Clerkships so white

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lavarman84
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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby lavarman84 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:41 pm

curry1 wrote:Is this a joke? While lsat +gpa combo is not super predictive for individuals, it is for large groups (i.e Asian Americans). If we picked a top school that published honors graduates, I'm quite sure we would find a close match between the percentage of AA's enrolled and those with "top" grades - despite anecdata in this thread to the contrary. Another factor that might influence the perceived lack of Asian Americans in clerkships is that international students might be disproportionately Asian and counted as Asian American. International students would be unlikely to apply for fed clerkships regardless of grades, because they wouldn't be paid for their work.


What's the typical law review composition at top schools?

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby curry1 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:29 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
curry1 wrote:Is this a joke? While lsat +gpa combo is not super predictive for individuals, it is for large groups (i.e Asian Americans). If we picked a top school that published honors graduates, I'm quite sure we would find a close match between the percentage of AA's enrolled and those with "top" grades - despite anecdata in this thread to the contrary. Another factor that might influence the perceived lack of Asian Americans in clerkships is that international students might be disproportionately Asian and counted as Asian American. International students would be unlikely to apply for fed clerkships regardless of grades, because they wouldn't be paid for their work.


What's the typical law review composition at top schools?


I don't know about "typical," and it's a difficult question to answer due to Asian Americans (and others) having ambiguous last names. Based on just first/last name, I went through Berkeley's LR and identified ~30/~120 LR people who are probably Asian - 25%. http://www.californialawreview.org/masthead/ Asians are ~13% of Berkeley's student body. If this carries forward to other top schools, (making the assumption that LR is a reliable proxy for top grades), it would suggest that something more nefarious is going on then "Asians mysteriously get low grades in law school despite having equal or higher entering stats to white students" and "only whites get coif."
Edit: I just applied the same process to HLR and came up with a figure of ~10/100, which is roughly in line with the ~12% who enter HLS per the 509. I may also be undercounting.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby rpupkin » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:02 pm

curry1 wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
curry1 wrote:Is this a joke? While lsat +gpa combo is not super predictive for individuals, it is for large groups (i.e Asian Americans). If we picked a top school that published honors graduates, I'm quite sure we would find a close match between the percentage of AA's enrolled and those with "top" grades - despite anecdata in this thread to the contrary. Another factor that might influence the perceived lack of Asian Americans in clerkships is that international students might be disproportionately Asian and counted as Asian American. International students would be unlikely to apply for fed clerkships regardless of grades, because they wouldn't be paid for their work.


What's the typical law review composition at top schools?


I don't know about "typical," and it's a difficult question to answer due to Asian Americans (and others) having ambiguous last names. Based on just first/last name, I went through Berkeley's LR and identified ~30/~120 LR people who are probably Asian - 25%. http://www.californialawreview.org/masthead/ Asians are ~13% of Berkeley's student body. If this carries forward to other top schools, (making the assumption that LR is a reliable proxy for top grades),

Why would you make that assumption? At most top schools these days, law review is pure write-on, with a diversity component throw in at some schools. Does Berkeley factor grades into law-review selection at all?

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby jd20132013 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:13 pm

Bach-City wrote:
jd20132013 wrote:one way would be to stop the charade that there's not a sufficient pool because there aren't enough black applicants in the top 5 percent of their T6 classes, as if a top 30 percent person at Harvard or Columbia can't do everything a top 5 percent can do


I think I read a Scalia article saying that a bad clerk can ruin an entire term for a judge. It's why they only pick from the very best people at the best schools where a professor goes to bat for them. Diversity doesn't count for much in those scenarios.


yeah my point was that there is no material difference within the ranges that i set out such that you have a meaningfully higher chance of getting a "bad" clerk, once you take into account (1) that people within those ranges would still be coming from at least one appellate clerkship and (2) the reality that the justices actually have the easiest jobs in the federal judiciary


that's why i called it a charade

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:35 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
curry1 wrote:Is this a joke? While lsat +gpa combo is not super predictive for individuals, it is for large groups (i.e Asian Americans). If we picked a top school that published honors graduates, I'm quite sure we would find a close match between the percentage of AA's enrolled and those with "top" grades - despite anecdata in this thread to the contrary. Another factor that might influence the perceived lack of Asian Americans in clerkships is that international students might be disproportionately Asian and counted as Asian American. International students would be unlikely to apply for fed clerkships regardless of grades, because they wouldn't be paid for their work.


