Judges who female or LGBT law clerks should avoid

[throwaway1919]

Guess the whisper network was right!

Here's my shocked face

[Mr. Blackacre]

About time.

Also that statement is absolute horseshit. Par for the course I guess.

[jbagelboy]

Here's my shocked face

Boom.

[jd20132013]

what are y'all referencing ?

Edit


Never mind. Ah. Well that's interesting.

[Nebby]

(As if most applicants even have to worry about getting hired by Kozinski...)

Interesting.

I was being flip, but I just meant he's an extremely selective judge. It's kind of like saying, "I've heard that Justice Alito is terrible to work for" (totally made up example, he's probably lovely) - theoretically useful information but most people aren't getting SCOTUS clerkships so it's not really a risk.

It was the choice to be dismissive that I thought was interesting.

Is that a passive-aggressive way of saying I should be concerned about third-hand anon info because it alleges sexism/homophobia?

Nope, but this is

QFNP:

Here's my shocked face

CC:

I offer advice about the clerkship process to mentees at my T14 law school. A number of classmates and professors have warned me to steer female students, in particular, away from Judge Kozinski. They have told me that while he can be cruel to all of his clerks, he sexually harasses his female clerks, for example, pressuring them to wear revealing outfits and making comments of a sexual nature about their appearances. I have additionally been warned that Judge Kozinski is explicitly homophobic, and so I am urging my LGBT mentees not to apply to him either. (To be clear, these strike me as behaviors that, if true, should deter all of my mentees from applying to clerk for Judge Kozinski, but I understand that these types of behaviors have a more direct effect on some individuals).

Given that the Judge-clerk relationship puts the clerk in such close quarters with a very powerful authority figure, are there other judges who I should be warning my mentees, particularly my female or LGBT mentees, to stay away from because of their reputations for harassing law clerks?

Jesus. Brave, brave anon.

This strikes me as an excellent use of TLS. Let's all use the anonymous posting feature to spread vicious third-hand rumors about federal judges. What fun!

So people can only discuss judges and how they treat clerks non-anon? Is that your point here?

Look, if a poster wants to share a personal story about an experience with a judge, then I think the use of the anonymous feature would be appropriate (though, if the story were a damaging one, I would hope that the mods would make some effort to assess whether the poster was actually in a position to have had the experience).

But I think a damaging third-hand rumor in the passive voice--like "I have been warned that Judge Kozinski is explicitly homophobic"--is a different kettle of fish. It probably shouldn't be posted at all. And if it is to be posted, I don't see the need for anonymity.

this is gonna be my new go-to. i had the kozinski clerkship in the bag but my homosexuality kept me from accepting.

To be fair, OP is correct that Kozinski's chambers are full of horrors (he yells at his clerks all the time; they are required to be there until 1 AM most days even when there isn't work for them to do; he intentionally instills competition amongst them over who he will recommend to SCOTUS; and sexual harassment allegations have been repeated by enough people that I'd think it more than reasonable to be wary). I get that TLS is a tricky spot to go for for this kind of information, but given the culture of silence about judge behavior that exists in most circles (especially for judges less high profile than the Koz), there aren't many other sources besides anonymous internet messaging.

Koz's feeding power seems to be waning a lot incidentally. Probably because there's been enough whispering to cause people with options to look elsewhere.

no doubt Kozinski's chambers have a bad rap and he's done some weird shit (http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-kozi ... story.html), but the last statement is simply ridiculous. No way to discern a feeder pattern, especially not because of his practices in chambers.

How can a guy who seems like such a zany weird fella (like a class clown in a way) be such a jerk to his clerks? It just doesn't feel like it fits with that personality. I've read the horror stories, so I'm not doubting y'all. It's just so weird.

[anon sequitur]

But the article said that a number of the former clerks had nothing bad to say, so it was probably just imagined on the part of the clerks who complained. Co-clerks are so close to each other that if it was happening to some it would have to be known by the others, right?

[Caesar Salad]

You'd offer serious clerkship advice based on TLS hearsay? Your lucky mentees.

Guess they were lucky

[runinthefront]

Many of the posts in this thread did not age well at all. But I think we can separate the immediately dismissive and/or flippant posters from the ones merely suggesting that TLS was an improper forum for dispersing third-hand information.

(I mean, I still disagree with the latter point. But it's not like the news article affects the question/argument of whether TLS is the appropriate forum)

But yeah. Not one of the better threads on TLS.

