condescending fellow clerks

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:42 pm

Quichelorraine wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hello all,

I am currently doing a clerkship. There are several clerks in my courthouse. A couple are HYS (or whatever the acronym is) and I felt that they're incredibly condescending to me.


I know you said "HYS," but out of curiosity: is it one school among them in particular? Because during my COA clerkship year, the condescension flowed freely from one main offender and much less so from the other two...


I am curious as well. See, while it could be a misunderstanding, there are definitely law school cultures, that at least loosely apply. As someone who came from a much less than glittering background, I can say that yes, I have been treated very differently by people at one of those schools than at the others. And at least in my case, I think everyone can guess which school that is. I'm sure there are bad people at every school, but it seems to me that one has a higher number than the others.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Nebby » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:44 pm

Feel free to admit that it's only the HLS clerk being condescending

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unlicensedpotato
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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby unlicensedpotato » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:04 pm

This was already hinted at earlier but: if y'all are 2017 law school graduates, none of you know shit about anything. First year associates at firms get knocked down real quick. I would imagine for clerking it just takes a little longer.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:10 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:
lavarman84 wrote: I'm not seeing it. As a person who was on a journal, I'd tell them they made the right move.

I didn't pull that example out of thin air. It's something that I was "kindly made aware of" during my 2L summer.

lavarman84 wrote: It really doesn't take much effort to be a normal person and treat people right. If you feel you have to walk on eggshells because you will upset the other clerks (who are also going to have stellar credentials), you are doing so because you think you are superior, and that's the problem.

You might also be doing so because you've accidentally offended some people by failing to frame your lack of journal participation in the correct terms. Once one is aware of these things then they're easy to navigate. I agree that walking on eggshells can be a sign of a superiority complex. I'm just trying to point out that it might also be an attempt at kindness. But perhaps that too is suspect.

The main point is that all new grads are insecure and that everyone should show grace to one another at the margins.


Well, I'd just avoid whoever made you aware of it. You gotta have some major insecurity issues to be offended over that.

Maybe I overestimate lawyers when I assume they aren't sensitive about everything.

This isn't really intended to bust your balls, but haven't you previously pretty much described yourself as arrogant/apparently not sensitive about anything? I don't think you should apply your own standards to everyone. How can (many) lawyers not be sensitive to this kind of thing when they spend three years being ranked against each other and competing for jobs based on those rankings? I think the journal example is a really good one of how different expectations at different schools can lead to sort of tone issues.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Quichelorraine wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hello all,

I am currently doing a clerkship. There are several clerks in my courthouse. A couple are HYS (or whatever the acronym is) and I felt that they're incredibly condescending to me.


I know you said "HYS," but out of curiosity: is it one school among them in particular? Because during my COA clerkship year, the condescension flowed freely from one main offender and much less so from the other two...


I am curious as well. See, while it could be a misunderstanding, there are definitely law school cultures, that at least loosely apply. As someone who came from a much less than glittering background, I can say that yes, I have been treated very differently by people at one of those schools than at the others. And at least in my case, I think everyone can guess which school that is. I'm sure there are bad people at every school, but it seems to me that one has a higher number than the others.


Everyone knows it's H. Harvard grads are always the most insufferable when it comes to prestige whoring. It's rarely happened that I assumed a law student / lawyer went to Harvard from the way they behaved and they didn't.
Last edited by Mr. Blackacre on Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby sparty99 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hello all,

I am currently doing a clerkship. There are several clerks in my courthouse. A couple are HYS (or whatever the acronym is) and I felt that they're incredibly condescending to me. I graduated at a high ranking at my T1 school and fortunately got a clerkship (which was always my goal). I was afraid it was just me being paranoid (imposter syndrome), but my co-clerk brought up how condescending they were to me. How do I respond? Should I speak up? Should I just not deal with it and play the long game? Let them realize it.

My original plan was just to not engage. but my co-clerk said something that got me thinking.

This is also a warning to all of you to keep it humble and check yourself. Don't be a jerk.


Quit being a loser and be condescending back.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby lavarman84 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:57 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:
lavarman84 wrote: I'm not seeing it. As a person who was on a journal, I'd tell them they made the right move.

I didn't pull that example out of thin air. It's something that I was "kindly made aware of" during my 2L summer.

lavarman84 wrote: It really doesn't take much effort to be a normal person and treat people right. If you feel you have to walk on eggshells because you will upset the other clerks (who are also going to have stellar credentials), you are doing so because you think you are superior, and that's the problem.