What's the typical law review composition at top schools?


UVA's is extremely white (and male), despite reserving 5 seats each year for a diversity plan. I believe there has been only one black person on law review in the past 7 years (one person total, not per year).

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:45 am

rpupkin wrote:I hesitate to wade into this topic based on anecdotal observation, but I've noticed—based on reviewing clerkship applications—that Asians are not well represented among the top students at the top law schools. I'm sure you're right that Asians enter law school with equivalent undergrad GPA/LSAT stats but, for whatever reason, white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes.


That's a sweeping generalization about Asian Americans based on anecdotal evidence (which you admit) and, depending on your judge and his/her geographic location, a potentially unrepresentative sample. Simply take a look at the Yale Law Journal's current masthead: http://www.yalelawjournal.org/masthead/volume-127. Based solely on Asian-sounding names (underinclusive, at best), Asian Americans represent around 20% of YLJ's membership. A smaller, but still sizable, proportion of Asian Americans seem to be on HLR (https://harvardlawreview.org/about/) and SLR (https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/mastheads/). Given that Asians constitute ~10-15% of any given HYS graduating class, their comparable LR membership ratios don't indicate any grade/qualification disadvantage compared to white students. So to argue that "white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes" is a suspect claim and, even if true, replete with structural biases inherent to the legal profession (e.g., white male law professors/partners like mentoring white male kids).

ETA: LR membership also tends to attract students who are more interested in litigation than transactional work so, if anything, these LR stats would suggest that Asian American law students, especially the current generation, don't disproportionately prefer transactional work as others have insinuated to explain the discrepancy.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby rpupkin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:I hesitate to wade into this topic based on anecdotal observation, but I've noticed—based on reviewing clerkship applications—that Asians are not well represented among the top students at the top law schools. I'm sure you're right that Asians enter law school with equivalent undergrad GPA/LSAT stats but, for whatever reason, white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes.


That's a sweeping generalization about Asian Americans based on anecdotal evidence (which you admit) and, depending on your judge and his/her geographic location, a potentially unrepresentative sample. Simply take a look at the Yale Law Journal's current masthead: http://www.yalelawjournal.org/masthead/volume-127. Based solely on Asian-sounding names (underinclusive, at best), Asian Americans represent around 20% of YLJ's membership. A smaller, but still sizable, proportion of Asian Americans seem to be on HLR (https://harvardlawreview.org/about/) and SLR (https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/mastheads/). Given that Asians constitute ~10-15% of any given HYS graduating class, their comparable LR membership ratios don't indicate any grade/qualification disadvantage compared to white students. So to argue that "white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes" is a suspect claim and, even if true, replete with structural biases inherent to the legal profession (e.g., white male law professors/partners like mentoring white male kids).

As I noted a couple of posts back, I question the assumption that there is a relationship between grades and LR membership at the top law schools.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:19 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:I hesitate to wade into this topic based on anecdotal observation, but I've noticed—based on reviewing clerkship applications—that Asians are not well represented among the top students at the top law schools. I'm sure you're right that Asians enter law school with equivalent undergrad GPA/LSAT stats but, for whatever reason, white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes.


