Can't decide between clerkships...

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Which one to choose?

SDNY
12
29%
9th Cir.
29
71%
 
Total votes: 41

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Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:46 am

Because of an amazing luck and generosity of the judges, I find myself in a fortunate position holding two offers right now -- SDNY and 9th (non-feeder). I need to make a decision fast, and I cannot financially afford to do both. I'm torn between the two, as I didn't anticipate that I could get either one. Here are some factors

- Will be working in NY Litigation in the immediate future
- Unsure if I will stay in NY owing to the living expenses + pace of work; somewhat interested in moving to West Coast down the road, but this is a very, very tentative thought
- Unsure if I am interested in appellate work, but definitely interested in transitioning to a lit boutique down the line
- I also dream of retiring as an adjunct prof one day (I know... I know... pipe dream)
- I liked both judges, so personality fit is not much of an issue.
- 9th Circuit judge has been on the bench much, much longer than SDNY judge.
- SDNY judge has had a career very similar to the one I'd like to have (except for the ultimate judgeship), but the 9th circuit judge seems more personally invested in their clerks. 9th Circuit judge's career path doesn't resemble positions that I'm interested in (while of course, they've done amazing things).
- SDNY judge's past hires seem pretty "traditional" whereas 9th Circuit judge's past hire seems kind of all over the place and seems to emphasize "personal connection"/"unique aspects" (If this matters at all??)
- The 9th circuit location COL is much much cheaper than SDNY COL. But I don't enjoy the location where the 9th circuit is, and I also don't know anyone where 9th circuit is located.
- Side note: I hate moving, and I'm already in NYC.
- This might be really, really stupid, but I do care about "prestige" factor, in so far as the clerkship's mobility nation-wide so that I can keep my options open.

Thanks for your thoughts and comments in advance.

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Lovely Ludwig Van

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Lovely Ludwig Van » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:56 am

9th Cir. all day. You probably won't be in NYC long term, and SDNY, IME, has limited value outside of NYC. 9th Cir., on the other hand, is a bomb you can drop anywhere in the country, including NYC. The only way I'd go SDNY, is if you're 100% sure you want to be in NYC long term and/or your goal is to get into USAO-SDNY.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby mjb447 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:59 am

I think it'll be hard to go wrong (congrats). I might opt for COA because there's an outside chance you want a lit boutique or academia, you may want to move to the West Coast (sounds like you already have the NYC job so no add'l East Coast boost needed), and you're concerned about general 'prestige' (tho SDNY obv has lots of very prestigious judges), esp if COA judge seems to be more invested in his clerks. I wouldn't think much about location/ties during the clerkship: it's just one year of a long career, and it sounds like you'll come away with a bit more money.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:25 am

If you were 100% sure that you wanted to do securities litigation at the trial court level or wanted to be in NYC for the rest of your life, I think SDNY makes more sense. But you're not, so I'd clerk on the Ninth (unless it's Kleinfeld, in which case LOL run far away). Most of the other judges on the Ninth who fit your description (Thomas, Bybee, Hawkins, and N.R. Smith come to mind but there are potentially others) are reportedly great bosses, FYI.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Torts Illustrated » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:37 am

I think this decision really has to come down to the actual judges involved. If you feel comfortable naming either or both of them, in confidence, PM me.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby rpupkin » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:22 am

I voted SDNY, which makes more sense given your career goals. If you want to go to a litigation boutique and you're only going to do one clerkship, you'll get more mileage out of a district court clerkship. I also strongly disagree with the posters suggesting that the value of a SDNY clerkship is limited to New York. Just in terms of prestige (which really shouldn't be much of a factor anyway), I think of a SDNY clerkship as being on par with a non-feeder 9th circuit clerkship. And I practice in California.

For whatever reason, TLS'ers tend to overvalue the "prestige" of clerking for a non-feeder on the 9th. It's just not that big of a deal.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Jchance » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:16 am

why not both? worth it imo.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:30 am

Jchance wrote:why not both? worth it imo.


Agree with this. You should ask both judges if one is willing to defer your offer for a year and explain that you have two offers and would really like to do both clerkships (unless you don't want to clerk for 2 years). Both judges I clerked for would have tried to accommodate this request.

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quiver

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby quiver » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Jchance wrote:why not both? worth it imo.


Agree with this. You should ask both judges if one is willing to defer your offer for a year and explain that you have two offers and would really like to do both clerkships (unless you don't want to clerk for 2 years). Both judges I clerked for would have tried to accommodate this request.
This would be the best outcome. But assuming that it's not an option, I think it's a tough call on which clerkship to take. It might help to just go through your own factors.

- Will be working in NY Litigation in the immediate future
Points toward SDNY.