You might also be doing so because you've accidentally offended some people by failing to frame your lack of journal participation in the correct terms. Once one is aware of these things then they're easy to navigate. I agree that walking on eggshells can be a sign of a superiority complex. I'm just trying to point out that it might also be an attempt at kindness. But perhaps that too is suspect.

The main point is that all new grads are insecure and that everyone should show grace to one another at the margins.


Well, I'd just avoid whoever made you aware of it. You gotta have some major insecurity issues to be offended over that.

Maybe I overestimate lawyers when I assume they aren't sensitive about everything.

This isn't really intended to bust your balls, but haven't you previously pretty much described yourself as arrogant/apparently not sensitive about anything? I don't think you should apply your own standards to everyone. How can (many) lawyers not be sensitive to this kind of thing when they spend three years being ranked against each other and competing for jobs based on those rankings? I think the journal example is a really good one of how different expectations at different schools can lead to sort of tone issues.


To some degree. There are a few things that I am sensitive about (I think that's true of everyone), but I am arrogant and very content with myself. I guess I shouldn't apply my own standards to everyone. Problem is that I see things from my own POV, so it's not something I really recognize until someone explains it. But I am being unfair here since people tried explaining it. It's just hard for me to understand why someone might feel threatened by those things. IMO, that's projecting your own insecurities on someone else. Just be happy with whom you are. If you're an Art. III clerk, you're obviously an impressive individual.

Anyways, you're right. I'm not being very empathetic here. I should be more understanding of why it might be challenging.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Wild Card » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:23 am

Every year, NYU Law hosts a judicial clerkship event where past and current clerks make themselves available to network with students.

And every year, the 2d Circuit clerks huddle around each other in a tight circle formation and refuse to speak with anybody.

I have no idea why the hell they bother showing up if they literally physically exclude other people.

What I'm trying to say is, those people are mentally-ill; don't let them get you down, even if their weird and irrational behavior drives you nuts.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby lolwat » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:17 pm

lavarman84 wrote:To some degree. There are a few things that I am sensitive about (I think that's true of everyone), but I am arrogant and very content with myself. I guess I shouldn't apply my own standards to everyone. Problem is that I see things from my own POV, so it's not something I really recognize until someone explains it. But I am being unfair here since people tried explaining it. It's just hard for me to understand why someone might feel threatened by those things. IMO, that's projecting your own insecurities on someone else. Just be happy with whom you are. If you're an Art. III clerk, you're obviously an impressive individual.

Anyways, you're right. I'm not being very empathetic here. I should be more understanding of why it might be challenging.


Don't worry, I'm the same way. (And my girlfriend is the exact opposite; that might be the only reason why I'm a little more understanding about these issues being potentially challenging for people.) :)

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:38 pm

I was an AIII clerk and I am not really that impressive at all. :lol: and I generally agree that this isn't something to obsess over (like the answer to the question is definitely "Harvard"). Also, I don't care if someone did or didn't do journal. But coming from a school where there's good reason to fight to get on LR to maximize your chances at the higher end jobs, I can see if someone from HYS said "oh I decided not to do journal," you might have the gut reaction "must be nice to be at a school where you don't have to do LR to get this job." I don't think it would bother me, personally, unless the other person was otherwise snooty, but I can see it having an effect the speaker didn't intend.

Also re: condescending clerks: I was at clerk orientation for my (beloved but considered by many to be) flyover district, and it included a panel of judges talking about clerky stuff. One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby grand inquisitor » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."

that is unreal

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby lolwat » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But coming from a school where there's good reason to fight to get on LR to maximize your chances at the higher end jobs, I can see if someone from HYS said "oh I decided not to do journal," you might have the gut reaction "must be nice to be at a school where you don't have to do LR to get this job." I don't think it would bother me, personally, unless the other person was otherwise snooty, but I can see it having an effect the speaker didn't intend.


Actually I think you see examples of this kind of stuff on TLS every so often especially in the LE forum. Like the post starts off "I'm xxx at a t6 school and xxx yyy zzz" and I get to the end of the post and just want to flip off the kid. :p

Also re: condescending clerks: I was at clerk orientation for my (beloved but considered by many to be) flyover district, and it included a panel of judges talking about clerky stuff. One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."


Wao.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:56 pm

Yeah, it's where a lot of the comments about humblebragging come from, I think.

And yeah, everyone was FLOORED by that dude. I hope he was trying to make some completely different kind of joke and it just came out wrong, but...