That's a sweeping generalization about Asian Americans based on anecdotal evidence (which you admit) and, depending on your judge and his/her geographic location, a potentially unrepresentative sample. Simply take a look at the Yale Law Journal's current masthead: http://www.yalelawjournal.org/masthead/volume-127. Based solely on Asian-sounding names (underinclusive, at best), Asian Americans represent around 20% of YLJ's membership. A smaller, but still sizable, proportion of Asian Americans seem to be on HLR (https://harvardlawreview.org/about/) and SLR (https://www.stanfordlawreview.org/mastheads/). Given that Asians constitute ~10-15% of any given HYS graduating class, their comparable LR membership ratios don't indicate any grade/qualification disadvantage compared to white students. So to argue that "white students appear to disproportionally get the top grades in law school classes" is a suspect claim and, even if true, replete with structural biases inherent to the legal profession (e.g., white male law professors/partners like mentoring white male kids).

As I noted a couple of posts back, I question the assumption that there is a relationship between grades and LR membership at the top law schools.


Your rejection of LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS, is nonsensical when you haven't provided additional empirical justification for your claim that Asian Americans underperform beyond "I reviewed some applications." Indeed, for many judges (mine included), LR at HYS is typically a sufficient condition for clerk hiring, so the wide disparity between LR membership and clerkship prospects for Asian Americans at top law schools again suggests something more sinister (read: racist) at play in the broader clerkship hiring market.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby rpupkin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Your rejection of LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS, is nonsensical when you haven't provided additional empirical justification for your claim that Asian Americans underperform beyond "I reviewed some applications."

I didn't make a claim; I shared an observation, which I characterized as anecdotal.

Here's an example of an actual claim: "There is a correlative and sometimes causal relationship between LR membership and law school performance at HYS." What is your evidence for that? I'd like to see the basis for your claim before I agree with your insulting (and, of course, anonymously posted) description of my skepticism as "nonsensical."

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:45 pm

rpupkin wrote:"There is a correlative and sometimes causal relationship between LR membership and law school performance at HYS."


Anonymous User wrote:LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS


Loving your misquote. These statements are substantively different.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby rpupkin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS

Loving your misquote. These statements are substantively different.

I think it's a fair characterization, but I'll use your quote instead. What is your basis for the bolded? (You can address the "and clerkship hiring" part too if you want, but I'm more interested in the "often correlative and sometimes causal" relationship that you claim exists between LR membership and law-school performance at HYS.)

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:34 pm

At Columbia anyway, LR makes a concerted effort to recruit URMs with the result that there are more blacks/hispanics than Asians on the LR. And most assuredly this does not correlated with academic performance in law school.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby lolwat » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Random thoughts since phone posting is counterproductive to coherent arguments sometimes!

the idea that grades and LR are connected probably depends on school (and sometimes that changes over time even). I think i stated my personal experience some posts back. When i was at my non t14, LR had a HUGE grade-on component. If you were in the top 10%, you had your pick of journals, and who the hell would pick something not the flagship? That left literally single digit openings on LR for the remaining 90% of the class of a couple hundred students. I think that's changed since then, and I have no idea what any other school does. It would be most interesting to know about the T6 in particular.

Also equally interesting to know is how many of those people pursue clerkships and how many are hired, stuff like that. people going into corp generally don't pursue clerkships. IP litigators might focus on fed circuit (and specific districts like edtx, d.del, etc) rather than "any clerkship anywhere you'd be willing to live for a year."

And the biggest unknown comes down to fit with a judge. We all know once you get to the interview stage it's all about fit and basically who the judge likes most out of the people they interviewed, because credentials are generally a non factor by that point. If a judge interviews a white guy and asian guy for one spot and ultimately hires the white guy, is racism at play? Who the fuck really knows?

It's one thing to point out disparities, it's another to jump to the racism conclusion.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:39 pm

Conversely, grades played almost no role at all in getting on LR at my non-T14. It's sort of interesting to look at where my LR compatriots ended up, because there's a really clear correlation between biglaw/clerkships and grades, not biglaw/clerkships and LR (recognizing my school doesn't tell you anything about T14s).