- Unsure if I will stay in NY owing to the living expenses + pace of work; somewhat interested in moving to West Coast down the road, but this is a very, very tentative thought
I agree with rpupkin that an SDNY clerkship is mobile, but I could certainly see it helping in the hiring process to say "I clerked in this circuit and I'd like to come back". Probably points slightly toward CA9.

- Unsure if I am interested in appellate work, but definitely interested in transitioning to a lit boutique down the line
This is a tough factor. It is true, as rpupkin points out, that the SDNY clerkship will give you more practical experience in terms of preparing you to practice in a lit boutique. But circuit clerkships are generally seen as more prestigious and may therefore help you get hired at your lit boutique of choice. If by "down the line" you're thinking that you'd try to move to a lit boutique on the west coast (coinciding with your second factor), then I'd lean toward the CA9 clerkship for this factor. If looking for an NYC lit boutique, maybe a wash?

- I also dream of retiring as an adjunct prof one day (I know... I know... pipe dream)
Points slightly toward CA9.

- I liked both judges, so personality fit is not much of an issue.
Wash.

- 9th Circuit judge has been on the bench much, much longer than SDNY judge.
This could cut either way, depending on the judge. Without more info, I'd say it's a wash.

- SDNY judge has had a career very similar to the one I'd like to have (except for the ultimate judgeship), but the 9th circuit judge seems more personally invested in their clerks. 9th Circuit judge's career path doesn't resemble positions that I'm interested in (while of course, they've done amazing things).
I would give a slight edge to CA9 here. SDNY judge having the same path is nice, but how does that help you if s/he is not invested in helping you get there?

- SDNY judge's past hires seem pretty "traditional" whereas 9th Circuit judge's past hire seems kind of all over the place and seems to emphasize "personal connection"/"unique aspects" (If this matters at all??)
Not sure how/why this matters. Wash.

- The 9th circuit location COL is much much cheaper than SDNY COL. But I don't enjoy the location where the 9th circuit is, and I also don't know anyone where 9th circuit is located.
Wash?

- Side note: I hate moving, and I'm already in NYC.
Points toward SDNY.

- This might be really, really stupid, but I do care about "prestige" factor, in so far as the clerkship's mobility nation-wide so that I can keep my options open.
Both clerkships are mobile. But given my earlier comments, I say a slight edge for CA9 on this front.

So the final tally (assuming equal weight of all your factors) is: 2 for SDNY vs. 4-5 for CA9. The factors that fall in CA9's favor are not landslides, though, so you would not be irrational in choosing SDNY. Overall, you can't go wrong either way. Congrats!

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby clerk1251 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:17 am

Jchance wrote:why not both? worth it imo.


I vote for both also. While you say you can't afford to do both financially, I'd challenge you to really figure out if that's true. All of the judiciary, including clerks, just got a 2% raise. NYC has pretty good locality adjustment as well. You didn't say if you are coming right from school, but assuming you are, you'll be getting $68k to start. You'll be bumped up to over $82k for the second clerkship as you move up a grade (adjusted for that locality). You'll also be getting a nice clerkship bonus, upwards of $70k if you do two clerkships and then go back to biglaw. Now, if you have work for a year before clerking, those numbers change to $82k for the first clerkship and $97k for the second.

I didn't think I'd be able to afford to clerk, and while I'm living on a very tight budget (mainly due to having foolishly refinanced my loans and having a very hefty monthly premium), I am still getting by.

It's hard to land even one of those clerkships - to land two, you really shouldn't pass up this kind of opportunity. Someone recently gave me some great advice, which was that careers are long. There's no need to rush through it. Don't worry too much about the immediate financial aspects. The long term value to your career will surely outweigh any fancy dinners you have to skip for a little while.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:21 am

Not that I was ever in your position, but I agree that it's not like there's a bad choice here. I tend to agree with rpupkin and lean towards SDNY, though again, either will be a great option.

A few random thoughts:

- re: retiring as an adjunct prof - that's a totally different goal than actually getting a full time job as a tenure-track prof. If you wait till retirement schools are going to be looking at your practice experience and if you spend your time in biglaw they'll probably be happy to have you (at least relatively speaking), since those fields tend to be underrepresented in aspiring profs (aspiring profs are usually people who hate biglaw stuff). Also, working as a adjunct is totally different than getting a tt job, in particular because schools are going to want to know what practice areas you can teach rather than care about you publishing anything. Just based on the number of people I know who have taught classes at their local law schools, I don't think being able to teach when you retire is going to be remotely dependent on which clerkship you do now. If you look at adjuncts at your law school I think you'll find they're there because of their experience, not their qualifications (aside from the fact that most biglaw partners have pretty excellent qualifications to get into that position). Of course if I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "retire as an adjunct prof" these comments may not be as pertinent.

