Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:46 pm

rpupkin wrote:
FascinatedWanderer wrote:That's the least of the things you need to be aware of if you apply to Real.

Not to get sidetracked here, but he's a truly awful judge and you shouldn't go to him if you have other options.

Don't clerk for Real. I can't believe this is even a question.


This is the real take-away from this otherwise garbage thread.

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:35 am

lolwat wrote:To the original post: bottom half of HLS is competitive for many districts (including some CDCal, I think) and some less competitive COA judges in the Ninth (though that's more of a stretch and will depend a lot on recommender connections). Bottom half of YLS and (to a slightly lesser extent) SLS is competitive everywhere except for feeder clerkships, but it sounds like you're at HLS.


Really? If OP has 6/7 Hs from HLS I'd say they probably have a good shot at most circuits and depending on second year grades could even have a shot at semi-feeders if things don't work out.

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
lolwat wrote:To the original post: bottom half of HLS is competitive for many districts (including some CDCal, I think) and some less competitive COA judges in the Ninth (though that's more of a stretch and will depend a lot on recommender connections). Bottom half of YLS and (to a slightly lesser extent) SLS is competitive everywhere except for feeder clerkships, but it sounds like you're at HLS.


Really? If OP has 6/7 Hs from HLS I'd say they probably have a good shot at most circuits and depending on second year grades could even have a shot at semi-feeders if things don't work out.


Agreed, but just for the record, 6/7 Hs after 1L at HLS is nowhere close to the bottom half of the class. It's probably top 25%.

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:Agreed, but just for the record, 6/7 Hs after 1L at HLS is nowhere close to the bottom half of the class. It's probably top 25%.


^That seems about right. But, it might be a stretch for semi-feeders for OP even with a great 2L...

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:36 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: And (many of) today's students think this is a thing based on cues, explicit or implicit, from yesterday's; so, too, will (many of) tomorrow's. Good or bad, right or wrong, deserved or not.

Oh, I agree that students think it's a thing. When I write that "it's less of a thing than students think," I mean it's less of a thing in the legal-hiring market than students think. In other words, folks who make hiring decisions at firms and government agencies care less about 2/9/DC than most students assume they do.

If you clerk for a feeder (in any circuit), that can be a real boost even if you don't make it to SCOTUS. And there are generally more feeders in 2/9/DC (especially in CADC) than in the other circuits. Outside of feeder judges, though, the benefits of clerking in 2/9/DC are often marginal. Sure, if you want to work in a federal agency in DC after your clerkship, then CADC is a boost. And there are some regional benefits to clerking in CA2 or CA9 if you want to work in NY or Cali. Overall, though, clerking in 2/9/DC is not like going to HYS for law school: you're basically in the same position as someone who clerked for a judge in one of the other circuits.


My point was to raise the possibility that it's not just today's students who "think it's a thing." It's been a thing for years now, and some of yesterday's students are today's employers, or will be soon, or will be involved in those decisions soon. Obviously this is ultimately a matter of empirics: how many legal employers think it's a thing won't be determined by anecdotes or the friends one has in the legal hiring market or even small sample sizes. But I think it's a genuine possibility that the DC/2/9 prestige does filter into hiring decisions, if only (but not only) b/c it's been around for many years now, and the attractives (and therefore competitiveness) of some of those geographic regions intuitively lends credit to the notion, however implicit, in the minds of those doing hiring.

I understood your point the first time. My response was (and is) that your speculation doesn't play out in real life.

I'll give you this much: because students think that a DC/2/9 clerkship is more desirable (and also because some of the more desirable cities are in those circuits), students with better grades and credentials tend to get those clerkships. And to the extent that grades matter in post-clerkship hiring (and they often matter quite a bit), you'll see a correlation between the population of DC/2/9 clerks and the population who lands the more competitive jobs.

But the effect some are talking about ITT--that folks who make hiring decisions see DC/2/9, think "presitge!," and then give an applicant a bump--doesn't really exist.

I disagree with your oddly-confident-given-no-real-data global statement that the possibility I've raised simply "doesn't play out in real life." If somehow you have access to the inside decisions of many, many, many employers who hire clerks all across the country, and can therefore discount the possibility by climbing inside their heads to determine the causation v. correlation question, I admire your abilities.