But if we're being anecdotal - in the three years I was in law school, LR had no black members, one Asian-American, and maybe two Hispanics (and I think one was by marriage). There was also a string of like over 10 years without a woman or POC EIC. Minority representation at my school wasn't very good overall and that's absolutely not representative of anything beyond those three years, but I think there are weird patterns to LR membership, especially if there isn't a diversity component to the application. (I think self selection is part of this - we had a tech journal and I know of a number of Asian-American students who chose to do that rather than try for LR, which I swear isn't me intending to reinforce a stereotype. And I am absolutely not suggesting non-white students at my school weren't capable of getting on law review by whatever means, just that it was certainly an issue of concern at my school that for various reasons, they didn't.)

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:47 pm

I think there's data showing that Asian-American law students slightly underperform relative to their LSAT scores, which are also slightly lower than LSAT scores for white test-takers. That kind of leads me to believe rpupkin's observation earlier in the thread, though my recollection of the data makes me think it only explains part of the disparity. Allowing judges free reign to indulge every (often suspect) personal preference is probably the main contributor.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby lolwat » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:48 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:(I think self selection is part of this - we had a tech journal and I know of a number of Asian-American students who chose to do that rather than try for LR, which I swear isn't me intending to reinforce a stereotype.)


Things like this present the kind of difficulties here though don't they? It can be difficult to know where self selection ends and racism starts. if I had been successful in getting the job I initially gunned for early in law school (IP lit) i might never have pursued a clerkship -- and then i'd just be another one of "those" asians. :)

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:54 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS

Loving your misquote. These statements are substantively different.

I think it's a fair characterization, but I'll use your quote instead. What is your basis for the bolded? (You can address the "and clerkship hiring" part too if you want, but I'm more interested in the "often correlative and sometimes causal" relationship that you claim exists between LR membership and law-school performance at HYS.)

Different anon. I hand-counted how many HLR editors in the 2017 graduating class got latin honors, using the list of names on the public HLR website and the Class of 2017 latin honors list (latter only available with an HLS login). Results as follows:

~85% of HLR's 2017 graduating class finished in the top 40% (cum laude or above)
~32% of HLR's 2017 graduating class finished in the top 10% (magna cum laude or above)

As far as the role grades and URM status play in getting onto HLR, their process is also explained on their public website:

Forty-six editors are invited to join the Review each year. Twenty editors are selected based solely on their competition scores. Seven editors, one from each 1L section, shall be selected based on an equally weighted combination of competition scores and 1L grades. Three editors shall be selected based on an equally weighted combination of competition scores and 1L grades, without regard to section. Sixteen editors shall be selected through a holistic but anonymous review that takes into account all available information.

Applicants who wish to make aspects of their identity available through the Law Review's holistic consideration process will have the opportunity to indicate their racial or ethnic identity, physical disability status, gender identity, first-generation college student status, and transfer status on a form accompanying the writing competition. Applicants also have the option of submitting an expository statement of no more than 150 words that identifies and describes aspects of their racial or ethnic identity, physical disability, gender identity, and/or socioeconomic background not fully captured by the categories provided on the form.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:22 pm

lolwat wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:(I think self selection is part of this - we had a tech journal and I know of a number of Asian-American students who chose to do that rather than try for LR, which I swear isn't me intending to reinforce a stereotype.)


Things like this present the kind of difficulties here though don't they? It can be difficult to know where self selection ends and racism starts. if I had been successful in getting the job I initially gunned for early in law school (IP lit) i might never have pursued a clerkship -- and then i'd just be another one of "those" asians. :)

Oh, I totally agree - didn't mean to suggest self-selection was some pure phenomenon unrelated to racism (though I can see how what I said came across that way). They're absolutely often related.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby rpupkin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:LR membership, an admittedly imperfect--albeit often correlative and sometimes causal--measure for law school performance and clerkship hiring at HYS

Loving your misquote. These statements are substantively different.