- do you, personally, have a preference as to doing trial work or appellate work? I think it's worth considering just how you like to spend your day. Appellate clerkships tend to be much quieter day to day, maybe even more isolating, whereas trial clerkships have a lot more variety, in that there are lots of different moving parts and you'll experience them all. (Though appellate chambers have more clerks to interact with.) Though both will give you a lot of writing/research experience, they hone different skills. I tend to think that a trial-level clerkship is more immediately helpful for practice, but maybe you'd like a year immersing yourself in looking at the law in a sort of bigger-picture way.

- I also think not having to move is a huge thing, especially since you're concerned about how much these will cost to do. Moving from NY to anywhere in the 9th Cir isn't cheap or easy.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby clerk1251 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:39 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Not that I was ever in your position, but I agree that it's not like there's a bad choice here. I tend to agree with rpupkin and lean towards SDNY, though again, either will be a great option.

A few random thoughts:

- re: retiring as an adjunct prof - that's a totally different goal than actually getting a full time job as a tenure-track prof. If you wait till retirement schools are going to be looking at your practice experience and if you spend your time in biglaw they'll probably be happy to have you (at least relatively speaking), since those fields tend to be underrepresented in aspiring profs (aspiring profs are usually people who hate biglaw stuff). Also, working as a adjunct is totally different than getting a tt job, in particular because schools are going to want to know what practice areas you can teach rather than care about you publishing anything. Just based on the number of people I know who have taught classes at their local law schools, I don't think being able to teach when you retire is going to be remotely dependent on which clerkship you do now. If you look at adjuncts at your law school I think you'll find they're there because of their experience, not their qualifications (aside from the fact that most biglaw partners have pretty excellent qualifications to get into that position). Of course if I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "retire as an adjunct prof" these comments may not be as pertinent.

- do you, personally, have a preference as to doing trial work or appellate work? I think it's worth considering just how you like to spend your day. Appellate clerkships tend to be much quieter day to day, maybe even more isolating, whereas trial clerkships have a lot more variety, in that there are lots of different moving parts and you'll experience them all. (Though appellate chambers have more clerks to interact with.) Though both will give you a lot of writing/research experience, they hone different skills. I tend to think that a trial-level clerkship is more immediately helpful for practice, but maybe you'd like a year immersing yourself in looking at the law in a sort of bigger-picture way.

- I also think not having to move is a huge thing, especially since you're concerned about how much these will cost to do. Moving from NY to anywhere in the 9th Cir isn't cheap or easy.


While my advice above was to take them both, I'd echo these thoughts if, at the end of the day, you really are only able to take one.

I am on my second clerkship at for a district court. I love the experience and it has provided me an invaluable foundation for my career as a trial attorney. I have little interest in appellate practice, and seeing how things operate behind the scenes of a court I will likely be before in my career has been incredible.

I also had to move for this clerkship. I moved somewhere new, where I didn't know anyone. Aside from the stress and expense of just actually moving my belongings, it was difficult to find an apartment not being in the area or being familiar with it. On top of that, it is hard being somewhere new without having any friends in the area. You will be working a lot and that really only leaves you weekends for yourself, but having friends in the area to spend some time with makes a huge difference!

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Lincoln » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:39 am

Which SDNY judge? Current SDNY clerk here happy to dish on QOL in different chambers (to the extent I know). PM me if you want.

Generally, your life as an SDNY clerk will be much more hectic (and, in my opinion, more fun) than as a COA clerk. More cases, more decisions, faster turn-around. COA will be a little more of a deep-dive into discreet issues and cases.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby JusticeJackson » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:51 pm

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Last edited by JusticeJackson on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby jd20132013 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:50 am

I voted for sdny. Most of the factors you mentioned don't strike me as weighty in one side or the other so it's basically that you don't want to move.

Do as much research on judge personalities as you can.

I take you at your word that you can't do both, there's no question that it's a pay cut that some folks can't afford.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Mr. Blackacre » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:31 pm

Lovely Ludwig Van wrote:SDNY, IME, has limited value outside of NYC. 9th Cir., on the other hand, is a bomb you can drop anywhere in the country, including NYC.


Lol. Someone doesn't like New York...

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:19 am

OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby mjb447 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.
It's probably not as big an issue as you think. If they both gave you a few days to think it over, they probably won't be caught off guard by your withdrawal, particularly if you told them about your situation. An email to the JA or other contact person is usually fine - just be direct and respectful.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:36 am

mjb447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.
It's probably not as big an issue as you think. If they both gave you a few days to think it over, they probably won't be caught off guard by your withdrawal, particularly if you told them about your situation. An email to the JA or other contact person is usually fine - just be direct and respectful.