I actually do have access to the inside decisions of multiple employers who prefer to hire former clerks. No, I of course don't have access to every single employer, and my knowledge is necessarily anecdotal, but I have relevant experience that puts me in a decent position to weigh in on this issue. For what it's worth, I started with your assumptions when I was in law school about 2/9/DC. My views changed after I started working.

As for your statement that "the possibility I've raised is more than mere speculation," I just don't see anything in your post that isn't speculation. I'm sure you sincerely believe what you're writing, but your argument seems to be based on a series of assumptions you're making about how a particular credential might be viewed.


In your experience how attuned is the legal market to judges' reputations? Would someone like Judge Wilkinson be widely known by firms across the country?

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby nothingtosee » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: And (many of) today's students think this is a thing based on cues, explicit or implicit, from yesterday's; so, too, will (many of) tomorrow's. Good or bad, right or wrong, deserved or not.

Oh, I agree that students think it's a thing. When I write that "it's less of a thing than students think," I mean it's less of a thing in the legal-hiring market than students think. In other words, folks who make hiring decisions at firms and government agencies care less about 2/9/DC than most students assume they do.

If you clerk for a feeder (in any circuit), that can be a real boost even if you don't make it to SCOTUS. And there are generally more feeders in 2/9/DC (especially in CADC) than in the other circuits. Outside of feeder judges, though, the benefits of clerking in 2/9/DC are often marginal. Sure, if you want to work in a federal agency in DC after your clerkship, then CADC is a boost. And there are some regional benefits to clerking in CA2 or CA9 if you want to work in NY or Cali. Overall, though, clerking in 2/9/DC is not like going to HYS for law school: you're basically in the same position as someone who clerked for a judge in one of the other circuits.


My point was to raise the possibility that it's not just today's students who "think it's a thing." It's been a thing for years now, and some of yesterday's students are today's employers, or will be soon, or will be involved in those decisions soon. Obviously this is ultimately a matter of empirics: how many legal employers think it's a thing won't be determined by anecdotes or the friends one has in the legal hiring market or even small sample sizes. But I think it's a genuine possibility that the DC/2/9 prestige does filter into hiring decisions, if only (but not only) b/c it's been around for many years now, and the attractives (and therefore competitiveness) of some of those geographic regions intuitively lends credit to the notion, however implicit, in the minds of those doing hiring.

I understood your point the first time. My response was (and is) that your speculation doesn't play out in real life.

I'll give you this much: because students think that a DC/2/9 clerkship is more desirable (and also because some of the more desirable cities are in those circuits), students with better grades and credentials tend to get those clerkships. And to the extent that grades matter in post-clerkship hiring (and they often matter quite a bit), you'll see a correlation between the population of DC/2/9 clerks and the population who lands the more competitive jobs.

But the effect some are talking about ITT--that folks who make hiring decisions see DC/2/9, think "presitge!," and then give an applicant a bump--doesn't really exist.

I disagree with your oddly-confident-given-no-real-data global statement that the possibility I've raised simply "doesn't play out in real life." If somehow you have access to the inside decisions of many, many, many employers who hire clerks all across the country, and can therefore discount the possibility by climbing inside their heads to determine the causation v. correlation question, I admire your abilities.

I actually do have access to the inside decisions of multiple employers who prefer to hire former clerks. No, I of course don't have access to every single employer, and my knowledge is necessarily anecdotal, but I have relevant experience that puts me in a decent position to weigh in on this issue. For what it's worth, I started with your assumptions when I was in law school about 2/9/DC. My views changed after I started working.

As for your statement that "the possibility I've raised is more than mere speculation," I just don't see anything in your post that isn't speculation. I'm sure you sincerely believe what you're writing, but your argument seems to be based on a series of assumptions you're making about how a particular credential might be viewed.


In your experience how attuned is the legal market to judges' reputations? Would someone like Judge Wilkinson be widely known by firms across the country?



Shiny people hire shiny people.

If you're applying to a firm where most of the lawyers grinded from TTTs then they won't care. If it's full of lawyers who themselves have shiny clerkships, then they'll know. Look at the bios of where you're applying (and the section you're applying for) and you'll figure it out pretty quick

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Re: Clerkship chances from bottom half of HYS

Postby rpupkin » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In your experience how attuned is the legal market to judges' reputations? Would someone like Judge Wilkinson be widely known by firms across the country?

Is Judge Wilkinson known to all lawyers at all law firms across the country? Surely not. But is he widely known by firms and practice groups that place extra value on a federal COA clerkship? Yes.



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