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Quichelorraine » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:23 pm

grand inquisitor wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."

that is unreal


Hah. To me it sounds far from unreal. I heard comments like that directed at the Mags and their clerks constantly. It was disgusting (especially coming from District Court clerks; dude, you know that the Mag does basically all of the work in the case before it gets handed to you on a little dispositive silver platter, right?).

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby los blancos » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:42 pm

I would be shocked to actually hear something like that but when you think about it it's really not surprising at all that the most selective jobs in this profession are filled with terrible human beings.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:30 pm

los blancos wrote:I would be shocked to actually hear something like that but when you think about it it's really not surprising at all that the most selective jobs in this profession are filled with terrible human beings.


I'll never forget the top student in my 1L class at a T20. He transferred to HLS. I can only hope that he brought his mechanical keyboard into those exams too.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:55 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I was an AIII clerk and I am not really that impressive at all. :lol: and I generally agree that this isn't something to obsess over (like the answer to the question is definitely "Harvard"). Also, I don't care if someone did or didn't do journal. But coming from a school where there's good reason to fight to get on LR to maximize your chances at the higher end jobs, I can see if someone from HYS said "oh I decided not to do journal," you might have the gut reaction "must be nice to be at a school where you don't have to do LR to get this job." I don't think it would bother me, personally, unless the other person was otherwise snooty, but I can see it having an effect the speaker didn't intend.

Also re: condescending clerks: I was at clerk orientation for my (beloved but considered by many to be) flyover district, and it included a panel of judges talking about clerky stuff. One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."


I don't believe that, Nony. You may not have out of this world credentials on paper (or you might, I don't know), but I'm sure the judge saw something in you that was incredibly impressive to him (or her). :)
Last edited by lavarman84 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:58 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I was an AIII clerk and I am not really that impressive at all. :lol: and I generally agree that this isn't something to obsess over (like the answer to the question is definitely "Harvard"). Also, I don't care if someone did or didn't do journal. But coming from a school where there's good reason to fight to get on LR to maximize your chances at the higher end jobs, I can see if someone from HYS said "oh I decided not to do journal," you might have the gut reaction "must be nice to be at a school where you don't have to do LR to get this job." I don't think it would bother me, personally, unless the other person was otherwise snooty, but I can see it having an effect the speaker didn't intend.

Also re: condescending clerks: I was at clerk orientation for my (beloved but considered by many to be) flyover district, and it included a panel of judges talking about clerky stuff. One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."


I don't believe that, Nony. You may not have out of this world credentials on paper (or you might, I don't know), but I'm sure the judge saw something in you that was incredibly impressive to him. :)


All I can say is that you should always put "TLS MOD" at the top of your resume. You wouldn't believe how many doors that will open.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:59 pm

Quichelorraine wrote:
grand inquisitor wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."

that is unreal


Hah. To me it sounds far from unreal. I heard comments like that directed at the Mags and their clerks constantly. It was disgusting (especially coming from District Court clerks; dude, you know that the Mag does basically all of the work in the case before it gets handed to you on a little dispositive silver platter, right?).


That's really too bad. The Mag clerks at my courthouse are all smart and kind people, and the Mag judges are all very likable and kind people. I'll never understand what possesses people to act that way.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby Nebby » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:07 pm

So we're all coming around to my position that, by and large, clerks are lemons?

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:09 pm

Nebby wrote:So we're all coming around to my position that, by and large, clerks are lemons?


Well they're largely from HLS and Williams, so I don't know why anyone would expect otherwise.
Last edited by MarkinKansasCity on Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:09 pm

Nebby wrote:So we're all coming around to my position that, by and large, clerks are lemons?

NO. Go away Nebby.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:11 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Quichelorraine wrote:
grand inquisitor wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:One of the circuit court clerks said to the person next to them, "it's cute they let the non-AIII judges take part in this."

that is unreal


Hah. To me it sounds far from unreal. I heard comments like that directed at the Mags and their clerks constantly. It was disgusting (especially coming from District Court clerks; dude, you know that the Mag does basically all of the work in the case before it gets handed to you on a little dispositive silver platter, right?).


That's really too bad. The Mag clerks at my courthouse are all smart and kind people, and the Mag judges are all very likable and kind people. I'll never understand what possesses people to act that way.

In my case, it was especially dumb because the mag judge on the panel was like the smartest woman ever who basically made the whole courthouse function. And yeah, all the mag clerks I know are super smart people. It's just pointless snottiness.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:12 pm

MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Nebby wrote:So we're all coming around to my position that, by and large, clerks are lemons?


Well they're largely from HLS and Williams, so I don't know why anyone would expect otherwise.

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Re: condescending fellow clerks

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:13 pm

okay not really




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