[thebrownnote]

But the article said that a number of the former clerks had nothing bad to say, so it was probably just imagined on the part of the clerks who complained. Co-clerks are so close to each other that if it was happening to some it would have to be known by the others, right?

The funny part about this is that it does appear that some of the harassed clerks did in fact tell some of their co-clerks at the time. But they probably didn't tell all of their co-clerks because they knew they wouldn't be believed.

Here's hoping there's about to be a reckoning in the judiciary. The only people less accountable than politicians. There have to be hundreds of these stories out there that the victims have been too afraid to tell.

And Kozinski remaining on the bench is a powerful argument against life-time tenure with little to no removal process.

Edited to add this quote from the article:

"The Post reached out to dozens of Kozinski’s former clerks and externs for this story. Many of those who returned messages said they experienced no harassment of any kind, and their experience — which entailed grueling work into the wee hours of the morning every day — was a rewarding one. They noted Kozinski’s wry sense of humor.

Those who talked to The Post about negative experiences said that they felt his behavior went beyond bad jokes or that they felt personally targeted."

It's almost like some people had different experiences than others, and not everyone had the same information, despite working in the same chambers.

[bk1]

Many of the posts in this thread did not age well at all.

quelle surprise

[Nebby]

I worked with a judge whose name has been mentioned ITT. (Mods: PM me privately for proof, if you must.) The rumors here are garbage, in my own experience.
I'm all for sharing horror stories you know are true from your own experience, but it's another thing to play a tormented game of telephone when it comes to reputations.

Were you a female or LGBT law clerk?

Ah, yes. The unassailable "but you're not high enough on the victim totem pole to have an opinion that counts" argument.

Lol

[OneTwoThreeFour]

You'd offer serious clerkship advice based on TLS hearsay? Your lucky mentees.

This strikes me as an excellent use of TLS. Let's all use the anonymous posting feature to spread vicious third-hand rumors about federal judges. What fun!

Honestly--most federal judges, even very well respected ones, are not up to date on contemporary PC norms and make wildly inappropriate statements in chambers. We're talking about a 60+ year old demographic here. Are all of your parents--or grandparents--super on point with this stuff?

Interesting thread to come back to. Wonder if he'll resign.

[lavarman84]

Here's my shocked face

CC:

To be fair, OP is correct that Kozinski's chambers are full of horrors (he yells at his clerks all the time; they are required to be there until 1 AM most days even when there isn't work for them to do; he intentionally instills competition amongst them over who he will recommend to SCOTUS; and sexual harassment allegations have been repeated by enough people that I'd think it more than reasonable to be wary). I get that TLS is a tricky spot to go for for this kind of information, but given the culture of silence about judge behavior that exists in most circles (especially for judges less high profile than the Koz), there aren't many other sources besides anonymous internet messaging.

Koz's feeding power seems to be waning a lot incidentally. Probably because there's been enough whispering to cause people with options to look elsewhere.

no doubt Kozinski's chambers have a bad rap and he's done some weird shit (http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-kozi ... story.html), but the last statement is simply ridiculous. No way to discern a feeder pattern, especially not because of his practices in chambers.

How can a guy who seems like such a zany weird fella (like a class clown in a way) be such a jerk to his clerks? It just doesn't feel like it fits with that personality. I've read the horror stories, so I'm not doubting y'all. It's just so weird.

Uhhhhh . . .

[Nebby]

Couldn't tell if jaqing off

[jd20132013]

Not going to lie I'm enjoying this post Hoc dunking

[Mr. Blackacre]

Also - straight from the horse's mouth, for the idiots ITT.

2. I want the law clerk handbook distributed by the judiciary to explicitly state that judges may not compel clerk silence on matters like the ones I have described here. I also believe that there should be a person, or persons, or an institution that clerks can turn to in order to find answers. I understand that there are reasons why no such institution exists now—judicial independence and confidentiality must be fiercely protected. I also believe that the judiciary is capable of coming up with a solution to this problem.

3. I want greater honesty regarding judicial clerkships. Law students are often told in glowing terms that a clerkship will be the best year in their career. They are never told that it might, in fact, be their worst—and that if it is their worst, they may be compelled to lie to others in the name of loyalty to their judge.

I also want law schools to start giving our best and brightest students accurate advice about clerkships. Students are often told that if they receive a clerkship offer from a judge, they must say “yes” without hesitation. I cannot imagine a situation more rife for abuse. Students should feel free to say no to any judge who triggers their discomfort for any reason.

The full statement is worth a read: http://www.courtneymilan.com/metoo/kozinski.html

[bruinfan10]

lol i was so pumped to come back and read this thread after that article came out. did not disappoint.

