ;)

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rpupkin
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby rpupkin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:alternatively maybe judges and employers love the candidates in spite of it?

I applied to law school with a 4.0 GPA and a 178 LSAT. I made three typos in my personal statement and yet I was still admitted to every school in the T14. I guess the top law schools love typos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the problem with anecdotes related to something that's fairly minor. Although I honestly believe that almost everyone is better off with a one-page resume, it's unlikely that the length of your resume--or really anything about your resume--is going to make or break your clerkship application.


Where there is a fairly obvious causal relationship between the depth and breadth of substantive experience on a resume for both (1) admission into Y, for instance, and (2) serious consideration by top judges and employers, there is clearly none between (or the causal chain runs counter for) typos and law school admission. Your analogy painfully misconstrues my argument using a basic logical fallacy.

There's definitely some poor logical reasoning going on here, but I don't think it's coming from me.

Longtimecoming19
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Re: Is a two page resume acceptable here?

Postby Longtimecoming19 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:31 am

98% of law student/young lawyer thinking that they need a two-page resume stems from a dramatic overestimate of (1) how impressive their accomplishments/experiences are, and (2) how much employers care about the details of these things. Curing oneself of this self-impressedness virtually always helps one get one's resume down to a single page. FWIW, as a law clerk, I never showed/recommended to my judge a clerkship applicant who had submitted a two-page resume. While it wasn't a per se disqualification, it was something I actively considered a negative - it suggested that the applicant had a sufficiently high opinion of her/himself that they think their experiences/achievements are too important to be condensed/pruned.




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