So neither judge actually knows about each other's offer, mainly because they just gave me the offer, told me I have some time to think it over. I didn't really get a chance to bring up the fact that there was another offer pending. For some reason I felt that bringing it up at that time kind of sounded rude/boastful? But maybe I should've done it then. Should I explain to them when declining that "Actually, I had another offer pending around the same time... etc etc etc"?

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby mjb447 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.
It's probably not as big an issue as you think. If they both gave you a few days to think it over, they probably won't be caught off guard by your withdrawal, particularly if you told them about your situation. An email to the JA or other contact person is usually fine - just be direct and respectful.

So neither judge actually knows about each other's offer, mainly because they just gave me the offer, told me I have some time to think it over. I didn't really get a chance to bring up the fact that there was another offer pending. For some reason I felt that bringing it up at that time kind of sounded rude/boastful? But maybe I should've done it then. Should I explain to them when declining that "Actually, I had another offer pending around the same time... etc etc etc"?

I wouldn't. You really don't owe a thorough explanation, just notice to the judge that you won't be working for him. I just thought it might have come up some other way, which would be another point in support of "neither judge will be blindsided by this." The fact that each gave you a few days to actually think about the decision is still a decent sign (not certain) that a no is okay.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby rpupkin » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.
It's probably not as big an issue as you think. If they both gave you a few days to think it over, they probably won't be caught off guard by your withdrawal, particularly if you told them about your situation. An email to the JA or other contact person is usually fine - just be direct and respectful.

So neither judge actually knows about each other's offer, mainly because they just gave me the offer, told me I have some time to think it over. I didn't really get a chance to bring up the fact that there was another offer pending. For some reason I felt that bringing it up at that time kind of sounded rude/boastful? But maybe I should've done it then. Should I explain to them when declining that "Actually, I had another offer pending around the same time... etc etc etc"?

Yes, you should explain when declining that you are taking another clerkship. You don't have to say that you "had another offer pending around the same time." Just tell Judge X that you got an offer from Judge Y that you're going to accept it, and maybe explain why. I know a couple of folks who were in your exact situation—one accepted with the district court judge and turned down the COA judge, the other did the opposite. Both told the rejected judge about where they were going and why. I think it's just basic courtesy.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby mjb447 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:05 am

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here -- thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm gonna talk to a few more former clerks to get more info on judge's personality tomorrow and make a decision.. but having said that, how do I even go about declining an offer???? This is so awkward.
It's probably not as big an issue as you think. If they both gave you a few days to think it over, they probably won't be caught off guard by your withdrawal, particularly if you told them about your situation. An email to the JA or other contact person is usually fine - just be direct and respectful.

So neither judge actually knows about each other's offer, mainly because they just gave me the offer, told me I have some time to think it over. I didn't really get a chance to bring up the fact that there was another offer pending. For some reason I felt that bringing it up at that time kind of sounded rude/boastful? But maybe I should've done it then. Should I explain to them when declining that "Actually, I had another offer pending around the same time... etc etc etc"?

Yes, you should explain when declining that you are taking another clerkship. You don't have to say that you "had another offer pending around the same time." Just tell Judge X that you got an offer from Judge Y that you're going to accept it, and maybe explain why. I know a couple of folks who were in your exact situation—one accepted with the district court judge and turned down the COA judge, the other did the opposite. Both told the rejected judge about where they were going and why. I think it's just basic courtesy.

I was unclear earlier; I think you should probably say that you're declining one judge's offer to accept another - it's probably the most "acceptable" reason to decline a clerkship and will make it seem like you didn't set out to waste the judge's time. How much detail you want to provide about where you're going and why is up to you; I just wouldn't provide an explanation that discusses the timing of the offers or ventures into "etc. etc. etc." in terms of length.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Jchance wrote:why not both? worth it imo.


Agree with this. You should ask both judges if one is willing to defer your offer for a year and explain that you have two offers and would really like to do both clerkships (unless you don't want to clerk for 2 years). Both judges I clerked for would have tried to accommodate this request.

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:30 am

Theres absolutely no reason IME that you couldn't do both if you approach this with some degree of tact. That's clearly the best option. Congratulations

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Re: Can't decide between clerkships...

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:50 am

My advice may be coming in too late but I would take the COA over SDNY for two reasons. First, the lower COL would be a big factor for me. Although, one of my profs clerked for SDNY and he told me he lived in Connecticut and took a train in everyday so his COL was substantially lower. Though the trade-off is having to spend 3 to 4 hours commuting everyday which would absolutely suck. Second, while a SDNY clerkship is very prestigious, I think the COA clerkship is more prestigious.

Curious what OP decides. Congratulations on finding yourself in such a "difficult" position. I'm sure either will be a great experience that will open many doors for you down the road.



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