I think it's a fair characterization, but I'll use your quote instead. What is your basis for the bolded? (You can address the "and clerkship hiring" part too if you want, but I'm more interested in the "often correlative and sometimes causal" relationship that you claim exists between LR membership and law-school performance at HYS.)

Different anon. I hand-counted how many HLR editors in the 2017 graduating class got latin honors, using the list of names on the public HLR website and the Class of 2017 latin honors list (latter only available with an HLS login). Results as follows:

~85% of HLR's 2017 graduating class finished in the top 40% (cum laude or above)
~32% of HLR's 2017 graduating class finished in the top 10% (magna cum laude or above)

As far as the role grades and URM status play in getting onto HLR, their process is also explained on their public website:

Forty-six editors are invited to join the Review each year. Twenty editors are selected based solely on their competition scores. Seven editors, one from each 1L section, shall be selected based on an equally weighted combination of competition scores and 1L grades. Three editors shall be selected based on an equally weighted combination of competition scores and 1L grades, without regard to section. Sixteen editors shall be selected through a holistic but anonymous review that takes into account all available information.

Applicants who wish to make aspects of their identity available through the Law Review's holistic consideration process will have the opportunity to indicate their racial or ethnic identity, physical disability status, gender identity, first-generation college student status, and transfer status on a form accompanying the writing competition. Applicants also have the option of submitting an expository statement of no more than 150 words that identifies and describes aspects of their racial or ethnic identity, physical disability, gender identity, and/or socioeconomic background not fully captured by the categories provided on the form.

Thanks for taking the time to look all that up--it's good information. I didn't know that HLS still took 1L grades into account as part of its law-review selection process.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:44 pm

I'm black and I met the district judge I'm clerking for at a conference about how to get clerkships. All the judges on the panel were white and they all said something to the effect of "I'm looking for a clerk just like me." Many of them explained that they are looking for clerks with similar interests as them like skiing, mountain climbing, country music, etc. I was very skeptical of applying to clerkships after hearing that because the message I got from those judges was that they wanted someone who wasn't like me. Luckily, I met my judge who was the only one to push back on the panelists and question why they needed someone just like themselves. The lack of judicial diversity and possibly the lack of interest in diversity may very well may be a large part of the lack of diversity among clerks.

Also, bexause academia is not diverse, it's possible that it's difficult for diverse students to feel comfortable asking for recommendations or the students may take themselves out of the running because they don't think professors will pick up the phone on there behalf.

Finally, it also could be a money thing. Some diverse (t14 students in particular) who are first generation law students or just low ses can't spend a year making so little money when firms are offering them so much more money to help service their debt faster. This was a huge thing for me and I almost turned down my clerkship because if it.

Just my two cents.

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby ernie » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm black and I met the district judge I'm clerking for at a conference about how to get clerkships. All the judges on the panel were white and they all said something to the effect of "I'm looking for a clerk just like me." Many of them explained that they are looking for clerks with similar interests as them like skiing, mountain climbing, country music, etc. I was very skeptical of applying to clerkships after hearing that because the message I got from those judges was that they wanted someone who wasn't like me. Luckily, I met my judge who was the only one to push back on the panelists and question why they needed someone just like themselves. The lack of judicial diversity and possibly the lack of interest in diversity may very well may be a large part of the lack of diversity among clerks.

This is really telling, thanks for sharing it. (Also sounds like you work for a great judge)

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby ernie » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:30 pm

Also holy crap 40% of hls get latin honors? jeesus

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:07 am

ernie wrote:Also holy crap 40% of hls get latin honors? jeesus


Students on *Harvard Law Review*, not the whole school

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
ernie wrote:Also holy crap 40% of hls get latin honors? jeesus


Students on *Harvard Law Review*, not the whole school

Actually the post said that 85% of HLR get cum laude, which means you're in the top 40%, so Latin honors is 40% of the whole school. (That's not out of line for what I've see with other schools with Latin honors - a lot of people get cum laude.)

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Re: Clerkships so white

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:35 pm

Chicago is 2/3 grade-on.




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