[ggocat]

edit to delete stupid comment

[bk1]

Is it really a "serious" question when you're going with a "guys, Roy Moore is a pederast, not a pedophile" type response here?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Serious question, does this sound like "pornography"?

One set of images she remembered was of college-age students at a party where “some people were inexplicably naked while everyone else was clothed.” Another was a sort of digital flip book that allowed users to mix and match heads, torsos and legs to create an image of a naked woman.

Clearly not workplace appropriate material or conduct. Just questioning the words used in the article because this sounds a lot like the material that Kozinski got in trouble for like a decade ago... not necessarily pornography (which suggests to me sexual arousal/intent).

Not sure why sexual arousal/intent wouldn’t be be at play in the above things?

[ggocat]

Nah, y'all are right, ignore.

[canoe]

hah what'd i say bitches

this is why i originally said censoring TLS-ers from being able to anonymously talk about bad judges is so egregious. there ain't no smoke without fire. to those who were so protective of judges that they were fearful of comments in some small-ass internet forum wrongfully blowing up into something much bigger: dontcha think that if it ever even gets to that point, there must be a reason for things to have soured to that point in the first place?

tls-ers aren't going to just make up fake shit about judges. this isn't fake news like those sponsored by robert mercer where there's a party willfully manipulating information to the benefit of a certain actor. sure, exaggeration of facts may occur but why become so aggressively defensive regarding this aspect as it pertains to judges? you know this is the internet, right? anything and everything on the internet should be taken with a bit of salt and looked at with a critical eye. to use this as an excuse for discouraging negative anecdotes regarding judges is OTL

and regarding kozinski, i'll say it again: he's a creep who's into perverse, kinky shit. if you're an attractive female clerk (bonus points for being asian), your creep-radar is going to be off the charts. i'm sure anyone remotely thinking about clerking for him knows he got busted years ago for hosting weird kinky porn on his server which he was dumb enough to not even secure. he aggressively pits his clerks against each other and gets off on it. knowing his personality and his god-complex, he certainly won't step down easily after these recent allegations. his ego is through the roof when really, the only reason why he has any value as a judge to aspiring clerks is that he's friends with kennedy. take away kennedy and he's really not so special anymore. if you still wanna clerk for kozinski after this, that's cool with me but i sure as heck ain't apologizing for "spreading a rumor" about kozinski. what, you expect me to provide documentation and other additional "supporting evidence" for my claims? LMAO get real. this isn't a fucking courtroom.

[TrustMeImALawStudent]

this is why i originally said censoring TLS-ers from being able to anonymously talk about bad judges is so egregious. there ain't no smoke without fire.

+1

[lavarman84]

hah what'd i say bitches

this is why i originally said censoring TLS-ers from being able to anonymously talk about bad judges is so egregious. there ain't no smoke without fire. to those who were so protective of judges that they were fearful of comments in some small-ass internet forum wrongfully blowing up into something much bigger: dontcha think that if it ever even gets to that point, there must be a reason for things to have soured to that point in the first place?

tls-ers aren't going to just make up fake shit about judges. this isn't fake news like those sponsored by robert mercer where there's a party willfully manipulating information to the benefit of a certain actor. sure, exaggeration of facts may occur but why become so aggressively defensive regarding this aspect as it pertains to judges? you know this is the internet, right? anything and everything on the internet should be taken with a bit of salt and looked at with a critical eye. to use this as an excuse for discouraging negative anecdotes regarding judges is OTL

and regarding kozinski, i'll say it again: he's a creep who's into perverse, kinky shit. if you're an attractive female clerk (bonus points for being asian), your creep-radar is going to be off the charts. i'm sure anyone remotely thinking about clerking for him knows he got busted years ago for hosting weird kinky porn on his server which he was dumb enough to not even secure. he aggressively pits his clerks against each other and gets off on it. knowing his personality and his god-complex, he certainly won't step down easily after these recent allegations. his ego is through the roof when really, the only reason why he has any value as a judge to aspiring clerks is that he's friends with kennedy. take away kennedy and he's really not so special anymore. if you still wanna clerk for kozinski after this, that's cool with me but i sure as heck ain't apologizing for "spreading a rumor" about kozinski. what, you expect me to provide documentation and other additional "supporting evidence" for my claims? LMAO get real. this isn't a fucking courtroom.

I mean this honestly, thank you. You were 100% right and hopefully helped people avoid a bad situation.

[JusticeJackson]

.